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Why Americans dress so casually
- lottin 11y agoI understand the advantages of dressing casually, but when I watch a video from the mid 20th century the first thing that strikes me (in a positive way) is that ordinary people took pride in their personal appearance. Nowadays it feels like people just don't care about their looks.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- philh 11y agoDid they take pride in it, or did they just feel pressured to look like they took pride in it?
- Shivetya 11y agopart of that appearance was being fit, you see very few obese in older pictures and the very obese were confined to carnival shows. Working around some BMI 40+ and its not like there is much choice for professional looking clothing that looks good. Get to the 50+ and it just gets worse. I just am amazed at how far back they traced the change in attitudes. Still I remember that day when IBM (contracting) announced its change in dress code and suddenly jeans were in. I think this was 95 or 96?
- oblio 11y agoIf Google is right (I'm using this for reference: http://weight.optyourlife.com/i03784mages/bmi_40.jpg http://weight.optyourlife.com/i03784mages/bmi_40.jpg), almost no kind of clothes will make you look good at BMI 50.
- maccard 11y agoI dress casually in the office, but take pride in how I look. I always wear clean, well fitting clothes, and make an effort to keep my colours well thought out. You might find me dressed in shorts and a tee shirt with a pair of vans, but it's not because I don't care about my appearance.
- hudell 11y ago"Nowadays it feels like people just don't care about their looks." Do you think that is a bad thing?
- FroshKiller 11y agoSelection bias. Of course the people being filmed are more likely to have been well dressed.
- pkorzeniewski 11y agoI don't think so, there're a lot of videos from the streets and almost everyone is dressed well. Sure, as a man you didn't have much of a choice back then when it comes to clothes, but nevertheless everyone looked much better than nowadays in my opinion.
- cballard 11y agoI feel like there is a conflation here of dressing casually[1] and dressing like a slob[2]. The former understands silhouette, color (often lack thereof), texture, etc., but eschews traditional formal attire. > The only thing I will say is that there's still a bit of a gender hangover, where women are singled out for wearing clothing normally associated with men. Wait, what? This is the opposite of how it is. It was a big deal when that celebrity kid wore a dress[3]. Women wearing denim, an oxford shirt, or sneakers is not even something people would notice as "off". Black jeans are practically a uniform for women in NYC. > I don’t know if it will happen, let alone sometime soon, but self-cleaning fabrics, I think that will be a thing. Not exactly self-cleaning, but merino and synthetic technical fabric is very hype currently. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=apc+lookbook https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=apc+lookbook [2]: http://www.theonion.com/article/iowa-fashion-week-begins-31579 http://www.theonion.com/article/iowa-fashion-week-begins-315... [3]: http://www.etonline.com/news/165398_jaden_smith_wears_dress_to_prom_attends_with_hunger_games_amandla_sternberg/ http://www.etonline.com/news/165398_jaden_smith_wears_dress_...
- shaftoe 11y agoMaybe this is a telling indication on myself, but the pictures in your first link look significantly stranger and off than the picture in the onion article, text aside. Formal wear has basically evolved into a costume that is used for specific events (weddings, funerals, and the like). It's hard to imagine someone dressing like that every day, with the complicated layers of nonfunctional and expensive items. Maybe that was the point. Casual wear has largely evolved into clothing easier to mass produce and fit close-enough off a shelf. Paired with a general decrease in cost and clothing is less of an investment than it once was.
- nostrebored 11y agoI think your perception of what dressing casually is will be dramatically skewed by where you are in the US -- as will what you deem to look slovenly. I think that the two are relative -- dressing casual for your location is doing something to distinguish yourself from the lazier crowd. I also think that using lookbook models as examples of casual dress is going to be excessive outside of fashion hubs. Their clothes are tailored well, layered appropriately with appealing, seasonally appropriate color schemes -- outside of a well curated closet, these aren't going to be looks that you'll pull out every day. And if your wardrobe is well selected, you probably are dressing a little more than casually. Also, I would say that skinny jeans are a pretty gender agnostic article of clothing now. And again, I think location comes into play. You're going to see a disproportionate number of women wearing sundresses/skirts in the south etc. I do think that in larger cities this is much less of a thing.
- mcv 11y agoShe claims that Americans dress more casually than anywhere else, and I don't doubt that the US has played a massive role in promoting more casual dress (also the cowboy esthetic, rock and roll, etc), but I'm not so sure the US is really more casual than every other country out there. When I hear Americans talk about business casual, it's generally khakis and button down shirts, except when you're in Silicon Valley. But in Netherland, jeans, t-shirt and sneakers (or army boots, in my case) are totally normal in the office. This was the case when I worked in small software companies, but currently I work at a major bank, and it's no different (except sandals, flip-flops and shorts do seem to be a step too far). The business side is a bit more formal, but the IT side is completely casual. Probably because everybody is looking at Silicon Valley.
- miseg 11y agoDo you find that managers dress up a little more than jeans in your bank?
- nakedrobot2 11y agoOh! The accursed "USA Business Casual".... the absolutely rigid uniform of khaki pants and a blue button down shirt. Cringetastic!
- pc86 11y agoNot the person to whom you're replying, but in my last certifiably "corporate" job, everyone's dress was pretty much dictated by the role you had. It was bizarre, but it was a large company (IT department alone was ~800) so there was a lot of institutional inertia. The employees wore chinos and a polo or sport shirts most days. Fridays was jeans instead of chinos but still a collared shirt. Managers wore slacks and dress shirts every day. Directors/VPs and up wore a suit every day but would dress down to slacks and dress shirts on Fridays sometimes. I swear somebody had to have been sending emails about it. I never saw some VPs in suits and some not, everyone seemed to dress down to the same level on the same day.
- mcv 11y agoMy manager usually wears a dress shirt and corresponding pants, but no tie or jacket. But maybe he puts those on when he meets higher ups. I think I've also seen him in jeans, but not often. But at a different department, the manager of the same level always wears a hoodie, and probably either jeans or cargo pants. I can't really imagine him in anything else.
- golergka 11y agoCasually? To me, it seems that americans really like to overdress. People still tell me (please, feel free to correct me — I'm not living in US, so my information may be outdated) that they would get strange looks if they wore flip-flops and shirts to the office, regardless of how hot it is outside, and how dangerous for health it might be to wear pants that don't allow the proper ventilation. When I look at pictures of NYC, I always see people walking in suits down the streets. It's bizzare.
- akie 11y agoReally? My impression (also from abroad) is that Americans generally underdress and really like their loose shirts, hats, sport shoes and other informal wear. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's quite different from what I saw on the streets while living in France for a while...
- chrisfarms 11y ago> His prediction was that everyone would dress in uniforms. But that’s the complete opposite of what has happened. And I don’t think people will be dressing in uniforms anytime soon. OK, here's a potential prediction that could bring about "uniforms"... If we end up with some kind of ubiquitous augmented reality, we may end up styling ourselves like you would a game avatar, and even "themeing" everyone around us. In that world, it might make more sense to just all wear comfy grey onezies all day. Of course all predictions like this are hilariously off... it'll probably be more like the entire earth bizarrely becomes a comfortable 23C and everyone just walks around in socks.
- dade_ 11y agoLast weekend there was a man in a green onesie with a yellow unicorn tusk at a bar, so it may be a continuation of the theme. Certainly stood out, but not only because of the outfit; Self-cleaning clothing can't arrive soon enough.
- bechampion 11y agoI've worked in Chicago and London , in different kind of companies. Chicago was extremely casual (sandals with white socks), ere In London we have to do smart casual every day but allowed to wear denims on friday. I've never been to NY but i feel that could be close to what London is like?
- hyperliner 11y agoSandals with white socks? Oh the humanity!!!
- dagw 11y agoOne thing I found working in London (1999-2000ish) was that even when everybody was 'forced' to wear a suit, many people gave zero fucks about how that suit looked. It permanently cured me of any belief that just wearing suit amounted in any way dressing well.
- grouchoboy 11y agoJust a little comment. America is not only USA.
- hyperliner 11y agoMost of the world goes by the definition that "America" means "USA" in this context. There may be other definitions of "America," but they are not the most popular across the world in this context.
- humanrebar 11y agoI see no mention of climate (the U.S. is mostly hotter than Europe) and shifting demographics towards the Southwest (where it's hotter). Even in these comments, there are observations contrasting more formal NYC with more casual southern and west coast cities. Makes sense to me. Even in slightly more formal southern towns like Dallas and Atlanta, there is a lot of new growth and new transplants from the north and east.
- flexie 11y agoI would say weather, obesity and technology also play major roles, possibly more than "fashion" or maybe creating fashion. Weather: During the 20th century Americans have increasingly moved west and south to warmer climates (go back 100 years and most Americans lived in the cooler climates in the north east). Loose khakis, t-shirt and sandals is much more comfortable in warm weather. Obesity: Very few were obese back when suits were common. It's not comfortable anymore to tuck your shirt in the pants once the belly pushes outwards (personal experience). Technology: Washers and dryers became common throughout the 20th century. Washing clothes used to be time consuming but the washer and dryer meant that it's now easy to wash your jeans and t-shirts. Meanwhile it's still a hassle to have your suit dry cleaned and your shirts pressed or ironed.
- ramblerman 11y agoThe consensus here seems to be that it is a comfort thing and the US is generally warmer. There is truth in that, but I would argue there is a bigger cultural divide at play. I was just sitting in a restaurant in France the other day and an american was present one table over sporting a baseball cap indoors. I realise it's my issue, but this really bothered me for some reason.
- mcv 11y agoThe etiquette certainly used to be that you take your hat off indoors. Men at least; women maybe not, for some reason.
- S_A_P 11y agoI think this article has it backwards. I usually gauge what the company culture is by the dress code. If everyone in the office is wearing a suit and looks down on me for not doing so, I don't want to work there. If they judge someone for not wearing a suit I don't want to work there. If they care about good results and as long as you dress appropriately for any customers you may face, that is probably a good culture.
- dheera 11y agoI agree with you. I also think this way. However, keep in mind though that the unemployment for software engineers in the Bay Area is nearly zero. I've rejected more companies than the other way around. So for people like us, we tend to collectively get a lot of say over company culture, or else we leave and find a better place to work. This isn't true of most other industries though.
- douche 11y agoWho the hell wants to get gussied up in non-functional, expensive, uncomfortable clothes, if it is not necessary? Give me cheap, durable, and comfortable any day of the week. Thankfully, I can wear my steel-toe boots, Carharts and flannel to work, and nobody cares. Why would they? I'm a programmer that sits in my office most of the time, and, except for trade-shows, any interactions I have with customers are on the phone or email.
- beachstartup 11y agowhy do you need steel-toed boots in an office? the only time i've seen that is at construction or engineering firms where office workers occasionally have to go into the field/job site.
- douche 11y agoThey are very comfortable, with good ankle support. Also well insulated, for the five months out of the year when it is below freezing or snowy. I also don't see the point in spending the money on another pair of "fancy" boots, which are generally not very well constructed, or fitted to my feet, when I have these[1], which are tough-as-nails and reasonably good-looking if you keep them clean and use a little polish once in a while. Yeah, they are kevlar-lined chainsaw boots - I actually use a chainsaw on a regular basis, and having a real pair of safety boots is pretty much the absolute minimum level of safety equipment. Even if you know what you are doing and are careful, you can fetch up on something and the saw can kick back. Chainsaw cuts are extremely nasty. [1] http://www.labonville.com/Labonville-Kevlar-1-Low-Heel-Chainsaw-Safety-Steel-Box-Toe-Boot-Made-In-The-USA--24127_p_248.html http://www.labonville.com/Labonville-Kevlar-1-Low-Heel-Chain...
- mcv 11y agoI don't need them, but I do need something on my feet, and these are comfortable and durable, and I think they look better than the sports shoes many other people prefer to wear. (Of course they wear those sports shoes, despite not working out at the office, because they think those are more comfortable.)
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- pkorzeniewski 11y agoI'm aware most people in tech don't care about their appearance, so I probably will get downovted, but I feel much better at work around nicely dressed people - just as I prefer to work in a cozy office rather than an old hole with devastated walls, torn carpet and ugly desks. And yes, how you dress tells a lot about you.
- arethuza 11y agoI must admit that I really don't care in slightest how colleagues dress - looking around I can see people who are very smart (because they like to - not because it is required) and others that are very casual. I really don't care. Edit: I'm sitting in a very nice office!
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jazzyk 11y agoBeing dressed appropriately and neatly (not necessarily fashionably or expensively) is a sign of paying attention to details, good judgement and taste. All of which you need as a software developer.
- tommorris 11y agoDo you need to have those an attention to detail, good judgment and taste, or do you need to merely display signs of having them to others?
- arethuza 11y agoAnd is there any evidence that having "attention to detail, good judgment and taste" for personal appearance carries across to having those for software development. I've never seen any correlation.
- jib 11y agoCaring about dressing nicely is a Moneyball thing to me. If you care about how someone dresses when you hire them, odds are you're using bad criteria for your decisions. That's not to say that you can't get great people, but you're probably paying over the odds for them, if "dresses nicely" is one of your factors for selection. I think I will hire better if I dont care about dress code - I think odds are better that I will find a good hire if one of my criteria is not "do they own a suit or a dress".
- quaffapint 11y agoI'm in the US and worked for a bank and remember getting pulled aside by my manager because his boss was upset that my dress shoes did not match dress pants. Keep in mind that I was a lowly programmer, had to wear a tie, and when he had investors come through we were literally told to hide. I now work for the bank that bought out that bank and work from home currently in jeans and a hoodie, much more befitting my status.
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoHas the dress code just changed to 'casual'? This may not be some fundamental shift in people and what they care about. Its just a change in the details of current fashion.