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Inside I think of myself as young. If you really did, then you wouldn't have even written this post. Like Dave Winer, I am also 54 and absolutely do not care

by edw519 17y ago

Inside I think of myself as young. If you really did, then you wouldn't have even written this post. Like Dave Winer, I am also 54 and absolutely do not care what anyone else thinks about it. When I first started out I quickly rose through the enterprise ranks and was never taken seriously because of my age. As a wimpy looking nerd, I had always been underestimated by others and I found a way to use that to my advantage. When the time was right, I would just shoot them between the eyes with the right solution. My young age didn't matter. Fast forward 30 years. I never notice age discrimination. It may be there, but I simply don't notice it. I think being in IT and in my 50's is a tremendous advantage. For every issue I have to address, I have that many more instances of experience dealing with something like that. Many more iterations of similar patterns to draw from. IT is one field where you can actually get better with age. You don't have to run fast or carry heavy loads, but you do have to think nimbly and get things done, both of which get better with lots of practice. IT is also one field where "what you get done" is more important than "who you are". This is always good news for us hackers and makers, regardless of age, sex, background, or anything else. I am currently writing the best software of my life, by far. Not just how I'm writing it, but what I'm writing. I have seen so much that I have a natural instinct for what is needed, what works, and how to best go about it. New technologies keep me fresh and engaged. I feel perfectly at home here at hn even though I'm older than most of you. I can't imagine a better place to be, with 21st century technology and 30 years experience! To me it's odd that someone as accomplished as Dave Winer doesn't feel the same way. Then again, maybe it's just state of mind. My grandmother taught me one of the most important lessons of my life, "If you look hard enough for trouble, you'll probably find it." There is negativity everywhere, about ageism and a million other things. The secret is that it's only data to process as you choose. I have decided to ignore it and continue to do what I love and love what I do. I suspect that Dave should as well.

cnunciato 17y ago
Agreed. Of course, the ageism's definitely out there; if you're able to ignore it, good on you. What I can say, though, is that I've learned a hell of a lot more from older programmers than I ever have from younger ones.
ams6110 17y ago
For every issue I have to address, I have that many more instances of experience dealing with something like that. Many more iterations of similar patterns to draw from. I wholeheartedly agree. I'm 43, and have worked in IT for about 20 years. Even in that span of time I've seen the same ideas gain popularity, fade, then return again (under another name, or in newer packaging, but fundamentally the same old concepts). Gives you a lot of perspective to be able to avoid getting caught up in the breathless enthusiasm of younger people returning from the latest conference or trade show.
coriander 17y ago
Like Dave Winer, I am also 54 and absolutely do not care what anyone else thinks about it. Perhaps that explains why you are also less likely to perceive it when it happens. Perhaps Dave Winer is more sensitive to this issue and that explains why he notices it more. I doubt that he is imagining this since you are one of the few people in IT that I have heard having a contrary experience. Perhaps you are simply an outlier.
- allenbrunson 17y ago
  I am guessing it could have a lot to do with the fact that Dave Winer is known to be a bit of a crank! He's historically gotten into a lot of ugly arguments, regardless of his age. It seems crazy to me now, but I worried most about ageism when I was around 38. I had just started a job in the Bay Area where almost everybody else was in their early twenties. To the extent that there was a problem, it was all in my head. I am now 46, I have a much better perspective on it, and I don't think about it at all. I suppose it is possible that I have been discriminated against during job searches, but I've got plenty of more important things to worry about.
  - joe_the_user 17y ago
    Well, age discrimination tends to become a personal issue when a person can be effected by it. Age is naturally only one factor in this. If you happen to be in situation where age discrimination can't effect you, well, that's great. If you think that's an excuse not to consider it as an important social issue, well, that's lousy.
    - allenbrunson 17y ago
      I guess I think that it is not a social issue for me, and it's up to others to make their own interpretations. I think there are a lot of disadvantages that could drag you down: you're losing your hair, you're short, you're ugly, your parents put you through a rotten childhood, and so on. But you can always find examples of people who have those same disadvantages and are thriving anyway. I knew this girl once who thought she was ugly. She mentioned that it goes beyond mere social conditioning, that even newborn babies react more favorably to pretty people. So I said: who would a newborn react more favorably to, a pretty stranger or her own homely mother? If I am facing some type of disadvantage, I am always going to be looking for a way to stack the deck in my favor to get around it.
kscaldef 17y ago
> To me it's odd that someone as accomplished as Dave Winer doesn't feel the same way. Then again, maybe it's just state of mind Keep in mind that Winer doesn't seem to be talking about ageism that's directly aimed at him. His examples are public figures and general cultural attitudes.
nir 17y ago
>"I think being in IT and in my 50's is a tremendous advantage." I believe you, but can't help but wonder if you find that potential employers see it this way as well? Some companies (Facebook comes to mind..) are reluctant to even hire people in their 30s, as they are not as receptive to "free pizza/code till 10pm" working style. Once you've reached the kids & mortgage stage, unless you're a genius or an executive, your choices are severely limited as far as startups go.
- hcayless 17y ago
  That's definitely true. I see that as corporate culture though: if your culture is such that you work all the time, then we aren't a good fit for each other. I like spending time with my family.

by edw519 17y ago

cnunciato 17y ago

Agreed. Of course, the ageism's definitely out there; if you're able to ignore it, good on you. What I can say, though, is that I've learned a hell of a lot more from older programmers than I ever have from younger ones.

ams6110 17y ago

For every issue I have to address, I have that many more instances of experience dealing with something like that. Many more iterations of similar patterns to draw from. I wholeheartedly agree. I'm 43, and have worked in IT for about 20 years. Even in that span of time I've seen the same ideas gain popularity, fade, then return again (under another name, or in newer packaging, but fundamentally the same old concepts). Gives you a lot of perspective to be able to avoid getting caught up in the breathless enthusiasm of younger people returning from the latest conference or trade show.

coriander 17y ago

Like Dave Winer, I am also 54 and absolutely do not care what anyone else thinks about it. Perhaps that explains why you are also less likely to perceive it when it happens. Perhaps Dave Winer is more sensitive to this issue and that explains why he notices it more. I doubt that he is imagining this since you are one of the few people in IT that I have heard having a contrary experience. Perhaps you are simply an outlier.

allenbrunson 17y ago
I am guessing it could have a lot to do with the fact that Dave Winer is known to be a bit of a crank! He's historically gotten into a lot of ugly arguments, regardless of his age. It seems crazy to me now, but I worried most about ageism when I was around 38. I had just started a job in the Bay Area where almost everybody else was in their early twenties. To the extent that there was a problem, it was all in my head. I am now 46, I have a much better perspective on it, and I don't think about it at all. I suppose it is possible that I have been discriminated against during job searches, but I've got plenty of more important things to worry about.
- joe_the_user 17y ago
  Well, age discrimination tends to become a personal issue when a person can be effected by it. Age is naturally only one factor in this. If you happen to be in situation where age discrimination can't effect you, well, that's great. If you think that's an excuse not to consider it as an important social issue, well, that's lousy.
  - allenbrunson 17y ago
    I guess I think that it is not a social issue for me, and it's up to others to make their own interpretations. I think there are a lot of disadvantages that could drag you down: you're losing your hair, you're short, you're ugly, your parents put you through a rotten childhood, and so on. But you can always find examples of people who have those same disadvantages and are thriving anyway. I knew this girl once who thought she was ugly. She mentioned that it goes beyond mere social conditioning, that even newborn babies react more favorably to pretty people. So I said: who would a newborn react more favorably to, a pretty stranger or her own homely mother? If I am facing some type of disadvantage, I am always going to be looking for a way to stack the deck in my favor to get around it.

kscaldef 17y ago

> To me it's odd that someone as accomplished as Dave Winer doesn't feel the same way. Then again, maybe it's just state of mind Keep in mind that Winer doesn't seem to be talking about ageism that's directly aimed at him. His examples are public figures and general cultural attitudes.

nir 17y ago

>"I think being in IT and in my 50's is a tremendous advantage." I believe you, but can't help but wonder if you find that potential employers see it this way as well? Some companies (Facebook comes to mind..) are reluctant to even hire people in their 30s, as they are not as receptive to "free pizza/code till 10pm" working style. Once you've reached the kids & mortgage stage, unless you're a genius or an executive, your choices are severely limited as far as startups go.

hcayless 17y ago
That's definitely true. I see that as corporate culture though: if your culture is such that you work all the time, then we aren't a good fit for each other. I like spending time with my family.