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Seems to me like it might be WhatsApp that's on a power trip. What would an American judge do if WhatsApp were to ignore a lawful subpoena?
by andreyf 11y ago
Seems to me like it might be WhatsApp that's on a power trip. What would an American judge do if WhatsApp were to ignore a lawful subpoena?
- msh 11y agoBut its not a lawful subpoena. What's app is a America n company, so it should only respond to American supoenas. Just as a American judge should not be able to order a Brazilian company to do anything before having it go though the Brazilian courts.
- bjt 11y agoA Brazilian company with a presence in the US could absolutely be subject to a US court order without any court in Brazil needing to be involved. You don't get to dodge the laws of a country you're operating in just because your HQ is in some other country.
- msh 11y agoBut whatsapp don't have a business presence in Brazil. Just because they have users there is not the same as a business presence.
- sdm 11y agoDoes whatsapp make money from users in Brazil? Then yes, it has a business presence in Brazil.
- msh 11y agoNo, that's not the international legal definition for a business presence. My point is that Brazil should follow legal procedures and have a American judge issue a supena. That's what a MLAT is for.
- lagadu 11y agoThey are following legal procedures. Brazilian ones, which are the only ones they have to care about. Why would they possibly care in the slightest what American courts have to say?
- msh 11y agoBecause they want to enforce their law against a american company. There are a reason many countries have MLAT's
- hhandoko 11y agoGood point. I suppose this could be a reason why they require a third party (the telcos) to block access to WhatsApp, as they are operating under Brazilian law.
- Daishiman 11y agoThey have paid users.
- gotchange 11y ago> What's app is a America n company, so it should only respond to American supoenas. American exceptionalism and supremacy at work.
- msh 11y agoI am not American. I expect it to work the other way around too. Brazilian companies should not respond to foreign subpoenas unless validated by Brazilian courts.
- gotchange 11y agoDoes WhatsApp have any physical presence in Brazil? Did they incorporate any subsidiary there?
- andreyf 11y agoI don't know, but for the sake of argument, I think it's OK to say no. If I have a website that is reachable on the internet that hosts a wiki and logs access, does that mean I am doing business in all countries that have internet access? Can any of their courts compel me to disclose visitors from their country? What if I refuse to provide visitor logs, is it OK for them to block my site at the border? What about to order a private teleco to block my site? I have opinions, but I don't see any obvious answers one way or the other.
- gotchange 11y agoAll the points you raised are legitimate but if WhatsApp or any other company has a physical presence in a certain country, that country authorities have the SOVEREIGN right to uphold the laws of the land and bring transgressors to justice and offering & guaranteeing them a fair trial.
- sangnoir 11y agoIt looks like you want to have your cake and eat it: > If I have a website that is reachable on the internet that hosts a wiki and logs access, does that mean I am doing business in all countries that have internet access? I'm guessing your answer to this question is "No". However, since you feel you are not doing business in Brazil (for example),then why complain when Brazil blocks your site? If your answer is "Yes" and you agree that you are in business in all countries, then you should be compelled to follow the laws of the countries whose populace are earning you wealth. Morally and pragmatically, I feel that if you gain financial benefit from a country, you should follow their laws. If you find the laws unconscionable - refuse to do business there.
- morgante 11y ago> What would an American judge do if WhatsApp were to ignore a lawful subpoena? Fine WhatsApp. Not compel all telcos to block it...
- _delirium 11y agoContempt of court in the U.S. escalates considerably beyond fines if the company doesn't start complying quickly. The court can jail the company's officers, issue an injunction forcing them to stop doing business, instruct customs to blockade them at the U.S. border (in the case of companies selling physical goods), and a range of other things.
- morgante 11y agoYes, that's all true. But they don't compel third parties to block the company's app.
- dogma1138 11y agoThat's when it's a US company if it's foreign it will end up on the US trade department sanction list which will blacklist them world wide not only in the US and will prevent any entity which operates in the US from doing any sort of business with them. There is nothing that a Brazilian judge can do to whatsapp other than to harm them financially cutting off 100m users even in a developing market sends a clear sign.