7 ms·

This is insane, this judge must be on a power trip. WhatsApp is now part of Brazilian social life and economy. Everyone here is part of many groups of friends,

by tabacof 11y ago

This is insane, this judge must be on a power trip. WhatsApp is now part of Brazilian social life and economy. Everyone here is part of many groups of friends, family or workmates, that is where most instant communication happens. In my company, our deployment engineers, who usually are on very remote places with bad and unreliable internet, rely on WhatsApp. I'm not saying this is the best practice, but this is simply the way Brazil works right now. Even the mobile phone companies offer plans with free WhatsApp connection, because that is what most people here care about. Another example: In Brazil, 9 in 10 doctors use WhatsApp to talk to patients (http://www.cityam.com/230372/digital-health-wearables-and-apps-9-in-10-brazilian-doctors-use-whatsapp-to-talk-to-patients http://www.cityam.com/230372/digital-health-wearables-and-ap...). To disregard all the people and businesses that rely on WhatsApp for whatever reason is unbelievable. But this is not without precedent, once another Brazilian judge blocked YouTube for a whole day because it refused to take down a celebrity video. This says a lot about the over-sized, inefficient, and stupid state we have, always meddling and intervening.

andreyf 11y ago
Seems to me like it might be WhatsApp that's on a power trip. What would an American judge do if WhatsApp were to ignore a lawful subpoena?
- msh 11y ago
  But its not a lawful subpoena. What's app is a America n company, so it should only respond to American supoenas. Just as a American judge should not be able to order a Brazilian company to do anything before having it go though the Brazilian courts.
  - bjt 11y ago
    A Brazilian company with a presence in the US could absolutely be subject to a US court order without any court in Brazil needing to be involved. You don't get to dodge the laws of a country you're operating in just because your HQ is in some other country.
    - msh 11y ago
      But whatsapp don't have a business presence in Brazil. Just because they have users there is not the same as a business presence.
      - sdm 11y ago
        Does whatsapp make money from users in Brazil? Then yes, it has a business presence in Brazil.
        msh 11y ago
        No, that's not the international legal definition for a business presence. My point is that Brazil should follow legal procedures and have a American judge issue a supena. That's what a MLAT is for.
        lagadu 11y ago
        They are following legal procedures. Brazilian ones, which are the only ones they have to care about. Why would they possibly care in the slightest what American courts have to say?
        msh 11y ago
        Because they want to enforce their law against a american company. There are a reason many countries have MLAT's
      - hhandoko 11y ago
        Good point. I suppose this could be a reason why they require a third party (the telcos) to block access to WhatsApp, as they are operating under Brazilian law.
      - Daishiman 11y ago
        They have paid users.
  - gotchange 11y ago
    > What's app is a America n company, so it should only respond to American supoenas. American exceptionalism and supremacy at work.
    - msh 11y ago
      I am not American. I expect it to work the other way around too. Brazilian companies should not respond to foreign subpoenas unless validated by Brazilian courts.
      - gotchange 11y ago
        Does WhatsApp have any physical presence in Brazil? Did they incorporate any subsidiary there?
        andreyf 11y ago
        I don't know, but for the sake of argument, I think it's OK to say no. If I have a website that is reachable on the internet that hosts a wiki and logs access, does that mean I am doing business in all countries that have internet access? Can any of their courts compel me to disclose visitors from their country? What if I refuse to provide visitor logs, is it OK for them to block my site at the border? What about to order a private teleco to block my site? I have opinions, but I don't see any obvious answers one way or the other.
        gotchange 11y ago
        All the points you raised are legitimate but if WhatsApp or any other company has a physical presence in a certain country, that country authorities have the SOVEREIGN right to uphold the laws of the land and bring transgressors to justice and offering & guaranteeing them a fair trial.
        sangnoir 11y ago
        It looks like you want to have your cake and eat it: > If I have a website that is reachable on the internet that hosts a wiki and logs access, does that mean I am doing business in all countries that have internet access? I'm guessing your answer to this question is "No". However, since you feel you are not doing business in Brazil (for example),then why complain when Brazil blocks your site? If your answer is "Yes" and you agree that you are in business in all countries, then you should be compelled to follow the laws of the countries whose populace are earning you wealth. Morally and pragmatically, I feel that if you gain financial benefit from a country, you should follow their laws. If you find the laws unconscionable - refuse to do business there.
- morgante 11y ago
  > What would an American judge do if WhatsApp were to ignore a lawful subpoena? Fine WhatsApp. Not compel all telcos to block it...
  - _delirium 11y ago
    Contempt of court in the U.S. escalates considerably beyond fines if the company doesn't start complying quickly. The court can jail the company's officers, issue an injunction forcing them to stop doing business, instruct customs to blockade them at the U.S. border (in the case of companies selling physical goods), and a range of other things.
    - morgante 11y ago
      Yes, that's all true. But they don't compel third parties to block the company's app.
      - dogma1138 11y ago
        That's when it's a US company if it's foreign it will end up on the US trade department sanction list which will blacklist them world wide not only in the US and will prevent any entity which operates in the US from doing any sort of business with them. There is nothing that a Brazilian judge can do to whatsapp other than to harm them financially cutting off 100m users even in a developing market sends a clear sign.
        necessity 11y ago
        Two wrongs make a right?
        dogma1138 11y ago
        Where is the wrong here? When company does not cooperate you force it to do so by any means available to you.
beagle3 11y ago
It also says that, in a contained but nontrivial aspect of life, Brazil has given up its sovereignty to WhatsApp (and by transitive ownership, Facebook, and by transitive law enforcement, USA/NSA). And for various reasons, it is applying for a similar serf status at Telegram as we speak. Think about it: Mark Zuckerberg can task his employees with an elaborate "find and replace" on all brazillian texts, replacing e.g. "sugar" with "salt", and it will just happen. Think that's improbable? Facebook has been toying with your emotions before [0] [0] http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/02/facebook-apologises-psychological-experiments-on-users http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/02/facebook-a...
- necessity 11y ago
  People voluntarily use WhatsApp because they consider it the best service. If it starts replacing "sugar" with "salt" I'm sure people will voluntarily start using something else. What should not happen is government force you to use something else.
  - zeofig 11y ago
    Before, I was worried about facebook spying on me, but then I just asked all my friends to switch to spiderwizard (or whatever it's called) and now everything's fine. Meanwhile, in reality...
    - VanillaLime 11y ago
      . . . my friends didn't want to switch, so instead I simply stopped using Facebook and started using Telegram/email/SMS/IRC/any of a dozen other communication methods to talk with my friends?
barbolo 11y ago
I'm a client of Bradesco, a popular bank in Brazil. I've chosen to migrate my account to a digital account called "Bradesco Prime Digital". The main communication channel with my account manager is WhatsApp, so he can take the day off. I'm also selling my house and I'm pretty sure that every Real Estate agents in São Paulo use WhatsApp as the main communication channel. So no visits today. I was having a conversation with the pediatrician of my children, so no answers today on what to do with my baby vomiting. It's not so serious to make a call, but it was fine to send a message. My mother is 63 and sends WhatsApp messages every day to me, so no mommy messages today. Well, it's not all that bad... I think today may be a very productive day for me.
- hudell 11y ago
  After reading this and other messages like this, I feel like I'm living on a bubble. I hardly ever use whatsapp and didn't know it was so widely used by everyone around me.

by tabacof 11y ago

andreyf 11y ago

Seems to me like it might be WhatsApp that's on a power trip. What would an American judge do if WhatsApp were to ignore a lawful subpoena?

msh 11y ago
But its not a lawful subpoena. What's app is a America n company, so it should only respond to American supoenas. Just as a American judge should not be able to order a Brazilian company to do anything before having it go though the Brazilian courts.
- bjt 11y ago
  A Brazilian company with a presence in the US could absolutely be subject to a US court order without any court in Brazil needing to be involved. You don't get to dodge the laws of a country you're operating in just because your HQ is in some other country.
  - msh 11y ago
    But whatsapp don't have a business presence in Brazil. Just because they have users there is not the same as a business presence.
    - sdm 11y ago
      Does whatsapp make money from users in Brazil? Then yes, it has a business presence in Brazil.
      - msh 11y ago
        No, that's not the international legal definition for a business presence. My point is that Brazil should follow legal procedures and have a American judge issue a supena. That's what a MLAT is for.
        lagadu 11y ago
        They are following legal procedures. Brazilian ones, which are the only ones they have to care about. Why would they possibly care in the slightest what American courts have to say?
        msh 11y ago
        Because they want to enforce their law against a american company. There are a reason many countries have MLAT's
    - hhandoko 11y ago
      Good point. I suppose this could be a reason why they require a third party (the telcos) to block access to WhatsApp, as they are operating under Brazilian law.
    - Daishiman 11y ago
      They have paid users.
- gotchange 11y ago
  > What's app is a America n company, so it should only respond to American supoenas. American exceptionalism and supremacy at work.
  - msh 11y ago
    I am not American. I expect it to work the other way around too. Brazilian companies should not respond to foreign subpoenas unless validated by Brazilian courts.
    - gotchange 11y ago
      Does WhatsApp have any physical presence in Brazil? Did they incorporate any subsidiary there?
      - andreyf 11y ago
        I don't know, but for the sake of argument, I think it's OK to say no. If I have a website that is reachable on the internet that hosts a wiki and logs access, does that mean I am doing business in all countries that have internet access? Can any of their courts compel me to disclose visitors from their country? What if I refuse to provide visitor logs, is it OK for them to block my site at the border? What about to order a private teleco to block my site? I have opinions, but I don't see any obvious answers one way or the other.
        gotchange 11y ago
        All the points you raised are legitimate but if WhatsApp or any other company has a physical presence in a certain country, that country authorities have the SOVEREIGN right to uphold the laws of the land and bring transgressors to justice and offering & guaranteeing them a fair trial.
        sangnoir 11y ago
        It looks like you want to have your cake and eat it: > If I have a website that is reachable on the internet that hosts a wiki and logs access, does that mean I am doing business in all countries that have internet access? I'm guessing your answer to this question is "No". However, since you feel you are not doing business in Brazil (for example),then why complain when Brazil blocks your site? If your answer is "Yes" and you agree that you are in business in all countries, then you should be compelled to follow the laws of the countries whose populace are earning you wealth. Morally and pragmatically, I feel that if you gain financial benefit from a country, you should follow their laws. If you find the laws unconscionable - refuse to do business there.
morgante 11y ago
> What would an American judge do if WhatsApp were to ignore a lawful subpoena? Fine WhatsApp. Not compel all telcos to block it...
- _delirium 11y ago
  Contempt of court in the U.S. escalates considerably beyond fines if the company doesn't start complying quickly. The court can jail the company's officers, issue an injunction forcing them to stop doing business, instruct customs to blockade them at the U.S. border (in the case of companies selling physical goods), and a range of other things.
  - morgante 11y ago
    Yes, that's all true. But they don't compel third parties to block the company's app.
    - dogma1138 11y ago
      That's when it's a US company if it's foreign it will end up on the US trade department sanction list which will blacklist them world wide not only in the US and will prevent any entity which operates in the US from doing any sort of business with them. There is nothing that a Brazilian judge can do to whatsapp other than to harm them financially cutting off 100m users even in a developing market sends a clear sign.
      - necessity 11y ago
        Two wrongs make a right?
        dogma1138 11y ago
        Where is the wrong here? When company does not cooperate you force it to do so by any means available to you.

beagle3 11y ago

It also says that, in a contained but nontrivial aspect of life, Brazil has given up its sovereignty to WhatsApp (and by transitive ownership, Facebook, and by transitive law enforcement, USA/NSA). And for various reasons, it is applying for a similar serf status at Telegram as we speak. Think about it: Mark Zuckerberg can task his employees with an elaborate "find and replace" on all brazillian texts, replacing e.g. "sugar" with "salt", and it will just happen. Think that's improbable? Facebook has been toying with your emotions before [0] [0] http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/02/facebook-apologises-psychological-experiments-on-users http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/02/facebook-a...

necessity 11y ago
People voluntarily use WhatsApp because they consider it the best service. If it starts replacing "sugar" with "salt" I'm sure people will voluntarily start using something else. What should not happen is government force you to use something else.
- zeofig 11y ago
  Before, I was worried about facebook spying on me, but then I just asked all my friends to switch to spiderwizard (or whatever it's called) and now everything's fine. Meanwhile, in reality...
  - VanillaLime 11y ago
    . . . my friends didn't want to switch, so instead I simply stopped using Facebook and started using Telegram/email/SMS/IRC/any of a dozen other communication methods to talk with my friends?

barbolo 11y ago

I'm a client of Bradesco, a popular bank in Brazil. I've chosen to migrate my account to a digital account called "Bradesco Prime Digital". The main communication channel with my account manager is WhatsApp, so he can take the day off. I'm also selling my house and I'm pretty sure that every Real Estate agents in São Paulo use WhatsApp as the main communication channel. So no visits today. I was having a conversation with the pediatrician of my children, so no answers today on what to do with my baby vomiting. It's not so serious to make a call, but it was fine to send a message. My mother is 63 and sends WhatsApp messages every day to me, so no mommy messages today. Well, it's not all that bad... I think today may be a very productive day for me.

hudell 11y ago
After reading this and other messages like this, I feel like I'm living on a bubble. I hardly ever use whatsapp and didn't know it was so widely used by everyone around me.