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The French regime again showing its ugly authoritarian and statist face with these draconian bills. It wasn't enough for them to put environmentalists under hou

The French regime again showing its ugly authoritarian and statist face with these draconian bills. It wasn't enough for them to put environmentalists under house arrest and subject innocent people to humiliating mandatory reporting to different police stations 3 times a day or obligatory curfew for certain people or neighborhoods without any judicial oversight. [0] I knew it from the beginning that they would abuse the State of Emergency decree and turn the lives of people esp minorities into a living hell. [0]: https://wiki.laquadrature.net/%C3%89tat_urgence/Recensement# https://wiki.laquadrature.net/%C3%89tat_urgence/Recensement# ((FR))

ultramancool 11y ago
I'm getting really afraid of these authoritarian opportunists. Seems much more likely to have an impact on my life than terrorist attacks at least...
- TallGuyShort 11y ago
  I'm genuinely more afraid of the people who are afraid right now than I am of the people who they think I should be afraid of. The anti-Muslim rhetoric (e.g. yelling "All Muslims are terrorists" at town meetings) scares the hell out of me. How easily could that attitude be shifted towards any arbitrary group with just one or two tragic events?
  - cryoshon 11y ago
    On one hand, it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor that is funding and directing terror attacks. On the other hand, Muslims are people too, and it is extremely unjust to punish all Muslims for the actions of a radical sect. I think that Europe is in danger of lurching rightward and tempting the return of ethno-religious cleansing. Fascism is not pretty, and the danger for Europeans is real.
    - Mikeb85 11y ago
      Unfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absolve themselves of what their neighbors and family members are doing, radicalism will never be eliminated. Since extremist sects recruit from within moderate sects, the moderates need to be more diligent in truly eliminating the extremist element. That means more consequences to the community. Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation because right now, we're just kicking the can down the road. Disclaimer - this of course doesn't touch on the root causes of extremism, namely the Saudi state and its support of Wahhabism, as well as the overthrowing of several moderate states in the Middle East during the 20th century, as well as the demise of Arab Nationalism (and secularism) and rampant inequality and poverty in many Arab and Muslim countries. Unfortunately the proverbial Genie is out of the bottle...
      - Kristine1975 11y ago
        >Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation That sounds a bit like Sam Harris advocating for genocide in his book End of Faith: Sure it would be a crime, but otherwise millions would die.
        Mikeb85 11y ago
        Except I'm not advocating genocide. Just pointing out that, if more tolerable solutions don't work, and it does become a perceived choice of 'us' vs 'them', people will choose themselves 10/10 times.
        jacquesm 11y ago
        Murdering millions because millions might die? Forgive me if I can't follow you.
        11y ago
  - beachstartup 11y ago
    you have reason to be concerned. see: japanese american internment. that actually happened.
  - rubyfan 11y ago
    > How easily could that attitude be shifted towards any arbitrary group with just one or two tragic events? It will be much easier with more unchecked authoritarian law in place.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tosseraccount 11y ago
Sent from a computer made in China.
GrumpyBen 11y ago
The police found more than 300 illegal weapons during their searches. People that were put under house arrests have a file on them because of their links with terrorists or terrorist organizations. I don't feel the government is abusing the state of emergency, I just feel they should have done all this before the attacks.
- stefantalpalaru 11y ago
  > terrorist organizations Like those pesky ecologists that endanger the state by stopping economic growth and slowing down job creation at the cost of increased pollution, right?
  - GrumpyBen 11y ago
    They're not ecologists, they're anti-globalization anarchists that protested against a new airport by destroying shops in downtown Nantes. They recently threw at the police candles that people left at the memorial for the Paris attacks. I consider myself an ecologist but I have no sympathy for these people.
    - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
      Can you read French? https://wiki.laquadrature.net/%C3%89tat_urgence/Recensement#Assignation_.C3.A0_r.C3.A9sidence_de_militants_.28.C3.A9cologistes_et.2Fou_extr.C3.AAme-gauche.29 https://wiki.laquadrature.net/%C3%89tat_urgence/Recensement#... People who commit crimes should be fined or arrested. These are preventive house arrests for crimes that they might commit in the future. You really don't see the problem with this?
      - GrumpyBen 11y ago
        They also banned alcohol sales at night in some places for the same simple reason: the police has better things to do right now than dealing with drunk people or anarchists
stefantalpalaru 11y ago
And this is the left in power. It's going to get worse when the right and the extreme right get their turn.
- cryoshon 11y ago
  Isn't this absolutely terrifying? People being rounded up, house arrest, cities locked down, violence against immigrants. It's a very bad look, and it's especially hard to criticize the response in the wake of the attacks. Rather than fight and complain piecemeal in response to government oversteps in their attempts to stop terror, dissenters need to formulate a concrete affirmative plan for dealing with terror while maintaining civil liberties and privacy. I'm not sure exactly what this plan would look like, but without something organized to push for, the government is going to keep getting their way and making everyone less free.
- alex_duf 11y ago
  I think it has nothing to do with political side anymore. Just irrational reaction to fear from the public, and over-exploitation of that fear to gain more power from the government. It's not pretty to watch. [edit] Fear is irrational by definition, I'm not judging on that, and understand why people are afraid.
  - wutbrodo 11y ago
    > I think it has nothing to do with political side anymore. Really? I find this conclusion a little baffling, to be frank. Without saying which side of the political spectrum is more "correct", one can hardly deny that the right includes stronger reactions to perceived threats, practically by definition. You can see it in the rhetoric, the policies, the constituents, etc of both parties. Even now, I would be surprised if policies like these were seeing equal amounts of dissent from the right and from the left (note that this is a different axis than liberal/conservative).
- gotchange 11y ago
  The mainstream left in France mainly the Socialists are as awful when it comes to individual liberties as their peers in the center right. A good deal of French people love the nanny state and their government to meddle into their private business and run their lives but they have their differences on how to achieve that and which flavor to pick.
pmoriarty 11y ago
"Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear." -- Bertrand Russell But if you think this is something, wait until Le Pen comes to power. It's not just France either. Authoritarianism is rife in much of the rest of Europe, and the rest of the world, for that matter. France is a particularly interesting case, however. As on the one hand they're the land of Voltaire, of the French Revolution, of the ideals of "liberté, égalité, fraternité", and on the other of authoritarianism, colonialism, and xenophobia.
- ekianjo 11y ago
  Dont make me laugh. The revolutionaries were talking about fraternity while chopping heads by the 100 000s. Study your History my friend. France has always had an authoritarian face.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - Kristine1975 11y ago
    There was also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 >The Paris massacre of 1961 was a massacre in Paris on 17 October 1961, during the Algerian War (1954–62). Under orders from the head of the Parisian police, Maurice Papon, the French National Police attacked a demonstration of some 30,000 pro-National Liberation Front (FLN) Algerians. >After 37 years of denial, in 1998 the French government acknowledged 40 deaths, although there are estimates of over 200. >Many demonstrators died when they were violently herded by police into the River Seine, with some thrown from bridges after being beaten unconscious. Other demonstrators were killed within the courtyard of the Paris police headquarters after being arrested and delivered there in police buses. Here's hoping history doesn't repeat itself.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  > Authoritarianism is rife in much of the rest of Europe, and the rest of the world, for that matter. Europe's recent trend towards democracy was never really more than a trend. Democracy requires peace to flourish, without it people are going to value strongman leadership. Europe has only very recently shook off the threat of war. Nobody expects another great war, but it still takes a few hundred years before democratic institutions become robust enough to resist all the different ways the area can slide back into tyranny. Europe is not yet one polity, but they're moving in that direction. Once people start thinking of themselves as European first, and French / German / Italian / etc. second, that's when you know Europe is really ready for democracy. It takes a while. It wasn't that long ago that United States citizens thought of themselves as citizens of their state first, then of the Union, the civil war cured us of that defect. Perhaps Europe needs one more war to draw them together. Maybe a few of them. With luck those wars won't have to be martial in nature.

ultramancool 11y ago

I'm getting really afraid of these authoritarian opportunists. Seems much more likely to have an impact on my life than terrorist attacks at least...

TallGuyShort 11y ago
I'm genuinely more afraid of the people who are afraid right now than I am of the people who they think I should be afraid of. The anti-Muslim rhetoric (e.g. yelling "All Muslims are terrorists" at town meetings) scares the hell out of me. How easily could that attitude be shifted towards any arbitrary group with just one or two tragic events?
- cryoshon 11y ago
  On one hand, it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor that is funding and directing terror attacks. On the other hand, Muslims are people too, and it is extremely unjust to punish all Muslims for the actions of a radical sect. I think that Europe is in danger of lurching rightward and tempting the return of ethno-religious cleansing. Fascism is not pretty, and the danger for Europeans is real.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    Unfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absolve themselves of what their neighbors and family members are doing, radicalism will never be eliminated. Since extremist sects recruit from within moderate sects, the moderates need to be more diligent in truly eliminating the extremist element. That means more consequences to the community. Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation because right now, we're just kicking the can down the road. Disclaimer - this of course doesn't touch on the root causes of extremism, namely the Saudi state and its support of Wahhabism, as well as the overthrowing of several moderate states in the Middle East during the 20th century, as well as the demise of Arab Nationalism (and secularism) and rampant inequality and poverty in many Arab and Muslim countries. Unfortunately the proverbial Genie is out of the bottle...
    - Kristine1975 11y ago
      >Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation That sounds a bit like Sam Harris advocating for genocide in his book End of Faith: Sure it would be a crime, but otherwise millions would die.
      - Mikeb85 11y ago
        Except I'm not advocating genocide. Just pointing out that, if more tolerable solutions don't work, and it does become a perceived choice of 'us' vs 'them', people will choose themselves 10/10 times.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        Murdering millions because millions might die? Forgive me if I can't follow you.
      - 11y ago
- beachstartup 11y ago
  you have reason to be concerned. see: japanese american internment. that actually happened.
- rubyfan 11y ago
  > How easily could that attitude be shifted towards any arbitrary group with just one or two tragic events? It will be much easier with more unchecked authoritarian law in place.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

tosseraccount 11y ago

Sent from a computer made in China.

GrumpyBen 11y ago

The police found more than 300 illegal weapons during their searches. People that were put under house arrests have a file on them because of their links with terrorists or terrorist organizations. I don't feel the government is abusing the state of emergency, I just feel they should have done all this before the attacks.

stefantalpalaru 11y ago
> terrorist organizations Like those pesky ecologists that endanger the state by stopping economic growth and slowing down job creation at the cost of increased pollution, right?
- GrumpyBen 11y ago
  They're not ecologists, they're anti-globalization anarchists that protested against a new airport by destroying shops in downtown Nantes. They recently threw at the police candles that people left at the memorial for the Paris attacks. I consider myself an ecologist but I have no sympathy for these people.
  - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
    Can you read French? https://wiki.laquadrature.net/%C3%89tat_urgence/Recensement#Assignation_.C3.A0_r.C3.A9sidence_de_militants_.28.C3.A9cologistes_et.2Fou_extr.C3.AAme-gauche.29 https://wiki.laquadrature.net/%C3%89tat_urgence/Recensement#... People who commit crimes should be fined or arrested. These are preventive house arrests for crimes that they might commit in the future. You really don't see the problem with this?
    - GrumpyBen 11y ago
      They also banned alcohol sales at night in some places for the same simple reason: the police has better things to do right now than dealing with drunk people or anarchists

stefantalpalaru 11y ago

And this is the left in power. It's going to get worse when the right and the extreme right get their turn.

cryoshon 11y ago
Isn't this absolutely terrifying? People being rounded up, house arrest, cities locked down, violence against immigrants. It's a very bad look, and it's especially hard to criticize the response in the wake of the attacks. Rather than fight and complain piecemeal in response to government oversteps in their attempts to stop terror, dissenters need to formulate a concrete affirmative plan for dealing with terror while maintaining civil liberties and privacy. I'm not sure exactly what this plan would look like, but without something organized to push for, the government is going to keep getting their way and making everyone less free.
alex_duf 11y ago
I think it has nothing to do with political side anymore. Just irrational reaction to fear from the public, and over-exploitation of that fear to gain more power from the government. It's not pretty to watch. [edit] Fear is irrational by definition, I'm not judging on that, and understand why people are afraid.
- wutbrodo 11y ago
  > I think it has nothing to do with political side anymore. Really? I find this conclusion a little baffling, to be frank. Without saying which side of the political spectrum is more "correct", one can hardly deny that the right includes stronger reactions to perceived threats, practically by definition. You can see it in the rhetoric, the policies, the constituents, etc of both parties. Even now, I would be surprised if policies like these were seeing equal amounts of dissent from the right and from the left (note that this is a different axis than liberal/conservative).
gotchange 11y ago
The mainstream left in France mainly the Socialists are as awful when it comes to individual liberties as their peers in the center right. A good deal of French people love the nanny state and their government to meddle into their private business and run their lives but they have their differences on how to achieve that and which flavor to pick.

pmoriarty 11y ago

"Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear." -- Bertrand Russell But if you think this is something, wait until Le Pen comes to power. It's not just France either. Authoritarianism is rife in much of the rest of Europe, and the rest of the world, for that matter. France is a particularly interesting case, however. As on the one hand they're the land of Voltaire, of the French Revolution, of the ideals of "liberté, égalité, fraternité", and on the other of authoritarianism, colonialism, and xenophobia.

ekianjo 11y ago
Dont make me laugh. The revolutionaries were talking about fraternity while chopping heads by the 100 000s. Study your History my friend. France has always had an authoritarian face.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Kristine1975 11y ago
  There was also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 >The Paris massacre of 1961 was a massacre in Paris on 17 October 1961, during the Algerian War (1954–62). Under orders from the head of the Parisian police, Maurice Papon, the French National Police attacked a demonstration of some 30,000 pro-National Liberation Front (FLN) Algerians. >After 37 years of denial, in 1998 the French government acknowledged 40 deaths, although there are estimates of over 200. >Many demonstrators died when they were violently herded by police into the River Seine, with some thrown from bridges after being beaten unconscious. Other demonstrators were killed within the courtyard of the Paris police headquarters after being arrested and delivered there in police buses. Here's hoping history doesn't repeat itself.
vinceguidry 11y ago
> Authoritarianism is rife in much of the rest of Europe, and the rest of the world, for that matter. Europe's recent trend towards democracy was never really more than a trend. Democracy requires peace to flourish, without it people are going to value strongman leadership. Europe has only very recently shook off the threat of war. Nobody expects another great war, but it still takes a few hundred years before democratic institutions become robust enough to resist all the different ways the area can slide back into tyranny. Europe is not yet one polity, but they're moving in that direction. Once people start thinking of themselves as European first, and French / German / Italian / etc. second, that's when you know Europe is really ready for democracy. It takes a while. It wasn't that long ago that United States citizens thought of themselves as citizens of their state first, then of the Union, the civil war cured us of that defect. Perhaps Europe needs one more war to draw them together. Maybe a few of them. With luck those wars won't have to be martial in nature.