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Net neutrality has always been a solution in search of a problem. The theory has always been that the big bad ISPs will destroy the internet for the little guy.

Net neutrality has always been a solution in search of a problem. The theory has always been that the big bad ISPs will destroy the internet for the little guy. Any FCC implementation of net neutrality should make sure customers are being harmed or some other anti-competitive actions are occuring. But telling Tmobile they can't allow free video on their network is an unwarranted intrusion into their business model. Should the government tell Google they have to charge for Gmail?

jsprogrammer 11y ago
>Should the government tell Google they have to charge for Gmail? Mis-analogize much? Google isn't exactly an ISP like TMobile is. Also, email is text based and uses near-to-no bandwidth compared to video.
- rhino369 11y ago
  You could come up with reasons why Google shouldn't be allowed to give away Gmail. They use their search monopoly. They monetize it by spying on the contents of the email. It's not a 1 to 1 parallel. I mostly meant why do you think Tmobile's business plan should be controlled by the FCC but Google should do what it wants.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    >I mostly meant why do you think Tmobile's business plan should be controlled by the FCC but Google should do what it wants. The FCC controls TMobile's business plans in the way the FBI controls organized crime. If the principles of the Internet are to be maintained, traffic prioritization as a monetization scheme needs to be carefully monitored and most likely snuffed out.
erose1 11y ago
Their business model is supposed to be to provide access to all data, not to act as a gatekeeper and decide what sort of data people should consume. I don't think your comparison to Google is at all analogous to what is going on here.
- rhino369 11y ago
  Who says their business model to provide access to all data equally. That certainly hasn't been the way they've operated. The used to charge tons of money for text's data while voice data was considerably cheaper.
- netneutralish 11y ago
  They're not acting as a gatekeeper in the strict sense of the word, because T-Mobile is allowing customers to opt-out of the zero-rating services and have the data count against their data buckets. Most issues with gatekeepers are what they don't allow people to consume; in this case, they're not placing a restriction. If people wish to stand their ground on principle, this particular carrier is giving them the option to do so by opting completely out of the program (at least according to the article).
Dylan16807 11y ago
"Free video" is not really a problem, as long as it applies to all video. But let me ask you something. Do you think the rules that force telephone companies to connect to everyone are a bad thing? I think the way that's been handled is good, and that forcing data caps to apply equally is pretty similar.
- netneutralish 11y ago
  The regulation that forced telephone companies to connect to everyone is good in my books. That is an accessibility concern. If you're going to use that as the analogy, I'd say the content accessibility concern over wireless networks (in this case, T-Mobile) is also being met. Data caps still apply to all T-Mobile wireless subscribers also, although I can see that the spirit of your argument is that carriers shouldn't try to exert influence over data endpoints (typically referred to as "content"). But, using your same POTS analogy, does this mean that 1-800 toll-free numbers should have been banned or regulated out of existence? The interesting point is that in this case, T-Mobile is working around the FCC Net Neutrality laws by making it clear that this is a free program for specific content partners to participate in; it's like "free toll-free" for content that might appeal the most to consumers (streaming audio and video).
  - Dylan16807 11y ago
    Good question about toll-free numbers. I think the difference is that a business pays their phone provider to do toll free service. It's closer to buying a better line to the internet than it is negotiating with individual consumer ISPs for preferred service. Competition rather than the ISP taking advantage of being the only path.
- rhino369 11y ago
  A lot of the classic telecom regulations were taken at a time when the telephone company had a legal monopoly over all customers. Everyone had to sign up with AT&T. So there were very good reasons the government got to dictate their business models. It was quid pro quo. But I don't think interchangeability is the same as treating them equally. AT&T had to connect you to anywhere globally, but it didn't have to do it for the same price. Local vs. long distance vs. international. Some cellphone companies even had "pick 5 free number" plans. Nothing bad happened. Plus the internet seems to achieve total interactivity without it being mandated. Though a lot of the backbone internet came from regulated telecomms. Maybe I can't count on the internet developing in a free for all.
Nyetan 11y ago
Behold, the problem net neutrality has searched for: Bell Mobility circa 2013 [1]. For $5, you could buy either 10 hours of Bell Mobile TV™ or ~1.5 hours of Netflix (not including your subscription) [2]. Assumptions below. The story has a happy ending, in that the Canadian equivalent of the FCC wound up forcing them to change their pricing after four or five years [3]. Whoo. What's a few million dollars between friends. Make up your own mind as to whether you want this to be your future. Assumptions: 1 Mbit/s video streams Data purchased in 5GB ($35) chunks. Note that, if purchased in 500 MB chunks, one can watch 15 minutes of Netflix, which is laughable and therefore not presented due to shock value. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20121220034331/http://www.bell.ca/Mobility/Entertainment/Mobile_TV/ https://web.archive.org/web/20121220034331/http://www.bell.c...? [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20130102055752/http://www.bell.ca/Mobility/Cell_phone_plans/Tablet_PC_data_plans/30_Day_Pass.tab https://web.archive.org/web/20130102055752/http://www.bell.c... [3]:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bell-denied-right-to-exempt-mobile-tv-customers-from-data-cap/article23581892/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bell-denie...

jsprogrammer 11y ago

>Should the government tell Google they have to charge for Gmail? Mis-analogize much? Google isn't exactly an ISP like TMobile is. Also, email is text based and uses near-to-no bandwidth compared to video.

rhino369 11y ago
You could come up with reasons why Google shouldn't be allowed to give away Gmail. They use their search monopoly. They monetize it by spying on the contents of the email. It's not a 1 to 1 parallel. I mostly meant why do you think Tmobile's business plan should be controlled by the FCC but Google should do what it wants.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  >I mostly meant why do you think Tmobile's business plan should be controlled by the FCC but Google should do what it wants. The FCC controls TMobile's business plans in the way the FBI controls organized crime. If the principles of the Internet are to be maintained, traffic prioritization as a monetization scheme needs to be carefully monitored and most likely snuffed out.

erose1 11y ago

Their business model is supposed to be to provide access to all data, not to act as a gatekeeper and decide what sort of data people should consume. I don't think your comparison to Google is at all analogous to what is going on here.

rhino369 11y ago
Who says their business model to provide access to all data equally. That certainly hasn't been the way they've operated. The used to charge tons of money for text's data while voice data was considerably cheaper.
netneutralish 11y ago
They're not acting as a gatekeeper in the strict sense of the word, because T-Mobile is allowing customers to opt-out of the zero-rating services and have the data count against their data buckets. Most issues with gatekeepers are what they don't allow people to consume; in this case, they're not placing a restriction. If people wish to stand their ground on principle, this particular carrier is giving them the option to do so by opting completely out of the program (at least according to the article).

Dylan16807 11y ago

"Free video" is not really a problem, as long as it applies to all video. But let me ask you something. Do you think the rules that force telephone companies to connect to everyone are a bad thing? I think the way that's been handled is good, and that forcing data caps to apply equally is pretty similar.

netneutralish 11y ago
The regulation that forced telephone companies to connect to everyone is good in my books. That is an accessibility concern. If you're going to use that as the analogy, I'd say the content accessibility concern over wireless networks (in this case, T-Mobile) is also being met. Data caps still apply to all T-Mobile wireless subscribers also, although I can see that the spirit of your argument is that carriers shouldn't try to exert influence over data endpoints (typically referred to as "content"). But, using your same POTS analogy, does this mean that 1-800 toll-free numbers should have been banned or regulated out of existence? The interesting point is that in this case, T-Mobile is working around the FCC Net Neutrality laws by making it clear that this is a free program for specific content partners to participate in; it's like "free toll-free" for content that might appeal the most to consumers (streaming audio and video).
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  Good question about toll-free numbers. I think the difference is that a business pays their phone provider to do toll free service. It's closer to buying a better line to the internet than it is negotiating with individual consumer ISPs for preferred service. Competition rather than the ISP taking advantage of being the only path.
rhino369 11y ago
A lot of the classic telecom regulations were taken at a time when the telephone company had a legal monopoly over all customers. Everyone had to sign up with AT&T. So there were very good reasons the government got to dictate their business models. It was quid pro quo. But I don't think interchangeability is the same as treating them equally. AT&T had to connect you to anywhere globally, but it didn't have to do it for the same price. Local vs. long distance vs. international. Some cellphone companies even had "pick 5 free number" plans. Nothing bad happened. Plus the internet seems to achieve total interactivity without it being mandated. Though a lot of the backbone internet came from regulated telecomms. Maybe I can't count on the internet developing in a free for all.

Nyetan 11y ago

Behold, the problem net neutrality has searched for: Bell Mobility circa 2013 [1]. For $5, you could buy either 10 hours of Bell Mobile TV™ or ~1.5 hours of Netflix (not including your subscription) [2]. Assumptions below. The story has a happy ending, in that the Canadian equivalent of the FCC wound up forcing them to change their pricing after four or five years [3]. Whoo. What's a few million dollars between friends. Make up your own mind as to whether you want this to be your future. Assumptions: 1 Mbit/s video streams Data purchased in 5GB ($35) chunks. Note that, if purchased in 500 MB chunks, one can watch 15 minutes of Netflix, which is laughable and therefore not presented due to shock value. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20121220034331/http://www.bell.ca/Mobility/Entertainment/Mobile_TV/ https://web.archive.org/web/20121220034331/http://www.bell.c...? [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20130102055752/http://www.bell.ca/Mobility/Cell_phone_plans/Tablet_PC_data_plans/30_Day_Pass.tab https://web.archive.org/web/20130102055752/http://www.bell.c... [3]:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bell-denied-right-to-exempt-mobile-tv-customers-from-data-cap/article23581892/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bell-denie...