9 ms·

They've done some brilliant things for developers this year, but sadly shipped a giant spyware operating system at the same time. From what I've read people are

They've done some brilliant things for developers this year, but sadly shipped a giant spyware operating system at the same time. From what I've read people are still trying to determine everything it's calling home.

sz4kerto 11y ago
It just got closer to the other leading operating systems (iOS and Android). They claim that they need telemetry, which I find reasonable from a technical standpoint. The lack of opt-out is annoying, however, given Microsoft's bad public image I think people would opt out in masses if they provided this option. So I don't think the data they send back is 'spyware' in the sense that they want to know more about you and then sell it or use it to sell other stuff to you. But I don't have proof. :)
- restalis 11y ago
  "The lack of opt-out is annoying" No, the lack of opt-out is suspect, and in this context the claimed "need for telemetry" is plain intelligence-insulting! What really is sought in this sadistic game from their part is the option of having greater power/control over the devices installed with their product. Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt about that!
- criddell 11y ago
  They need all that information for things like Cortana to do it's magic. For those of us that don't need or want Cortana (or Siri or OK Google) on the desktop, they shouldn't need my data. Telemetry after a crash or with regards to OS function usage seems OK to me, but I don't want my calendar, phone book, or email sent to the cloud for analysis. I don't see how small medical offices can use Windows anymore (big ones will use Enterprise Windows and shut all that stuff off). If the calendar and email are being sent to the cloud, then that sounds like a potential HIPAA violation. I don't understand why consumers can't easily disable all data sharing with Microsoft. I don't think Apple is as bad and now I'm thinking about buying my first Mac in a long time and running a VM for the few Windows applications I absolutely need.
  - yuhong 11y ago
    I recommend that you read this: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85...
    - criddell 11y ago
      That's pretty comprehensive. Thanks! I only have access to Windows 10 Pro and would like to turn off all personalization options. All I want my operating system to do is support the applications I want to run. I've found some of the Powershell scripts that do things like uninstall the XBox music app (or whatever it's called), but after an update it just reappears. It's very frustrating.
- Silhouette 11y ago
  So I don't think the data they send back is 'spyware' in the sense that they want to know more about you and then sell it or use it to sell other stuff to you. Unfortunately, given that the other sting in Windows 10 is automatic, compulsory updates, even if your hypothesis is true today there is no guarantee it will remain true tomorrow. I'm a little sad about the whole Windows 10 situation, really. From the more credible commentary I've read now that the dust has settled, it seems like a reasonable OS under the hood. It also seems like with enough effort you could mitigate or work around the worst of what is there, maybe even in some of the non-Enterprise versions. However, those privacy and control issues are complete deal-breakers for me. Recent behaviour by Microsoft has abused the Windows update mechanism for earlier versions that I do use, and it has also included a disturbing number of outright broken updates. Unlike a surprising number of professional reviewers, I am therefore not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt any longer. If I can't turn things off reliably on my own computer if I don't want them to happen, and I can't trust that questionable things will be opt-in instead of opt-out, then unfortunately none of the rest matters very much for either my own personal or my businesses' professional purchasing decisions.
  - at-fates-hands 11y ago
    >> If I can't turn things off reliably on my own computer if I don't want them to happen, and I can't trust that questionable things will be opt-in instead of opt-out It seems to me MS is simply going to the "let us take care of your system, we know what's best for you" approach - which is not only insulting, but highly suspect. When you make using an OS compulsory on several fronts (many of which I can't control), I really have to ask myself if I should try making a move to a more open, more secure OS.
    - yuhong 11y ago
      Yea, I think it is called "Windows as a service".
    - Silhouette 11y ago
      In the case of updates, I wouldn't mind so much if they had them on-by-default for security and stability updates, because that will usually be the best choice for users who don't know any better. However, preventing power users and small businesses from controlling their own systems even if they want to is quite a different thing, and of course it makes a difference only if Microsoft want you to have something that you actively do not want.
raesene9 11y ago
What makes you feel that Windows 10 is any more of a "spyware OS" than Google Android?
- magicalist 11y ago
  The fact that there's a big old checkbox next to "Help improve your Android experience by automatically sending diagnostic and usage data to Google" is a great start.
  - raesene9 11y ago
    And you think that's the only checkbox which controls info. being sent to google...... What about google now?
- antod 11y ago
  So the debate is whether it may or may not be as bad as one of the worst alternatives. That it is even comparable is damning enough.
  - raesene9 11y ago
    Nope the debate is whether it's worse than other widely used alternatives. If all mainstream OS' are doing a specific thing (gathering information about users to fuel certain features), why should MS face particular approbrium for doing the same?
niuzeta 11y ago
I'm still rather happy with 7, and I don't think I'll make a switch. If only they would stop pestering me to update... It's stipulated that 7 will be the new XP, and 2015 may be the first year to start XP-ization of 7.
- at-fates-hands 11y ago
  I'm on 7 Ultimate and updated a while back only to find out my year old video card wasn't compatible so I couldn't run dual monitors and went back to 7. No worries though, they're shipping all the invasive spyware in coming 7 and 8 updates anyways so we'll both be assimilated soon enough.
paulojreis 11y ago
They were always big on doing "brilliant" things for developers, at least since my career started (around 2006). I went to a few Microsoft developer events and it was really obvious that they cared a lot about developer experience. End-user experience, on the other hand, was "less brilliant".
DyslexicAtheist 11y ago
which remains for me the main reason why regardless of it is now being cool again I still avoid it like the plague. another funny thing is that they have improved their OS security so much that it is now considered harder than Linux, and Apple
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  Sorry, but I'm classifying your first link as FUD. (And the second has no clear conclusion.) It's are incredibly misleading, as it: - doesn't take into account the severity of the bugs; - doesn't take into account the time to fix the bugs, or if they are still open; - bundles some OSs, while separating Windows on several different categories; - compares OSs with incredibly different lifespans; - compares OSs with incredibly different amount of included software. It's an article created to make Windows look artificially good, nothing more than that.
- exprI 11y ago
  Little criticism, followed by a huge compliment. Usually shilling. Considered “harder” by whom? Windows enthusiasts have certainly considered Windows to be more sophisticated since the first public version of NT, and more secure by XP SP2, at the very latest.
  - DyslexicAtheist 11y ago
    >> Considered “harder” by whom? theqruq had this in one of his slides. I'll try to find the link. sorry I do not know the meaning of shilling in this context, English is not my native language.
    - flubert 11y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill
  - DyslexicAtheist 11y ago
    slide 36. but the whole presentation is excellent: https://grugq.github.io/presentations/COMSEC%20beyond%20encryption.pdf https://grugq.github.io/presentations/COMSEC%20beyond%20encr...
antome 11y ago
I was hoping someone would be updating a list of IPs and domains which you could simply block at the router level
- sp332 11y ago
  Edit: better link https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking/blob/master/run.py#L252 https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking/blob/master/...
Zikes 11y ago
There are some things I love about Windows 10, like virtual desktops (welcome to the 90s Microsoft!) but there are some things that irk me: * Pretty login screen photos, with a link at the top-right saying "Like what you see?". I click the link expecting to get the source for the image, instead I get "Cool, we'll show you more like that." So much for that nice new desktop background I was hoping for. * Automatic updates leak RAM like a bloody sieve. I have 16GB of RAM, and every time it downloads an automatic update that RAM will inevitably fill to the brim. Eventually it'll also fill the page file, and the whole thing virtually grinds to a halt until I finally reboot and install the updates. * Automatic update finishes and I see a friendly message saying "don't worry, all your files are right where you left them!" Two minutes later I see "Program X is not compatible with this version of Windows, so we uninstalled it for you." * Frequently resets default programs to MS applications, usually as a result of a large automatic update. The inconsistency of this is the weirdest bit, it never resets the default browser, but every few weeks I have to re-set the default PDF reader and image browser. * Managing screen resolutions/positions is not "advanced". Microsoft needs to sort out their configuration screens, this half-arsed hybrid Win10/Windows 9X system is just getting worse and worse.
- eco 11y ago
  You wouldn't happen to have a Killer Network chipset, would you? There has been a bug in it for a long time (since Windows 8, at least) that causes it to gobble up memory in a particularly frustrating way because the utilization doesn't show up in Task Manager. Installing the latest version of the Killer Networking driver fixes it [1]. You can also prevent the bug by disabling the Windows Network Data Usage Monitoring Driver by changing the registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Services\Ndu to "4" (disabling it). 1. http://www.killernetworking.com/support/driver-downloads http://www.killernetworking.com/support/driver-downloads
- soared 11y ago
  I've had many of these same problems, with the addition of automatic driver updates breaking my display and forcing me to spend an hour fixing their (M$, lenovo, I don't care. read: Not My) mistake. I've searched, but have you found a list of those login screen pictures? I want them.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- lstamour 11y ago
  You can avoid it by using AES-XTS now, same as on Linux and TrueCrypt: http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-10-version-1511-gets-new-xts-aes-bitlocker-encryption-algorithm http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-10-version-1511-gets-new... See also: http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2014/04/30/you-dont-want-xts/ http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2014/04/30/you-dont-want-xts/
  - vox_mollis 11y ago
    Oh wow, I wasn't aware of this inclusion. Thanks.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      AES-XTS is also not authenticated. The whole "diffuser" thing is a pretty silly controversy.
ifdefdebug 11y ago
It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Just don't use a Microsoft account. Just chose custom configurations during setup. Doesn't a default Android phone also do a lot of calling home? And Apple phones? Why is it so special when it's Windows?
- frik 11y ago
  > It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Not true at all! It's impossible, without a hardware firewall. Their kernel network driver whitelists several microsoft domains and IP address ranges. What's worse Microsoft back-ported that phone-home crap and ships them as updates to Windows 7 and 8.x (of course the coincidentally stopped writting descriptions for their Windows updates). Not even mentioning how they force end users to upgrade to Windows 10 by displaying Windows 10 ads as popup dialogs and renaming Windows update buttons to click on the Upgrade button by accident, etc. It will hurt Microsoft's reputation a lot. With Android and iOS an end user with a little bit of knowledge (power user) can deactivate the analytics, cloud sync and error reporting "features" by changing a handful of settings. Windows 10 resets the privacy settings every major update (Threshold 2), they go even as far as change the name of exe files and registry keys. It's not too late to fix Win10 and MS reputation though, do something in 2016.
  - lstamour 11y ago
    It can be turned off in version 1511 for Enterprise and Education editions, under Group Policy: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85... See screenshot and guide at http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/30/windows-10-and-privacy/ http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/30/windows-10-and-privacy/ Alternatively, disable this service if concerned: http://www.ghacks.net/2015/11/19/microsoft-rena-and-telemetry/ http://www.ghacks.net/2015/11/19/microsoft-rena-and-telemetr...
    - criddell 11y ago
      I asked at the Microsoft store for an Enterprise edition of Windows and they told me it's not sold to consumers (they tried to tell me I want Windows 10 Professional). I'm not a student or a teacher, so I don't think I can buy the education edition either.
romanovcode 11y ago
>spyware operating system I'm not sure how is W10 different than Android/MacOS. Actually, on Windows you at least can skip the account registration. On mac you can't even get updates if you don't register. Android doesn't even let you use the OS properly without account.
- clort 11y ago
  > Android doesn't even let you use the OS properly without account. I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you explain further? I will say, that I've had a couple of Android phones for perhaps 4-5 years now and while I initially did use the bundled OS on my first one, I have never signed in with a Google account.. I use CyanogenMod now on a Nexus S with no Google apps and the phone doesn't seem to be without features that I might desire, indeed there are vast number of developer options that I don't use. Certainly there are third party apps that I know exist that I just can't get (F-Droid is limited sometimes) but that is not really OS functionality in my opinion.
  - sz4kerto 11y ago
    You are an outlier. For 99% of the users (not an accurate figure, of course) using Android without the Play Store is not viable.
    - burntcookie90 11y ago
      Using Google's android is not, but you could get amazon, or whatever. It's part of the ecosystem, if you buy into Amazon's you get their store, if you buy into Google's you get their's. If you want neither, you have to figure that out, or a new company needs to handle that situation.
      - vetinari 11y ago
        Even Google's android is viable to use without Google Account. I've used a (company-issued) Sony phone for two years with in a such way, that the only account on the phone was for our Exchange, with built-in E-mail, Calendar, Contacts apps. Granted, the Play Store was not available, Youtube and Maps didn't work, but they were not the reason why I had that phone.

sz4kerto 11y ago

It just got closer to the other leading operating systems (iOS and Android). They claim that they need telemetry, which I find reasonable from a technical standpoint. The lack of opt-out is annoying, however, given Microsoft's bad public image I think people would opt out in masses if they provided this option. So I don't think the data they send back is 'spyware' in the sense that they want to know more about you and then sell it or use it to sell other stuff to you. But I don't have proof. :)

restalis 11y ago
"The lack of opt-out is annoying" No, the lack of opt-out is suspect, and in this context the claimed "need for telemetry" is plain intelligence-insulting! What really is sought in this sadistic game from their part is the option of having greater power/control over the devices installed with their product. Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt about that!
criddell 11y ago
They need all that information for things like Cortana to do it's magic. For those of us that don't need or want Cortana (or Siri or OK Google) on the desktop, they shouldn't need my data. Telemetry after a crash or with regards to OS function usage seems OK to me, but I don't want my calendar, phone book, or email sent to the cloud for analysis. I don't see how small medical offices can use Windows anymore (big ones will use Enterprise Windows and shut all that stuff off). If the calendar and email are being sent to the cloud, then that sounds like a potential HIPAA violation. I don't understand why consumers can't easily disable all data sharing with Microsoft. I don't think Apple is as bad and now I'm thinking about buying my first Mac in a long time and running a VM for the few Windows applications I absolutely need.
- yuhong 11y ago
  I recommend that you read this: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85...
  - criddell 11y ago
    That's pretty comprehensive. Thanks! I only have access to Windows 10 Pro and would like to turn off all personalization options. All I want my operating system to do is support the applications I want to run. I've found some of the Powershell scripts that do things like uninstall the XBox music app (or whatever it's called), but after an update it just reappears. It's very frustrating.
Silhouette 11y ago
So I don't think the data they send back is 'spyware' in the sense that they want to know more about you and then sell it or use it to sell other stuff to you. Unfortunately, given that the other sting in Windows 10 is automatic, compulsory updates, even if your hypothesis is true today there is no guarantee it will remain true tomorrow. I'm a little sad about the whole Windows 10 situation, really. From the more credible commentary I've read now that the dust has settled, it seems like a reasonable OS under the hood. It also seems like with enough effort you could mitigate or work around the worst of what is there, maybe even in some of the non-Enterprise versions. However, those privacy and control issues are complete deal-breakers for me. Recent behaviour by Microsoft has abused the Windows update mechanism for earlier versions that I do use, and it has also included a disturbing number of outright broken updates. Unlike a surprising number of professional reviewers, I am therefore not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt any longer. If I can't turn things off reliably on my own computer if I don't want them to happen, and I can't trust that questionable things will be opt-in instead of opt-out, then unfortunately none of the rest matters very much for either my own personal or my businesses' professional purchasing decisions.
- at-fates-hands 11y ago
  >> If I can't turn things off reliably on my own computer if I don't want them to happen, and I can't trust that questionable things will be opt-in instead of opt-out It seems to me MS is simply going to the "let us take care of your system, we know what's best for you" approach - which is not only insulting, but highly suspect. When you make using an OS compulsory on several fronts (many of which I can't control), I really have to ask myself if I should try making a move to a more open, more secure OS.
  - yuhong 11y ago
    Yea, I think it is called "Windows as a service".
  - Silhouette 11y ago
    In the case of updates, I wouldn't mind so much if they had them on-by-default for security and stability updates, because that will usually be the best choice for users who don't know any better. However, preventing power users and small businesses from controlling their own systems even if they want to is quite a different thing, and of course it makes a difference only if Microsoft want you to have something that you actively do not want.

raesene9 11y ago

What makes you feel that Windows 10 is any more of a "spyware OS" than Google Android?

magicalist 11y ago
The fact that there's a big old checkbox next to "Help improve your Android experience by automatically sending diagnostic and usage data to Google" is a great start.
- raesene9 11y ago
  And you think that's the only checkbox which controls info. being sent to google...... What about google now?
antod 11y ago
So the debate is whether it may or may not be as bad as one of the worst alternatives. That it is even comparable is damning enough.
- raesene9 11y ago
  Nope the debate is whether it's worse than other widely used alternatives. If all mainstream OS' are doing a specific thing (gathering information about users to fuel certain features), why should MS face particular approbrium for doing the same?

niuzeta 11y ago

I'm still rather happy with 7, and I don't think I'll make a switch. If only they would stop pestering me to update... It's stipulated that 7 will be the new XP, and 2015 may be the first year to start XP-ization of 7.

at-fates-hands 11y ago
I'm on 7 Ultimate and updated a while back only to find out my year old video card wasn't compatible so I couldn't run dual monitors and went back to 7. No worries though, they're shipping all the invasive spyware in coming 7 and 8 updates anyways so we'll both be assimilated soon enough.

paulojreis 11y ago

They were always big on doing "brilliant" things for developers, at least since my career started (around 2006). I went to a few Microsoft developer events and it was really obvious that they cared a lot about developer experience. End-user experience, on the other hand, was "less brilliant".

DyslexicAtheist 11y ago

which remains for me the main reason why regardless of it is now being cool again I still avoid it like the plague. another funny thing is that they have improved their OS security so much that it is now considered harder than Linux, and Apple

marcosdumay 11y ago
Sorry, but I'm classifying your first link as FUD. (And the second has no clear conclusion.) It's are incredibly misleading, as it: - doesn't take into account the severity of the bugs; - doesn't take into account the time to fix the bugs, or if they are still open; - bundles some OSs, while separating Windows on several different categories; - compares OSs with incredibly different lifespans; - compares OSs with incredibly different amount of included software. It's an article created to make Windows look artificially good, nothing more than that.
exprI 11y ago
Little criticism, followed by a huge compliment. Usually shilling. Considered “harder” by whom? Windows enthusiasts have certainly considered Windows to be more sophisticated since the first public version of NT, and more secure by XP SP2, at the very latest.
- DyslexicAtheist 11y ago
  >> Considered “harder” by whom? theqruq had this in one of his slides. I'll try to find the link. sorry I do not know the meaning of shilling in this context, English is not my native language.
  - flubert 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill
- DyslexicAtheist 11y ago
  slide 36. but the whole presentation is excellent: https://grugq.github.io/presentations/COMSEC%20beyond%20encryption.pdf https://grugq.github.io/presentations/COMSEC%20beyond%20encr...

antome 11y ago

I was hoping someone would be updating a list of IPs and domains which you could simply block at the router level

sp332 11y ago
Edit: better link https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking/blob/master/run.py#L252 https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking/blob/master/...

Zikes 11y ago

There are some things I love about Windows 10, like virtual desktops (welcome to the 90s Microsoft!) but there are some things that irk me: * Pretty login screen photos, with a link at the top-right saying "Like what you see?". I click the link expecting to get the source for the image, instead I get "Cool, we'll show you more like that." So much for that nice new desktop background I was hoping for. * Automatic updates leak RAM like a bloody sieve. I have 16GB of RAM, and every time it downloads an automatic update that RAM will inevitably fill to the brim. Eventually it'll also fill the page file, and the whole thing virtually grinds to a halt until I finally reboot and install the updates. * Automatic update finishes and I see a friendly message saying "don't worry, all your files are right where you left them!" Two minutes later I see "Program X is not compatible with this version of Windows, so we uninstalled it for you." * Frequently resets default programs to MS applications, usually as a result of a large automatic update. The inconsistency of this is the weirdest bit, it never resets the default browser, but every few weeks I have to re-set the default PDF reader and image browser. * Managing screen resolutions/positions is not "advanced". Microsoft needs to sort out their configuration screens, this half-arsed hybrid Win10/Windows 9X system is just getting worse and worse.

eco 11y ago
You wouldn't happen to have a Killer Network chipset, would you? There has been a bug in it for a long time (since Windows 8, at least) that causes it to gobble up memory in a particularly frustrating way because the utilization doesn't show up in Task Manager. Installing the latest version of the Killer Networking driver fixes it [1]. You can also prevent the bug by disabling the Windows Network Data Usage Monitoring Driver by changing the registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Services\Ndu to "4" (disabling it). 1. http://www.killernetworking.com/support/driver-downloads http://www.killernetworking.com/support/driver-downloads
soared 11y ago
I've had many of these same problems, with the addition of automatic driver updates breaking my display and forcing me to spend an hour fixing their (M$, lenovo, I don't care. read: Not My) mistake. I've searched, but have you found a list of those login screen pictures? I want them.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

lstamour 11y ago
You can avoid it by using AES-XTS now, same as on Linux and TrueCrypt: http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-10-version-1511-gets-new-xts-aes-bitlocker-encryption-algorithm http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-10-version-1511-gets-new... See also: http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2014/04/30/you-dont-want-xts/ http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2014/04/30/you-dont-want-xts/
- vox_mollis 11y ago
  Oh wow, I wasn't aware of this inclusion. Thanks.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    AES-XTS is also not authenticated. The whole "diffuser" thing is a pretty silly controversy.

ifdefdebug 11y ago

It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Just don't use a Microsoft account. Just chose custom configurations during setup. Doesn't a default Android phone also do a lot of calling home? And Apple phones? Why is it so special when it's Windows?

frik 11y ago
> It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Not true at all! It's impossible, without a hardware firewall. Their kernel network driver whitelists several microsoft domains and IP address ranges. What's worse Microsoft back-ported that phone-home crap and ships them as updates to Windows 7 and 8.x (of course the coincidentally stopped writting descriptions for their Windows updates). Not even mentioning how they force end users to upgrade to Windows 10 by displaying Windows 10 ads as popup dialogs and renaming Windows update buttons to click on the Upgrade button by accident, etc. It will hurt Microsoft's reputation a lot. With Android and iOS an end user with a little bit of knowledge (power user) can deactivate the analytics, cloud sync and error reporting "features" by changing a handful of settings. Windows 10 resets the privacy settings every major update (Threshold 2), they go even as far as change the name of exe files and registry keys. It's not too late to fix Win10 and MS reputation though, do something in 2016.
- lstamour 11y ago
  It can be turned off in version 1511 for Enterprise and Education editions, under Group Policy: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85... See screenshot and guide at http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/30/windows-10-and-privacy/ http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/30/windows-10-and-privacy/ Alternatively, disable this service if concerned: http://www.ghacks.net/2015/11/19/microsoft-rena-and-telemetry/ http://www.ghacks.net/2015/11/19/microsoft-rena-and-telemetr...
  - criddell 11y ago
    I asked at the Microsoft store for an Enterprise edition of Windows and they told me it's not sold to consumers (they tried to tell me I want Windows 10 Professional). I'm not a student or a teacher, so I don't think I can buy the education edition either.

romanovcode 11y ago

>spyware operating system I'm not sure how is W10 different than Android/MacOS. Actually, on Windows you at least can skip the account registration. On mac you can't even get updates if you don't register. Android doesn't even let you use the OS properly without account.

clort 11y ago
> Android doesn't even let you use the OS properly without account. I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you explain further? I will say, that I've had a couple of Android phones for perhaps 4-5 years now and while I initially did use the bundled OS on my first one, I have never signed in with a Google account.. I use CyanogenMod now on a Nexus S with no Google apps and the phone doesn't seem to be without features that I might desire, indeed there are vast number of developer options that I don't use. Certainly there are third party apps that I know exist that I just can't get (F-Droid is limited sometimes) but that is not really OS functionality in my opinion.
- sz4kerto 11y ago
  You are an outlier. For 99% of the users (not an accurate figure, of course) using Android without the Play Store is not viable.
  - burntcookie90 11y ago
    Using Google's android is not, but you could get amazon, or whatever. It's part of the ecosystem, if you buy into Amazon's you get their store, if you buy into Google's you get their's. If you want neither, you have to figure that out, or a new company needs to handle that situation.
    - vetinari 11y ago
      Even Google's android is viable to use without Google Account. I've used a (company-issued) Sony phone for two years with in a such way, that the only account on the phone was for our Exchange, with built-in E-mail, Calendar, Contacts apps. Granted, the Play Store was not available, Youtube and Maps didn't work, but they were not the reason why I had that phone.