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I support around 300 Macs for work. In my extensive experience, the deal here is that people are FAR too rough and careless in winding up those charger cables o

by Bud 11y ago

I support around 300 Macs for work. In my extensive experience, the deal here is that people are FAR too rough and careless in winding up those charger cables over and over. Apple HAS implemented strain relief here and done their best to make the points of failure less vulnerable. Here's a tip: Instead of yanking the cable at a 90-degree angle and winding as tightly as possible, let the cable come out of the charger naturally, perpendicular to the charger, make a small loop, and then wind the rest of the cable gently around the two plastic hooks that are provided. If you do this, the charger will last a LOT longer. The simple fact is that there is no way to make a wire that gets twisted and yanked and bent at a 90-degree angle, and which will nevertheless last forever. That's just not a thing we can do. Another tip is: own 2 of these chargers, one for home and one for walking around, so that you don't have to wrap up your only charger over and over, every day.

jeffcox 11y ago
I've owned Macbooks consistently for about 6 years now, I always use that little loop technique when winding the cord. I've never had a charger fray or fail on me.
- DanBC 11y ago
  I use the loop technique. I've had two cords self-destroy. I'd need some persuading that the rubbery sleeving was chosen for purely engineering reasons, and not mostly "it feels nice".
  - knowaveragejoe 11y ago
    The sleeving was chosen because the springy quality makes it easier to untangle.
- engi_nerd 11y ago
  This seems to be very much a "your mileage may vary" thing. I always used that same technique and went through 4 chargers before I finally got sick of the darn things. Then there are a lot of people like you who think that people like me must have hammers or wire dikes for hands.
- JshWright 11y ago
  As a counter anecdote, I am _very_ careful with my charger (and cords in general). The only chargers I've ever had fail are from Apple. I finally got tired of it and bought a counterfeit charger that wasn't as "clever" (i.e. didn't have a thin gauge coaxial cord with a weak rubber insulation), which has lasted far longer.
yeukhon 11y ago
Sorry, but I am really bad at following written instruction like origami... without visual instructions.. Is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWRcszmX_p0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWRcszmX_p0 what you tried to demonstrate?
ricardobeat 11y ago
It also frails at the MagSafe end, where gravity naturally twists it. I had this happen to mine (after 5 years).
richdougherty 11y ago
I've had two chargers fail, now I treat them very gently and wind them like you suggest. I wish the charger design was more robust. Most chargers for other laptops are uglier but much more robust.
- dogma1138 11y ago
  Dell makes chargers that are very small (or at least thin) but are very though. The Apple charger is small but quite bulky (especially with a UK plug) I got both an MBP 15 and a Dell XPS 15 and the Dell charger fits better in every bag i have. It's has the overall footprint of a ~5-5.5" phone/phablet and is about half as thick as the Apple charger. http://www.amazon.com/Original-Dell-Replacement-Precision-Compatible/dp/B00I8X93EK http://www.amazon.com/Original-Dell-Replacement-Precision-Co... I actually find the Apple charger a bit annoying, it doesn't fit flat in any of the smaller / side pockets of my briefcases or messenger bags, and overall the Dell charger isn't "ugly" if you would gave it the apple "storm trooper white" finish and an apple logo it would not look out of place in Apple's catalog. The other thing I kinda hate about Apple is the fact that it won't take a standard mickey mouse cable, if you forget the cable / socket plug you are pretty much screwed if you are at a non-startup company :<
  - pareidolia 11y ago
    I just got the calipers and measured the diameter of the DC cable of my Dell 90 watt slimline adapter, and it's 5 mm! Consider that for comparison.
justinhj 11y ago
I have a charger I only use at home and it's hopelessly frayed. The users are not the problem here.
- bigiain 11y ago
  An alternative datapoint - I have a charger that's not yet frayed, but it is starting to get intermittent - sometimes I need to wriggle the wires where they go into the mag safe connector. That's the original charger for my 2006 black MacBook. It was in daily use by me for work until I got my mid 2010 MacBook Pro, and was then used as a "home machine" by someone else up until early this year. The charger from the 2010 Macbook Pro is still working fine (but I'll point out I left that charger at work almost all the time, and "borrowed" the 2006 one when I needed to top up at home). I suspect a difference is that I never "wrap the cable round the hooks", I just loop the cable up loosely and drop it all in my bag. I do the same with my iPod/iPhone cabes, and I've only ever had one of those fray (and I suspect that was one that got borrowed a lot). I wonder if this is a "you're holding it wrong" design oversight, where they've had lots of people using and testing them, but all in very similar ways which are not the only way they're used outside Apple?
  - metafunctor 11y ago
    Yep, I think this is it. I also have 5 years old MBP with the original charger, and it's still fine. I'm not a very careful person, and in general never wrap cables in loops, just cram them in the bag. Sometimes my cables get impressively tangled, but I think I'm still actually saving time by skipping the meticulous wrapping every time I take off (at least twice per day). So maybe if you stop taking "good care" of your charger, and stop wrapping it in a tight loop, it will actually last longer. That said, a lot of people seem think you're supposed to wrap the cables. After all, the MBP charger has built-in hooks for exactly that purpose. The charger is badly designed if wrapping the cable around the provided hooks causes it fray very quickly.
    - jschwartzi 11y ago
      If they did usability testing, then the first thing they probably did was train the sample users. It's possible that fixed the test so that they never see the use case we're describing.
grandalf 11y ago
I do these things and have only had one failure in the past 5 years (and it happened while someone was borrowing the charger from me).
nostromo 11y ago
My earphones kept breaking (I use them while working out) so I reinforced the sensitive area with a heat-shrink wire wrap, like these: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008WWC6FU http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008WWC6FU It works wonders. I'm not sure this would work for Mac chargers because you couldn't get the sleeve over the ends, but it also works iPhone charger cables.
- mrosseel 11y ago
  I used Sugru (sugru.com) to fix my mac charger and other things, my earphone cable is next.
  - cleaver 11y ago
    I've used both shrink tubing and Sugru on iPhone cables. On the MacBook charger, just Sugru. Both will fail eventually. I find that typical shrink wrap is too stiff and creates stress riser. After a couple of years, my cables are more patch than original.
    - Scoundreller 11y ago
      I'm planning on doing this with shrink wrap. My plan will be to not completely shrink the cable-side of the shrink wrap to leave some play so I don't create a stiff point.
  - whyenot 11y ago
    I have tried using Sugru to fix my Mac charger. It only worked as a temporary fix for me. I think the problem is that Sugru is not elastic enough and tends to crack when it bends.
engi_nerd 11y ago
Yup, I always followed your exact advice and still wound up with frayed and ultimately broken cables within 10 months or so. It's always possible that I just have bad luck. That doesn't mean I dislike your advice though.
vacri 11y ago
> Apple HAS implemented strain relief here That's not the same as implementing good strain relief. I used to work for a company that made medical devices. One of our products started with a cable with strain relief, and it kept breaking (a wearable monitor). We 'implemented better strain relief', and it kept breaking. It was revision D where we got it right and the cables stopped breaking. And if cables can't survive a 90-degree bend, then stop them from being able to be bent that far in the first place (we had to). And to be fair, other companies don't have this problem, because they engineer their chargers for how people will use them - basically what you're describing is another form of "you're holding it wrong".
- Bud 11y ago
  That's ludicrous. Other companies don't have this problem? Sorry, but I take care of hundreds of PCs. Other companies definitely do have this problem.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    > That's ludicrous. Other companies don't have this problem? Anecdotally, neither the 7-or-8-year-old charger for my Toughbook nor the four-ish-year-old charger for the treats-all-her-cabling-like-it's-meant-to-be-load-bearing roommate's Toshiba Satellite have failed. Apple definitely seems to be an outlier in this arena and is well known for their not-infrequent decision to sacrifice function, user comfort, and/or safety for aesthetic appeal.
noja 11y ago
I guess we're holding the phones wrong too.
Alupis 11y ago
Way back in my computer repair days, I used to commonly see macbooks with horrendously frayed and/or just generally poor condition chargers. While, other laptops didn't seem to have that issue nearly as often (although breaking the DC jack was a common problem for those folks, but that's a different issue). You shouldn't have to be tender and gentle with the power cable for your device... it should be durable and stand up to abuse. After all, it's for a laptop which may experience hard yanks as people walk away with it plugged in, the cable being stepped on or crushed by a chair, being thrown into a bag not coiled (or sometimes coiled too tightly), dropped from waist-height (or higher), thrown to a friend, etc. It's not unreasonable to expect these things to be very durable. Functionality and durability should take precedence over design aesthetics here. (as an aside, the white color always ended up looking filthy in short while, and was nearly impossible to restore to bright white)
- Bud 11y ago
  Great, so you explain how Apple's design is faulty, and how it could be improved. I think you'll find this is easier blustered about than done. PC chargers, for instance, are universally worse. A lot worse. This design already does the best job in the industry at handling hard yanks——that's what MagSafe is for. And it does fine with ordinary, expected use and abuse of the cable. And it does great with being thrown into a bag or dropped. What it doesn't do, because that's impossible, is to magically become able to be yanked on 500 times and coiled as tightly as possible around itself, without ever wearing out. But I've offered a solution to that. Your implied accusation that "design aesthetics" have taken precedence over functionality and durability is unfounded. The fact is that Apple's charger works a lot better and is a lot more durable than the competition.
  - Alupis 11y ago
    > PC chargers, for instance, are universally worse. A lot worse. This is an unsubstantiated claim not backed by any evidence. In fact, your original post speaks against your very claim - you advocate people be ginger with their chargers or risk breaking them. > This design already does the best job in the industry at handling hard yanks——that's what MagSafe is for You mean to say "that's what MagSafe was for". Magsafe is gone now... (although I would generally agree that type of connector is good). > it does fine with ordinary, expected use and abuse of the cable Clearly not the case, as evidenced by this thread here. > And it does great with being thrown into a bag or dropped. I can't speak to either way except with anecdotal evidence of having to replace far more macbook chargers than any other type. > What it doesn't do, because that's impossible, is to magically become able to be yanked on 500 times and coiled as tightly as possible around itself, without ever wearing out Somehow my Thinkpad's charger hasn't worn out, and I'm guilty of every laptop charger sin there is. The same holds true for my previous Dell laptop. These types of chargers are usually made from hard plastic, with a plastic cable. They don't fray the same way macbook rubber-y chargers do. In fact, Dell's chargers are designed specifically to be tightly wound around the charger and come with a nice rubber strap to hold it tight. > Your implied accusation that "design aesthetics" have taken precedence over functionality and durability is unfounded Perhaps, but it does seem so given all the anecdotal evidence in this thread. It looks pretty, but wore out far quicker than most should. > The fact is that Apple's charger works a lot better and is a lot more durable than the competition. This is another unsubstantiated claim, and/or is supported only by your proposition people treat their chargers with tenderness (which isn't going to happen). Plain and simple - these things need to be designed to take a lot of abuse. If Apple can do that, great... but it seems they took a giant leap backwards with the new USB-C charger which will cause the infamous "broken DC jack" problem all over again.
mc32 11y ago
Of course people are "too rough" with their power adapters, but the mfg should take that into account when designing such a component.
- Bud 11y ago
  Yep. And Apple did. That's why there is more robust strain relief than it used to have, and that's why there is MagSafe, which is vastly superior to the PC side when dealing with yanks and ordinary abuse.
  - specialist 11y ago
    I much prefer the disposal (consumable) MagSafe adapters. I've ripped out the prior RCA (?) style Powerbook connector numerous times. But if the MagSafe connector cannot be made more robust (durable), then it should be replaceable.
Spooky23 11y ago
I can't agree with that. Someone at Apple fetishizes thin cables to a dangerous degree. These power supplies aren't as obviously defective by design as an iPhone cable, but after looking at the amount of design detail and engineering directed at the power supply and MagSafe, the sacrifices made seem pretty insane.
- GPGPU 11y ago
  I have to replace Mac chargers about once a year.
samstave 11y ago
I am a charger hoarder: One at work, one in the backpack, several at home. Take my phone for example - I tend to have a charger in every room of the house, several for my backpack and one at my desk.
- lostgame 11y ago
  This wouldn't be an issue if Apple's chargers weren't so proprietary to the point where third-party developers can't even manufacture their own devices. I wonder if they'll allow non-Apple USB-C chargers. I think they'd have to.
  - frankiechh 11y ago
    See my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10634451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10634451
PhasmaFelis 11y ago
If using a product in the most obvious and intuitive way causes it to fail, it's the product's fault, not the user's. It should be redesigned so the obvious use is the correct one. Plenty of laptop power supplies have cables designed to wrap around the brick for storage and don't have failure rates like this. Apple has not implemented proper strain relief, with a perforated sleeve (presumably for aesthetic reasons), and they still use a thin, over-flexible wire. Their own website shows the cable wrapped tightly--on a page about avoiding cable damage, no less. (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201600 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201600) Blaming the user for, essentially, not being an engineer is common in the tech industry, and it really doesn't help anything, especially from a company that claims to be (and generally is!) as user-friendly as Apple.
- hobs 11y ago
  And that is why they have an internal kbase article talking about that cable fraying, and have safety kbases on that as well, or did 5 years ago when I worked there. - Former apple support guy
revelation 11y ago
Yes, so that's why we invented plugs. That's a thing we can do.
rzzzt 11y ago
You can also ignore the foldable hooks on the charger entirely, and wind both the low voltage cable and the power cord (if you have it attached) together in a comfortably-sized coil. This way the low voltage side doesn't have to take any sharp turns (and the other end with the power cord seems to have a stronger strain relief, which should be able to handle a light bend).
golergka 11y ago
> Instead of yanking the cable at a 90-degree angle and winding as tightly as possible But Apple's design just suggests you do exactly that :/
cptskippy 11y ago
> Apple HAS implemented strain relief Apple favors form over function and tries to make their cables in interfaces as small as possible. The result is that there's no room left in their designs for adequate strain relief. They end up using the smallest cables they can get away with and have a bushing around the cable as it enters it's housing to protect against lateral force and that's about it. There's rarely any internal strain relief mechanism.
- ghaff 11y ago
  The odd thing is that the cable going to the laptop is probably too thin/not stress-relived enough (I've "only" had one fail but it seems a marginal design). However, at the same time, the alternate plug with the extension length of cord attached practically looks and weighs like something I'd attach to a mainframe. I don't travel with it for that reason. It's always seemed to me as if the two different components were designed by engineers who didn't even talk to each other--and it's been that way for years. There may be a UL thing going on at the 120/240V side of the charger but it still seems ridiculously overengineered.
  - r00fus 11y ago
    It doesn't look elegant and it may not be UL tested, but I've used AC cord segments from other laptops [1]. [1] http://www.newegg.com/AC-Power-Cords-for-Laptop/SubCategory/ID-2811 http://www.newegg.com/AC-Power-Cords-for-Laptop/SubCategory/...
GigabyteCoin 11y ago
The problem is that apple expects typical consumers to treat the cable with such care. Why should I have to buy 2 chargers (at $99 a pop, no less) when one charger for pretty much every other laptop company out there will work for years with "rough and careless" users, and only cost $20 to replace?
oaktowner 11y ago
I couldn't disagree more. Chargers should be durable enough to handle typical usage. People aren't "FAR too rough and careless." People behave as people behave. A high end manufacturer like Apple should be design and manufacture their devices to stand up to the rigors that people typically put them through. Why doesn't Apple? Because their user base (or at least the majority of their user base who winds chargers too tightly, which I apparently fall into) would rather buy a new charger every year or so than switch computers. It's quite profitable for them. [Edit -- fixed typo]
ksk 11y ago
I think a charger should be much more robust than this. Other laptop manufacturers have already figured out how to avoid such a simple thing. I can only speak from my own experience, and after one MB Pro and two iPhone chargers with frayed wires, I'll take my ugly Sony Vaio charger over a 'brilliantly' designed Apple one any day of the week. http://imgur.com/MYzPHOV http://imgur.com/MYzPHOV
whyenot 11y ago
How about producing a charger with more robust wiring? The power brick for my Thinkpad X200 is now more than 6 years old. It has been treated very roughly, but has thicker wires, robust strain relief, and has never failed. In the same amount of time, I've gone through three Apple chargers. It's a little silly.
HelloMcFly 11y ago
If only one brand seems to suffer from the problem, it's likely a product issue, not a user one. This is a cable, not a UI - care procedures and durability should be roughly equivalent.
Udo_Schmitz 11y ago
You know what I think? It’s not our carelessness but the plastic they use for the cables: I own 2 chargers for my MacBook. I do the loop for the charger I carry around. The one I leave home on the floor never got wound up. It looks like this after about two years: https://twitter.com/Udo/status/667295383299579905 https://twitter.com/Udo/status/667295383299579905
Crito 11y ago
> "people are FAR too" I'll stop you right there, No. Men should not serve machines. Machines should serve men. If the machine cannot take the abuse that people typically subject it to, then the design of the machine needs to be revised. Trying to modify human behaviour to suit the unnecessary mechanical limitations of machines is insane.
ars 11y ago
> The simple fact is that there is no way to make a wire that gets twisted and yanked and bent at a 90-degree angle, and which will nevertheless last forever. If you can, count how many strands are inside that wire. If it's fewer than 90 strands you know why this wire fails. I bet it's probably only 19 which is the minimum for a moving wire not to break. > That's just not a thing we can do. Yes it is. Assembly robots that move all day can have even 5,000 strands in the wires in a careful helical winding pattern that prevents the strands from being under tension - those will not break even after constant movement and folding.
FireBeyond 11y ago
Your tip is great, but I do this. I have a charger in a cable tray under my desk. Above my desk, one of these guys: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004GUS4XK http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004GUS4XK I've still had two Macbook cables fray, the sheath opening up like a paper lantern. There is near zero strain on this cable at any point.
eru 11y ago
I wonder why they didn't go for a design, where doing the natural winding would not cause a 90 degree bend. (Eg they could let the cable come out of the charger at a different angle.)
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Pinatubo 11y ago
Do you have any tips for how I should hold my phone?
Scoundreller 11y ago
Strain relief is not a discrete binary variable, but a continuous one.
hakcermani 11y ago
> Instead of yanking the cable at a 90-degree angle and winding as tightly as possible, let the cable come out of the charger naturally, perpendicular to the charger .. > own 2 of these chargers Good tips ! I do exactly this and have a charger that has lasted 5 years. Cable looks good still (touch wood !)
sehugg 11y ago
Nope. This has happened to just about every Apple cable I've ever owned. MacBook Pro power adapters. MacBook Retina power adapters. iPod cables. Lightning cables. The insulation gets frayed. Sometimes there have been sparks. This has never happened to any USB cable I've owned. It's almost as if they make a profit off of selling licensed cables with their proprietary technology or something.
- frankiechh 11y ago
  See my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10634451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10634451
dbg31415 11y ago
Look, engineer the thing to stand up to normal use. Way more reasonable than trying to get everyone the world over to baby their chargers. I go through about one of these chargers a year. I leave one at my desk at home, so I don't have to move it, and I take the other one with me on the road. The one I travel with gets plugged and unplugged probably 5 times a day... and it never lasts more than 6-8 months. Shitty design.
analog31 11y ago
I've always used the loop method with chargers and adapters, because of my decades as a musician dealing with various kinds of cables. When cables fail, it's invariably at one of the two ends where the cable gets bent and twisted. In fact, a bad cable can almost always be repaired by cutting off a couple inches from each end and re-attaching the plugs. Strain reliefs of various types help prolong the life of a cable, but not really by very much.
bad_user 11y ago
You're wrapping it wrong.
TwoBit 11y ago
A quality product simply wouldn't have that problem. Quality means it can take some abuse, and you see it all the time in tools for many professions.
greggman 11y ago
That's not my experience. I don't yank my power cable and after replacing 2 of them I now wrap up the cable leaving a 4 inch loop of cable coming out of the adapter. So there's no 90 degree twist where the wire comes out of the adapter. Unfortunately there's still often a 90 degree turn where it connects to my MBP. I've found no reliable way to prevent that.
runholm 11y ago
If people in general are not careful enough with the product, it sounds to me as the product is not built well enough for regular use.
fit2rule 11y ago
My tip for trouble-free cable management: Never wind the cable. Always fold it. Always. Whether its a rope, a cable, whatever: every time you wind it, you twist the fibers. Instead, grab both ends, hold them together, untangle and pull the two sides together .. find the new ends, combine them, fold, over and over .. until you get a nice tidy package. This treats the cable much nicer - its built for expanding in the combined loops, but when you wind .. and wind .. and wind .. you twist the fibers. Fold, don't twist!
mcv 11y ago
It's not just an issue with Macbook chargers; my wife's iPhone and iPhad chargers are in far worse condition. They keep falling apart in new and creative ways that my micro-USB chargers don't.

by Bud 11y ago

jeffcox 11y ago

I've owned Macbooks consistently for about 6 years now, I always use that little loop technique when winding the cord. I've never had a charger fray or fail on me.

DanBC 11y ago
I use the loop technique. I've had two cords self-destroy. I'd need some persuading that the rubbery sleeving was chosen for purely engineering reasons, and not mostly "it feels nice".
- knowaveragejoe 11y ago
  The sleeving was chosen because the springy quality makes it easier to untangle.
engi_nerd 11y ago
This seems to be very much a "your mileage may vary" thing. I always used that same technique and went through 4 chargers before I finally got sick of the darn things. Then there are a lot of people like you who think that people like me must have hammers or wire dikes for hands.
JshWright 11y ago
As a counter anecdote, I am _very_ careful with my charger (and cords in general). The only chargers I've ever had fail are from Apple. I finally got tired of it and bought a counterfeit charger that wasn't as "clever" (i.e. didn't have a thin gauge coaxial cord with a weak rubber insulation), which has lasted far longer.

yeukhon 11y ago

Sorry, but I am really bad at following written instruction like origami... without visual instructions.. Is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWRcszmX_p0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWRcszmX_p0 what you tried to demonstrate?

ricardobeat 11y ago

It also frails at the MagSafe end, where gravity naturally twists it. I had this happen to mine (after 5 years).

richdougherty 11y ago

I've had two chargers fail, now I treat them very gently and wind them like you suggest. I wish the charger design was more robust. Most chargers for other laptops are uglier but much more robust.

dogma1138 11y ago
Dell makes chargers that are very small (or at least thin) but are very though. The Apple charger is small but quite bulky (especially with a UK plug) I got both an MBP 15 and a Dell XPS 15 and the Dell charger fits better in every bag i have. It's has the overall footprint of a ~5-5.5" phone/phablet and is about half as thick as the Apple charger. http://www.amazon.com/Original-Dell-Replacement-Precision-Compatible/dp/B00I8X93EK http://www.amazon.com/Original-Dell-Replacement-Precision-Co... I actually find the Apple charger a bit annoying, it doesn't fit flat in any of the smaller / side pockets of my briefcases or messenger bags, and overall the Dell charger isn't "ugly" if you would gave it the apple "storm trooper white" finish and an apple logo it would not look out of place in Apple's catalog. The other thing I kinda hate about Apple is the fact that it won't take a standard mickey mouse cable, if you forget the cable / socket plug you are pretty much screwed if you are at a non-startup company :<
- pareidolia 11y ago
  I just got the calipers and measured the diameter of the DC cable of my Dell 90 watt slimline adapter, and it's 5 mm! Consider that for comparison.

justinhj 11y ago

I have a charger I only use at home and it's hopelessly frayed. The users are not the problem here.

bigiain 11y ago
An alternative datapoint - I have a charger that's not yet frayed, but it is starting to get intermittent - sometimes I need to wriggle the wires where they go into the mag safe connector. That's the original charger for my 2006 black MacBook. It was in daily use by me for work until I got my mid 2010 MacBook Pro, and was then used as a "home machine" by someone else up until early this year. The charger from the 2010 Macbook Pro is still working fine (but I'll point out I left that charger at work almost all the time, and "borrowed" the 2006 one when I needed to top up at home). I suspect a difference is that I never "wrap the cable round the hooks", I just loop the cable up loosely and drop it all in my bag. I do the same with my iPod/iPhone cabes, and I've only ever had one of those fray (and I suspect that was one that got borrowed a lot). I wonder if this is a "you're holding it wrong" design oversight, where they've had lots of people using and testing them, but all in very similar ways which are not the only way they're used outside Apple?
- metafunctor 11y ago
  Yep, I think this is it. I also have 5 years old MBP with the original charger, and it's still fine. I'm not a very careful person, and in general never wrap cables in loops, just cram them in the bag. Sometimes my cables get impressively tangled, but I think I'm still actually saving time by skipping the meticulous wrapping every time I take off (at least twice per day). So maybe if you stop taking "good care" of your charger, and stop wrapping it in a tight loop, it will actually last longer. That said, a lot of people seem think you're supposed to wrap the cables. After all, the MBP charger has built-in hooks for exactly that purpose. The charger is badly designed if wrapping the cable around the provided hooks causes it fray very quickly.
  - jschwartzi 11y ago
    If they did usability testing, then the first thing they probably did was train the sample users. It's possible that fixed the test so that they never see the use case we're describing.

grandalf 11y ago

I do these things and have only had one failure in the past 5 years (and it happened while someone was borrowing the charger from me).

nostromo 11y ago

My earphones kept breaking (I use them while working out) so I reinforced the sensitive area with a heat-shrink wire wrap, like these: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008WWC6FU http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008WWC6FU It works wonders. I'm not sure this would work for Mac chargers because you couldn't get the sleeve over the ends, but it also works iPhone charger cables.

mrosseel 11y ago
I used Sugru (sugru.com) to fix my mac charger and other things, my earphone cable is next.
- cleaver 11y ago
  I've used both shrink tubing and Sugru on iPhone cables. On the MacBook charger, just Sugru. Both will fail eventually. I find that typical shrink wrap is too stiff and creates stress riser. After a couple of years, my cables are more patch than original.
  - Scoundreller 11y ago
    I'm planning on doing this with shrink wrap. My plan will be to not completely shrink the cable-side of the shrink wrap to leave some play so I don't create a stiff point.
- whyenot 11y ago
  I have tried using Sugru to fix my Mac charger. It only worked as a temporary fix for me. I think the problem is that Sugru is not elastic enough and tends to crack when it bends.

engi_nerd 11y ago

Yup, I always followed your exact advice and still wound up with frayed and ultimately broken cables within 10 months or so. It's always possible that I just have bad luck. That doesn't mean I dislike your advice though.

vacri 11y ago

> Apple HAS implemented strain relief here That's not the same as implementing good strain relief. I used to work for a company that made medical devices. One of our products started with a cable with strain relief, and it kept breaking (a wearable monitor). We 'implemented better strain relief', and it kept breaking. It was revision D where we got it right and the cables stopped breaking. And if cables can't survive a 90-degree bend, then stop them from being able to be bent that far in the first place (we had to). And to be fair, other companies don't have this problem, because they engineer their chargers for how people will use them - basically what you're describing is another form of "you're holding it wrong".

Bud 11y ago
That's ludicrous. Other companies don't have this problem? Sorry, but I take care of hundreds of PCs. Other companies definitely do have this problem.
- simoncion 11y ago
  > That's ludicrous. Other companies don't have this problem? Anecdotally, neither the 7-or-8-year-old charger for my Toughbook nor the four-ish-year-old charger for the treats-all-her-cabling-like-it's-meant-to-be-load-bearing roommate's Toshiba Satellite have failed. Apple definitely seems to be an outlier in this arena and is well known for their not-infrequent decision to sacrifice function, user comfort, and/or safety for aesthetic appeal.

noja 11y ago

I guess we're holding the phones wrong too.

Alupis 11y ago

Way back in my computer repair days, I used to commonly see macbooks with horrendously frayed and/or just generally poor condition chargers. While, other laptops didn't seem to have that issue nearly as often (although breaking the DC jack was a common problem for those folks, but that's a different issue). You shouldn't have to be tender and gentle with the power cable for your device... it should be durable and stand up to abuse. After all, it's for a laptop which may experience hard yanks as people walk away with it plugged in, the cable being stepped on or crushed by a chair, being thrown into a bag not coiled (or sometimes coiled too tightly), dropped from waist-height (or higher), thrown to a friend, etc. It's not unreasonable to expect these things to be very durable. Functionality and durability should take precedence over design aesthetics here. (as an aside, the white color always ended up looking filthy in short while, and was nearly impossible to restore to bright white)

Bud 11y ago
Great, so you explain how Apple's design is faulty, and how it could be improved. I think you'll find this is easier blustered about than done. PC chargers, for instance, are universally worse. A lot worse. This design already does the best job in the industry at handling hard yanks——that's what MagSafe is for. And it does fine with ordinary, expected use and abuse of the cable. And it does great with being thrown into a bag or dropped. What it doesn't do, because that's impossible, is to magically become able to be yanked on 500 times and coiled as tightly as possible around itself, without ever wearing out. But I've offered a solution to that. Your implied accusation that "design aesthetics" have taken precedence over functionality and durability is unfounded. The fact is that Apple's charger works a lot better and is a lot more durable than the competition.
- Alupis 11y ago
  > PC chargers, for instance, are universally worse. A lot worse. This is an unsubstantiated claim not backed by any evidence. In fact, your original post speaks against your very claim - you advocate people be ginger with their chargers or risk breaking them. > This design already does the best job in the industry at handling hard yanks——that's what MagSafe is for You mean to say "that's what MagSafe was for". Magsafe is gone now... (although I would generally agree that type of connector is good). > it does fine with ordinary, expected use and abuse of the cable Clearly not the case, as evidenced by this thread here. > And it does great with being thrown into a bag or dropped. I can't speak to either way except with anecdotal evidence of having to replace far more macbook chargers than any other type. > What it doesn't do, because that's impossible, is to magically become able to be yanked on 500 times and coiled as tightly as possible around itself, without ever wearing out Somehow my Thinkpad's charger hasn't worn out, and I'm guilty of every laptop charger sin there is. The same holds true for my previous Dell laptop. These types of chargers are usually made from hard plastic, with a plastic cable. They don't fray the same way macbook rubber-y chargers do. In fact, Dell's chargers are designed specifically to be tightly wound around the charger and come with a nice rubber strap to hold it tight. > Your implied accusation that "design aesthetics" have taken precedence over functionality and durability is unfounded Perhaps, but it does seem so given all the anecdotal evidence in this thread. It looks pretty, but wore out far quicker than most should. > The fact is that Apple's charger works a lot better and is a lot more durable than the competition. This is another unsubstantiated claim, and/or is supported only by your proposition people treat their chargers with tenderness (which isn't going to happen). Plain and simple - these things need to be designed to take a lot of abuse. If Apple can do that, great... but it seems they took a giant leap backwards with the new USB-C charger which will cause the infamous "broken DC jack" problem all over again.

mc32 11y ago

Of course people are "too rough" with their power adapters, but the mfg should take that into account when designing such a component.

Bud 11y ago
Yep. And Apple did. That's why there is more robust strain relief than it used to have, and that's why there is MagSafe, which is vastly superior to the PC side when dealing with yanks and ordinary abuse.
- specialist 11y ago
  I much prefer the disposal (consumable) MagSafe adapters. I've ripped out the prior RCA (?) style Powerbook connector numerous times. But if the MagSafe connector cannot be made more robust (durable), then it should be replaceable.

Spooky23 11y ago

I can't agree with that. Someone at Apple fetishizes thin cables to a dangerous degree. These power supplies aren't as obviously defective by design as an iPhone cable, but after looking at the amount of design detail and engineering directed at the power supply and MagSafe, the sacrifices made seem pretty insane.

GPGPU 11y ago
I have to replace Mac chargers about once a year.

samstave 11y ago

I am a charger hoarder: One at work, one in the backpack, several at home. Take my phone for example - I tend to have a charger in every room of the house, several for my backpack and one at my desk.

lostgame 11y ago
This wouldn't be an issue if Apple's chargers weren't so proprietary to the point where third-party developers can't even manufacture their own devices. I wonder if they'll allow non-Apple USB-C chargers. I think they'd have to.
- frankiechh 11y ago
  See my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10634451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10634451

PhasmaFelis 11y ago

If using a product in the most obvious and intuitive way causes it to fail, it's the product's fault, not the user's. It should be redesigned so the obvious use is the correct one. Plenty of laptop power supplies have cables designed to wrap around the brick for storage and don't have failure rates like this. Apple has not implemented proper strain relief, with a perforated sleeve (presumably for aesthetic reasons), and they still use a thin, over-flexible wire. Their own website shows the cable wrapped tightly--on a page about avoiding cable damage, no less. (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201600 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201600) Blaming the user for, essentially, not being an engineer is common in the tech industry, and it really doesn't help anything, especially from a company that claims to be (and generally is!) as user-friendly as Apple.

hobs 11y ago
And that is why they have an internal kbase article talking about that cable fraying, and have safety kbases on that as well, or did 5 years ago when I worked there. - Former apple support guy

revelation 11y ago

Yes, so that's why we invented plugs. That's a thing we can do.

rzzzt 11y ago

You can also ignore the foldable hooks on the charger entirely, and wind both the low voltage cable and the power cord (if you have it attached) together in a comfortably-sized coil. This way the low voltage side doesn't have to take any sharp turns (and the other end with the power cord seems to have a stronger strain relief, which should be able to handle a light bend).

golergka 11y ago

> Instead of yanking the cable at a 90-degree angle and winding as tightly as possible But Apple's design just suggests you do exactly that :/

cptskippy 11y ago

> Apple HAS implemented strain relief Apple favors form over function and tries to make their cables in interfaces as small as possible. The result is that there's no room left in their designs for adequate strain relief. They end up using the smallest cables they can get away with and have a bushing around the cable as it enters it's housing to protect against lateral force and that's about it. There's rarely any internal strain relief mechanism.

ghaff 11y ago
The odd thing is that the cable going to the laptop is probably too thin/not stress-relived enough (I've "only" had one fail but it seems a marginal design). However, at the same time, the alternate plug with the extension length of cord attached practically looks and weighs like something I'd attach to a mainframe. I don't travel with it for that reason. It's always seemed to me as if the two different components were designed by engineers who didn't even talk to each other--and it's been that way for years. There may be a UL thing going on at the 120/240V side of the charger but it still seems ridiculously overengineered.
- r00fus 11y ago
  It doesn't look elegant and it may not be UL tested, but I've used AC cord segments from other laptops [1]. [1] http://www.newegg.com/AC-Power-Cords-for-Laptop/SubCategory/ID-2811 http://www.newegg.com/AC-Power-Cords-for-Laptop/SubCategory/...

GigabyteCoin 11y ago

The problem is that apple expects typical consumers to treat the cable with such care. Why should I have to buy 2 chargers (at $99 a pop, no less) when one charger for pretty much every other laptop company out there will work for years with "rough and careless" users, and only cost $20 to replace?

oaktowner 11y ago

I couldn't disagree more. Chargers should be durable enough to handle typical usage. People aren't "FAR too rough and careless." People behave as people behave. A high end manufacturer like Apple should be design and manufacture their devices to stand up to the rigors that people typically put them through. Why doesn't Apple? Because their user base (or at least the majority of their user base who winds chargers too tightly, which I apparently fall into) would rather buy a new charger every year or so than switch computers. It's quite profitable for them. [Edit -- fixed typo]

ksk 11y ago

I think a charger should be much more robust than this. Other laptop manufacturers have already figured out how to avoid such a simple thing. I can only speak from my own experience, and after one MB Pro and two iPhone chargers with frayed wires, I'll take my ugly Sony Vaio charger over a 'brilliantly' designed Apple one any day of the week. http://imgur.com/MYzPHOV http://imgur.com/MYzPHOV

whyenot 11y ago

How about producing a charger with more robust wiring? The power brick for my Thinkpad X200 is now more than 6 years old. It has been treated very roughly, but has thicker wires, robust strain relief, and has never failed. In the same amount of time, I've gone through three Apple chargers. It's a little silly.

HelloMcFly 11y ago

If only one brand seems to suffer from the problem, it's likely a product issue, not a user one. This is a cable, not a UI - care procedures and durability should be roughly equivalent.

Udo_Schmitz 11y ago

You know what I think? It’s not our carelessness but the plastic they use for the cables: I own 2 chargers for my MacBook. I do the loop for the charger I carry around. The one I leave home on the floor never got wound up. It looks like this after about two years: https://twitter.com/Udo/status/667295383299579905 https://twitter.com/Udo/status/667295383299579905

Crito 11y ago

> "people are FAR too" I'll stop you right there, No. Men should not serve machines. Machines should serve men. If the machine cannot take the abuse that people typically subject it to, then the design of the machine needs to be revised. Trying to modify human behaviour to suit the unnecessary mechanical limitations of machines is insane.

ars 11y ago

> The simple fact is that there is no way to make a wire that gets twisted and yanked and bent at a 90-degree angle, and which will nevertheless last forever. If you can, count how many strands are inside that wire. If it's fewer than 90 strands you know why this wire fails. I bet it's probably only 19 which is the minimum for a moving wire not to break. > That's just not a thing we can do. Yes it is. Assembly robots that move all day can have even 5,000 strands in the wires in a careful helical winding pattern that prevents the strands from being under tension - those will not break even after constant movement and folding.

FireBeyond 11y ago

Your tip is great, but I do this. I have a charger in a cable tray under my desk. Above my desk, one of these guys: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004GUS4XK http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004GUS4XK I've still had two Macbook cables fray, the sheath opening up like a paper lantern. There is near zero strain on this cable at any point.

eru 11y ago

I wonder why they didn't go for a design, where doing the natural winding would not cause a 90 degree bend. (Eg they could let the cable come out of the charger at a different angle.)

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Pinatubo 11y ago

Do you have any tips for how I should hold my phone?

Scoundreller 11y ago

Strain relief is not a discrete binary variable, but a continuous one.

hakcermani 11y ago

> Instead of yanking the cable at a 90-degree angle and winding as tightly as possible, let the cable come out of the charger naturally, perpendicular to the charger .. > own 2 of these chargers Good tips ! I do exactly this and have a charger that has lasted 5 years. Cable looks good still (touch wood !)

sehugg 11y ago

Nope. This has happened to just about every Apple cable I've ever owned. MacBook Pro power adapters. MacBook Retina power adapters. iPod cables. Lightning cables. The insulation gets frayed. Sometimes there have been sparks. This has never happened to any USB cable I've owned. It's almost as if they make a profit off of selling licensed cables with their proprietary technology or something.

frankiechh 11y ago
See my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10634451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10634451

dbg31415 11y ago

Look, engineer the thing to stand up to normal use. Way more reasonable than trying to get everyone the world over to baby their chargers. I go through about one of these chargers a year. I leave one at my desk at home, so I don't have to move it, and I take the other one with me on the road. The one I travel with gets plugged and unplugged probably 5 times a day... and it never lasts more than 6-8 months. Shitty design.

analog31 11y ago

I've always used the loop method with chargers and adapters, because of my decades as a musician dealing with various kinds of cables. When cables fail, it's invariably at one of the two ends where the cable gets bent and twisted. In fact, a bad cable can almost always be repaired by cutting off a couple inches from each end and re-attaching the plugs. Strain reliefs of various types help prolong the life of a cable, but not really by very much.

bad_user 11y ago

You're wrapping it wrong.

TwoBit 11y ago

A quality product simply wouldn't have that problem. Quality means it can take some abuse, and you see it all the time in tools for many professions.

greggman 11y ago

That's not my experience. I don't yank my power cable and after replacing 2 of them I now wrap up the cable leaving a 4 inch loop of cable coming out of the adapter. So there's no 90 degree twist where the wire comes out of the adapter. Unfortunately there's still often a 90 degree turn where it connects to my MBP. I've found no reliable way to prevent that.

runholm 11y ago

If people in general are not careful enough with the product, it sounds to me as the product is not built well enough for regular use.

fit2rule 11y ago

My tip for trouble-free cable management: Never wind the cable. Always fold it. Always. Whether its a rope, a cable, whatever: every time you wind it, you twist the fibers. Instead, grab both ends, hold them together, untangle and pull the two sides together .. find the new ends, combine them, fold, over and over .. until you get a nice tidy package. This treats the cable much nicer - its built for expanding in the combined loops, but when you wind .. and wind .. and wind .. you twist the fibers. Fold, don't twist!

mcv 11y ago

It's not just an issue with Macbook chargers; my wife's iPhone and iPhad chargers are in far worse condition. They keep falling apart in new and creative ways that my micro-USB chargers don't.