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The repeated attacks, heavy immigration of refugees...I'm hoping for the best, but I feel like there is a powder keg here. Whether or not it is based in any fa
by jmspring 11y ago
The repeated attacks, heavy immigration of refugees...I'm hoping for the best, but I feel like there is a powder keg here. Whether or not it is based in any fact, how this is handled and plays out is a serious concern.
- PhasmaFelis 11y agoIndeed. I'm sure a bunch of dipshits are already claiming that this is what happens when you allow Muslims into your country, somehow. Gonna wind up hurting a lot more innocent people.
- chinathrow 11y agoIndeed - and calls for more surveillance will follow the next day. 100% sure. Terrible what happened, to say so. RIP.
- mikeash 11y agoCan we at least wait until people start saying these things before we complain? I'm getting tired of seeing a bunch of comments complaining about other people supposedly making arguments of which I see no trace.
- bonaldi 11y agoThere are people making that argument literally in this thread. They're not saying "Muslims" but they're using terms like "culture" as signifiers.
- mikeash 11y agoGo reply to them, then. Don't add to the clutter by repeating their arguments as a straw man.
- Swizec 11y agoOpen twitter. Every tweet on this topic has a bunch of replies complaining about muslims and migrants. Even the first comment on HackerNews contained an anti-islamic sentiment jabbing at the migrant crisis.
- mikeash 11y agoThe whole point is to avoid all the nonsense like what you're saying is on Twitter.
- jacquesm 11y agoThat wait was over more than an hour ago, unfortunately.
- PhasmaFelis 11y agoI suppose I could have been clearer. People are already making those arguments in the comments of practically every news story on the subject. It is the central dynamic that perpetuates all this violence. Someone from Group A kills dozens or hundreds of Group B, which uses the violence as an excuse to oppress thousands of Group A, which uses the oppression as an excuse to kill more of Group B, and this goes on and on for decades long after everyone's forgotten who "started" it or why, because both sides have convinced themselves, against all logic and evidence of history, that if they just hurt the other guys enough they'll give up and be nice. It is never going to end until we find a way to break the cycle. The only way I can think of to contribute is to be a voice condemning the violent bigots on both sides, and trying to separate them from the millions of innocents that they claim to represent. It's not much. It probably isn't anything at all. But what else can I do?
- mikeash 11y agoA large part of the reason I avoid comments on sites like that, and read HN comments, is precisely to avoid nonsense like this. You're just perpetuating the nonsense. Yes, you're against it, but your comment is little more than the sentiment you're against, plus a statement of opposition.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago"Howdy, lefties? Still arguing for disarming the citizens and letting in imigrants without control?" -- a (translation of a) friend's post on Facebook I just saw. Yes, they will make those comments. They always do, even if nothing is happening.
- mikeash 11y agoYes, and they should be kept to Facebook and news article comment sections where they belong, not brought preemptively here.
- TeMPOraL 11y agoFair enough. But it doesn't change the fact that general population will say these things, and it's them, not HN crowd, that shapes policy. I am seriously, true to God, afraid of what's going to happen now - afraid of overreaction of people and governments.
- mikeash 11y agoI just want to see intelligent discourse, whatever the topic may be. Preemptively stating some nonsense before the people who believe it can get there hurts discourse just as much as when it's stated for real.
- aws_ls 11y ago> But it doesn't change the fact that general population will say these things, and it's them, not HN crowd What about thought leadership? I know its a cliche beaten to death perhaps, but still I think people are able to see a raised level of discourse, than theirs, while they may not always leave their hard positions and immediately agree. But there's also this balancing act, that we need to do, of not wanting to get into an argument of certain kinds.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago> But there's also this balancing act, that we need to do, of not wanting to get into an argument of certain kinds. Well, ok. It took me a while after I posted my responses to (sort-of) understand where 'mikeash was going. I initially thought he was disputing the existence or possibility of those comments, so me and others were providing proofs and arguments that they in fact exist. I think now that 'mikeash wanted us to not accidentally fall from quoting some arguments to actually using and discussing them, but I also still think the meta-level issue is something worth thinking about. We all know general population will say stupid things, because GenPop always says stupid things in situations like that, and those calls will drown reasonable public discussion and they will shape public policy - so it is worth asking, what to do about it? How to prevent this situation from spiralling out of control?
- untog 11y agoWhat do people think the refugees were running away from? Exactly these people.
- tiatia 11y agoUnfortunately, they bring the thing they are running away from, with them. Their backward culture.
- Cthulhu_ 11y agoI think a major problem is that even they can't know who among them - in the big groups of refugees making the journey - is an isis member or supporter, and even if they're not, there's no telling who is going to radicalise in the future. The attacks earlier this year in paris weren't done by someone that came from that area, iirc.
- toyg 11y agoRefugees carry little more than their shirts in their travels. Those guns and grenades didn't come with refugees. End of story.
- philwelch 11y agoGuns and grenades are not that hard to get, even in Europe. The limiting factor is how many people are willing to lay siege to a concert hall and calmly execute a hundred people, and whether some of those people were let in under the guise of "refugees".
- stsp 11y agoCome on. Don't blame refugees. Normal people are refugees. Refugees are normal people. Their problems are rooted in abuse of power. http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/11/a-perilous-journey-khalids-story-syrian-refugee http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/11/... http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/12/a-perilous-journey-haskos-story-syrian-refugee http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/12/... http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/13/a-perilous-journey-mohammads-story-syrian-refugee http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/13/...
- gotchange 11y agoI believe that France didn't open its borders to this wave of refugees/migrants but I could be mistaken since I don't follow the news this closely.
- cm2187 11y agoFrance cannot really control the wave of migrants anyway. But it is unlikely that the terrorists are one of these migrants. My guess is that they were French nationals/residents.
- AlexB138 11y ago>My guess is that they were French nationals/residents. Based on what? I'm pretty uninformed here, and it seems like a lot of people are bringing up refugees. Curious why you think the opposite.
- cm2187 11y agoWe do not know yet the identities of the terrorists, so only a guess based on the previous three years of attacks in France.
- cm2187 11y agoalso the TVs are mentioning terrorists speaking French, which if confirmed strongly support this guess.
- aikah 11y agoWhat he means is french muslims , which are nationals/residents. Charlie Hebdo attackers were french nationals, though having a north african/african background.
- cm2187 11y agoAlmost certainly. But it does make a difference. Most French muslims come from Algeria and Marrocco and can't really claim to have been affected by the war in Syria. There are deeper roots to home grown terrorism than the Syrian conflict.
- roadbeats 11y agoHow many refugee camps does France have? Let me answer you: 0 Refugees are victims of the war. If they wanted to involve violence, they would not be refugees looking for home. Why to see them as potential terrorists ?
- saryant 11y agoThat's not true, France does have refugee camps.
- roadbeats 11y agoI volunteered two different refugee camp constructions in Syrian border and I know the difference between a refugee camp and a homeless camp clearly.
- tonfa 11y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calais_jungle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calais_jungle
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- Animats 11y agoThe Calais camp is on fire.[1] [1] http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/calais-migrant-camp-on-fire-6830330 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/calais-migrant-camp-...
- jacquesm 11y agoOh shit.
- acjohnson55 11y agoCompounding terror with terror. Doubly sad.
- stefantalpalaru 11y ago> heavy immigration of refugees It's much more likely that the terrorists come from the frustrated youth born and raised in France, than some fresh immigrants.
- qb45 11y agoHonestly, I'm curious what makes you think that the children of the new ones will be different? When people like, say, Angela Merkel, advocate blindly accepting all those thousands of refuges smuggled to the EU, I just can't really understand - what's the point?
- stefantalpalaru 11y agoThe point is that our pensions system is crashing because people stopped making 2.2 children on average because they no longer needed children to survive in their old age. They payed their taxes so they have a guaranteed pension, right? Wrong, those taxes were already used to pay the pensions in the same year they were collected. Now the shrinking work force is straining itself to pay for the increasing number of old farts, and the future is bleak. We need young immigrants in Europe. We need them to work for us and make children for us. At least until they get rich and complacent like us and settle for 1 child per family. There are ways to integrate them culturally, once their children are in our school system. And there are ways to avoid the chronic poverty and marginalization that plagues french banlieues. What we don't have is a way to keep paying those pensions with more and more pensioners leeching on fewer and fewer workers.
- cm2187 11y agoThe far right is already the largest party in France. The reasons for its strength have actually less to do with immigration than the continuous state of crisis of the French economy combined with the corruption of the political establishment. But the Charlie Hebdo attacks in January noticeably increased the anti-islam sentiment in France and I am ready to bet that this night's events will be another step up.
- RogtamBar 11y ago> The reasons for its strength have actually less to do with immigration than the continuous state of crisis of the French economy combined with the corruption of the political establishment. The political establishment in France is in thrall to a radical, globalist agenda that seeks to increase its power by performing 'divide and conquer'. A multicultural society has many more fault lines that can be exploited for political gain. One has only to look at how miserably the US is faring and how Americans are getting it good and hard from the donor class..
- noobermin 11y agoOfftopic, but while multiculturalism makes certain things difficult (like congress in the US now, agreeing on policy) diversity also helps in other ways (like being able to understand and deal with those who aren't like you and don't agree with you). One example of an extremely sucessful, multicultural society is Singapore. And, be honest, for all of America's faults, it's still a world power and one of the largest economies in the world.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- SHIT_TALKER 11y agoOne example of an extremely sucessful, multicultural society is Singapore. So that's one. And one overseen and enforced by an autocrat.
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- vonnik 11y agoIt's really important to understand the Muslim community in France, and not evoke false connections. We don't know if the attackers had anything to with the flux of Syrian migrants moving across Europe now, but my guess would be: they had nothing to do with it. There are about 5 million Muslims in France, which accounts for about 7 percent of France's total population. France has deep, long-standing and often troubled ties to several Muslim nations, notably Algeria. The French presence in Algeria lasted from 1830-1962. During the Algerian civil war of the 1990s, France was targeted by terrorist attacks several times. One of those bombings EDIT: injured more than 100 people, which may be the number lost in the attacks today. There are several basic facts that may help people understand why these attacks happen in France (I'm going to make some crude and unsympathetic generalizations that stem from the years I spent there): * It's close to Middle Eastern and North African countries torn by conflict, notably Libya and Syria. These are training grounds for would-be attackers, many of whom originate in the west. * Because of that, and of the fact that France rejoined NATO in 2009 and put itself firmly on the side of the US, it is also a proxy for the US, and will be targeted by those unhappy with American policies. * It's racist. France has not dealt with the fact that people other than the French live on its soil. If you are the child of immigrants who were invited to France to help its post-War growth, you soon learn that a Muslim name will exclude you from many opportunities. * Its economy is stagnant. France is no country for young men. They will face limited opportunities regardless of their ethnicity, unless they belong to the elite passing through the grandes écoles. This leads to a lot of frustration. When people cannot build a life in one direction, sometimes they are susceptible to morbid, violent ideologies. * It's sloppy. I lived in France for 14 years, on either side of the 9/11 attacks on Manhattan. The French were really slow to put respectable security systems in place. CDG airport leaked like a sieve for years and I have no reason to believe that has changed. Anyone who wants to know more about Islam in France should read Gilles Kepel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_Kepel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_Kepel He wrote a particularly good book in the 1980s called "The suburbs of Islam".
- tonfa 11y agoCorrection: 1995 attacks killed 8 and injured 100 (Puts the current attack in perspective, I don't think anything similar ever happened)
- lfam 11y agoThe population of France is about 7.5% Muslim. France has had a close relationship with the Muslim world since the 19th century when they colonized parts of North Africa and the Middle East. Sadly, the position in French society of colonial immigrants and their descendants is not very high. Also sadly, France has had a lot of experience with this sort of violence, both in the colonies and "at home". If you know the attacks were carried out by Muslims, there's no reason to assume these attacks were carried out by refugees.
- SHIT_TALKER 11y agoContext: It was French colonization that put an end to the predations of the Barbary pirates and the Arab slave trade.
- mercurial 11y agoContext: the French king Charles X was in a difficult political situation and needed money, so attacking the then-Ottoman-dominated Algeria looked like a good idea at the time. The slave trade had stopped years ago, and the pirate activity, while not over, was way down.
- SHIT_TALKER 11y agoThe slave trade had stopped years ago, and the pirate activity, while not over, was way down. Thanks to military defeats at the hands of Americans, English, and Dutch.
- mercurial 11y agoI'm not sure where you're going with that.
- Asbostos 11y agoYes, people like to blame the outsider, no matter how ridiculous it is. Ever hear a news story about an angry partner killing a spouse? About a person stabbed to death in the street? Pushed in front of a train? Hit by a car? Most of these you'll never hear of because they're such routine daily occurrences. They're done by US! Normal local people who grew up here (wherever that might be). Nevermind refugees. People everywhere are much more dangerous than any terrorists. Somehow we don't like the idea of banning everyone from everywhere so we feel justified in judging one group as more dangerous than another to give us a sense of safety.
- pje 11y agoHow dare you mention refugees in the same sentence as this tragedy? Shame.
- icewater 11y agoThats a perfectly reasonable thing to mention.
- TeMPOraL 11y agoI am afraid. Seriously. I'm scared about my life and life of my family, and the civilization we enjoy in Europe. There was a lot of mess already with the current immigration crisis. Now add that attack, and like you said, it's a powder keg, except I'm afraid that this shooting may have just lit the fuse. People will be connecting those two issues. They already are, judging from things that start popping up on my Facebook feed. I fear the overreaction coming, of both citizens and governments. I fear the Europe will split, or start a war with someone, or draconian security measures will be introduced by the government. Charlie Hebdo was symbolic. This was a real terror strike. I just hope that sanity prevails and we won't amplify the damage further.
- Kequc 11y agoYou had me for the first line. But then you clarified throughout the rest of your post that the reason you are scared is that you are afraid of the west. Can you bend over any further backwards, in any way at all, would that be possible.
- TeMPOraL 11y agoI'm not sure what you mean here. Me and my family are in no immediate danger now. We don't live near France. But between the war in Ukraine (actually quite closer to my home) and immigration crisis, the perceived tension is pretty high. I am afraid because things like this tend to spiral out of control, and society is a fragile thing.
- cronjobber 11y agoVery probably this: > I fear the overreaction coming, of both citizens and governments. This is pretty much the standard official and media reaction to these kind of events. You're supposed to fear the "backlash" more than the terrorism. Yes, dear French people, this was bad, but the real catastrophe would be voting for Le Pen or ending Mid-East and African immigration. That's what the OP probably meant. If you think about it, don't you think it is a somewhat unnatural reaction to being under attack, to always end up fearing those who didn't initiate the attack?