8 ms·

Africans are mainly rich or poor, but not middle class

62 points by luu 11y ago

joe_the_user 11y ago
The problem is that the dominant model of development today seems to involve increased wealth inequality rather than the creation of a stable middle class. For example, China's development has involved considerable wealth inequality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_China
- jvm 11y ago
  Most income inequality (taken on a worldwide basis) is between country, not within country. Overall global income inequality is dropping considerably, with China playing a large part. > https://twitter.com/bill_easterly/status/621684418558734337 https://twitter.com/bill_easterly/status/621684418558734337 > https://twitter.com/bill_easterly/status/654709684985688064 https://twitter.com/bill_easterly/status/654709684985688064
  - joe_the_user 11y ago
    World scale inequality seems like a bit of a canard. If inequality between nations drops, a measure of inequality on a world scale could drop while inequality within each particular nation increases. China or Africa's development means the average very poor person is closer to the average Westerner, dropping total inequality. But that doesn't stop recent models of development from involving considerable inequality and indeed a model of inequality (just as inequality has increased within the US). Moreover, it's the inequality within each area that one would expect to have the harmful or beneficial effects on democracy, civil society and so-forth. Edit: Of course it is hard to reply to a link to a tweet of a bit map of a graph with resolution too poor to read the references of, hence my general comment.
    - jvm 11y ago
      I think you are right that there are still disadvantages to within-country inequality, but I strongly disagree with the dismissal you seem to be making of the massive reduction in country-level inequality and accompanying massive reduction of extreme poverty, which has plunged from ~40% of the world population in the 1980's to <20% now. > it's the inequality within each area that one would expect to have the harmful or beneficial effects on democracy, civil society and so-forth. You seem to be implying that extreme poverty does not also cause adverse effects on democracy, civil society, and so forth. My guess is that having massive populations of people living at or below subsistence is also harmful to democracy and civil society. If you look at the kind of problems they have in relatively equal [1] Sudan (mass malnutrition, militias literally raping and pillaging) to relatively unequal [1] United States (police violence, poor health care provision), I hope we can acknowledge the problems in the US without denying that they are orders of magnitude less severe. The difference is in the amount of absolute extreme poverty, not the inequality. BTW if you click on the images in the links you can access the high res versions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...
    - meric 11y ago
      I agree. The vast majority of people in the world have access to housing, water, internet, toilet, transportation. Yes, they might have their own motorbike instead of car, but really, the qualitative difference is not the 10x as suggested by the difference in prices of those two things. Sure, the sidewalk sometimes is very rough, and the drainage on the side of the road carry heavily polluted water, and the outside of houses might not be painted. Inside most homes around the world, however, are quite pleasant. Give this house a fresh coat of paint, and it'd fit just fine as a home in a developed country: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/05/article-1255622-08911939000005DC-998_468x313.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/05/article-1255622-08...
BorisMelnik 11y ago
Isn't this kind of exactly the same sentiment as "the middle class is disappearing in the USA?"
- johansch 11y ago
  Taken to an extreme.
- RyanZAG 11y ago
  It's kind of the opposite. Scroll down to the chart showing 2004 vs 2014. The middle class is actually growing very rapidly - far more rapidly than the growth of the middle class during industrial revolution Europe, and in contrast to the shrinking middle class of USA today. Anybody complaining it is 'too slow' is living in a dream world without realizing that moving classes takes generations of effort and enormous culture shifts. Something as simple from using a hole in the ground as a toilet to the huge infrastructure of piped plumbing from dams is an enormous change in culture. Take the monthly costs of such infrastructure which must be paid and enforced across a population that previously did not have those kinds of burdens for a quick spot check on culture.
  - astazangasta 11y ago
    >moving classes takes generations of effort and enormous culture shifts. This is wrong. I recommend reading Ha-Joon Chang,a wonderful heterodox economist who is fond of pointing out that his native South Korea went from the development status of Madagascar to one of the largest economies in the world in a scant 50 years. This doesn't take forever.
    - DevX101 11y ago
      Any books you'd recommend from him/her?
      - astazangasta 11y ago
        I liked 'Bad Samaritans', which is attacking conventional wisdom on trade liberalisation. He also had a great series of food columns in the FT this summer - discussions that began with carrots and segued into Dutch trade wars, worth a read.
tertius 11y ago
I'd add that rich is relative. I'm South African and I generally agree with this assertion but poor is defined as something that is really non-existant in the U.S. And minimum wage here, is really the bottom end of what would be considered middle class. So the title is not very informative to someone not used to the context. * I'm South African living in Houston, TX.
- eveningcoffee 11y ago
  * I'm South African living in Houston, TX. * I am sorry, what is "here" then here?
  - mc32 11y ago
    I think it's the article's point of reference.
  - tertius 11y ago
    I see that it was confusing. > And minimum wage here, is really the bottom end of what would be considered middle class. Should be: > And minimum wage here, is really the bottom end of what would be considered middle class there.
- Retric 11y ago
  Minimum wage does not qualify for middle class. The idea is it's what's between the rich and the working class. So ~50% to ~95-99% income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_middle_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_middle_class So, ~50k to ~170k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence_in_the_United_States Programmers generally qualify but a dental assistants @35k generally does not.
  - tertius 11y ago
    I'm sorry, my wording was confusing and not clear enough. > And minimum wage here, is really the bottom end of what would be considered middle class. Should be: > And minimum wage here, is really the bottom end of what would be considered middle class there.
cup 11y ago
"On a continent once synonymous with war, famine and poverty," I always find it interesting how the west so easily glosses over colonization, which is integral to all three of those other things. The interesting thing though that they miss completely, is that in the last 10 years the percentage of people living middle class lives have nearly doubled in a lot of African countries, which is a huge achievement.
- Retric 11y ago
  "Gloss over colonization" Don't whitewash history, the wars where generally smaller scale, but pre colonization there was plenty of war, famine, and poverty.
  - cup 11y ago
    Sure, just like there was plenty of war, famine and poverty around the world but lets not "whitewash" history by suggesting what we see in Africa and other countries aren't a direct effect of European colonization.
    - a3voices 11y ago
      So you're saying Africa would've been better off without colonization? I bet life would be much worse in Africa if it was never colonized. Did you know the homicide rate was 10-20% in prehistoric societies, and the life expectancy was only 30-40 years or so?
      - cup 11y ago
        Are you suggesting without colonisation that Africans would still be living in a per-historic society?
        a3voices 11y ago
        Yes, much closer to one. Somewhere on a scale between what it currently is and a prehistoric society. Why do you think it wouldn't be? Africans wouldn't just magically absorb Western culture without exposure. I'm not sure if 1% were even aware of Western civilization, trade, and such until colonization happened. Do you think Africans would learn how to read and write if the Europeans didn't alter things?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Geekette 11y ago
The only reliable factoid mentioned is that good data on demographics of African are hard to come by. Thus, info like economic projections for the continent as released by various organizations are equally shifty.
tim333 11y ago
Africa's coming along but from a low base. See Hans Rosling's 2015 visualisation. Asia in red, Africa blue, Europe yellow: https://youtu.be/_JhD37gSNVU?t=55s https://youtu.be/_JhD37gSNVU?t=55s

62 points by luu 11y ago

The problem is that the dominant model of development today seems to involve increased wealth inequality rather than the creation of a stable middle class. For example, China's development has involved considerable wealth inequality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_China

jvm 11y ago
Most income inequality (taken on a worldwide basis) is between country, not within country. Overall global income inequality is dropping considerably, with China playing a large part. > https://twitter.com/bill_easterly/status/621684418558734337 https://twitter.com/bill_easterly/status/621684418558734337 > https://twitter.com/bill_easterly/status/654709684985688064 https://twitter.com/bill_easterly/status/654709684985688064
- joe_the_user 11y ago
  World scale inequality seems like a bit of a canard. If inequality between nations drops, a measure of inequality on a world scale could drop while inequality within each particular nation increases. China or Africa's development means the average very poor person is closer to the average Westerner, dropping total inequality. But that doesn't stop recent models of development from involving considerable inequality and indeed a model of inequality (just as inequality has increased within the US). Moreover, it's the inequality within each area that one would expect to have the harmful or beneficial effects on democracy, civil society and so-forth. Edit: Of course it is hard to reply to a link to a tweet of a bit map of a graph with resolution too poor to read the references of, hence my general comment.
  - jvm 11y ago
    I think you are right that there are still disadvantages to within-country inequality, but I strongly disagree with the dismissal you seem to be making of the massive reduction in country-level inequality and accompanying massive reduction of extreme poverty, which has plunged from ~40% of the world population in the 1980's to <20% now. > it's the inequality within each area that one would expect to have the harmful or beneficial effects on democracy, civil society and so-forth. You seem to be implying that extreme poverty does not also cause adverse effects on democracy, civil society, and so forth. My guess is that having massive populations of people living at or below subsistence is also harmful to democracy and civil society. If you look at the kind of problems they have in relatively equal [1] Sudan (mass malnutrition, militias literally raping and pillaging) to relatively unequal [1] United States (police violence, poor health care provision), I hope we can acknowledge the problems in the US without denying that they are orders of magnitude less severe. The difference is in the amount of absolute extreme poverty, not the inequality. BTW if you click on the images in the links you can access the high res versions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...
  - meric 11y ago
    I agree. The vast majority of people in the world have access to housing, water, internet, toilet, transportation. Yes, they might have their own motorbike instead of car, but really, the qualitative difference is not the 10x as suggested by the difference in prices of those two things. Sure, the sidewalk sometimes is very rough, and the drainage on the side of the road carry heavily polluted water, and the outside of houses might not be painted. Inside most homes around the world, however, are quite pleasant. Give this house a fresh coat of paint, and it'd fit just fine as a home in a developed country: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/05/article-1255622-08911939000005DC-998_468x313.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/05/article-1255622-08...

BorisMelnik 11y ago

Isn't this kind of exactly the same sentiment as "the middle class is disappearing in the USA?"

johansch 11y ago
Taken to an extreme.
RyanZAG 11y ago
It's kind of the opposite. Scroll down to the chart showing 2004 vs 2014. The middle class is actually growing very rapidly - far more rapidly than the growth of the middle class during industrial revolution Europe, and in contrast to the shrinking middle class of USA today. Anybody complaining it is 'too slow' is living in a dream world without realizing that moving classes takes generations of effort and enormous culture shifts. Something as simple from using a hole in the ground as a toilet to the huge infrastructure of piped plumbing from dams is an enormous change in culture. Take the monthly costs of such infrastructure which must be paid and enforced across a population that previously did not have those kinds of burdens for a quick spot check on culture.
- astazangasta 11y ago
  >moving classes takes generations of effort and enormous culture shifts. This is wrong. I recommend reading Ha-Joon Chang,a wonderful heterodox economist who is fond of pointing out that his native South Korea went from the development status of Madagascar to one of the largest economies in the world in a scant 50 years. This doesn't take forever.
  - DevX101 11y ago
    Any books you'd recommend from him/her?
    - astazangasta 11y ago
      I liked 'Bad Samaritans', which is attacking conventional wisdom on trade liberalisation. He also had a great series of food columns in the FT this summer - discussions that began with carrots and segued into Dutch trade wars, worth a read.

tertius 11y ago

I'd add that rich is relative. I'm South African and I generally agree with this assertion but poor is defined as something that is really non-existant in the U.S. And minimum wage here, is really the bottom end of what would be considered middle class. So the title is not very informative to someone not used to the context. * I'm South African living in Houston, TX.

eveningcoffee 11y ago
* I'm South African living in Houston, TX. * I am sorry, what is "here" then here?
- mc32 11y ago
  I think it's the article's point of reference.
- tertius 11y ago
  I see that it was confusing. > And minimum wage here, is really the bottom end of what would be considered middle class. Should be: > And minimum wage here, is really the bottom end of what would be considered middle class there.
Retric 11y ago
Minimum wage does not qualify for middle class. The idea is it's what's between the rich and the working class. So ~50% to ~95-99% income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_middle_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_middle_class So, ~50k to ~170k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence_in_the_United_States Programmers generally qualify but a dental assistants @35k generally does not.
- tertius 11y ago
  I'm sorry, my wording was confusing and not clear enough. > And minimum wage here, is really the bottom end of what would be considered middle class. Should be: > And minimum wage here, is really the bottom end of what would be considered middle class there.

cup 11y ago

"On a continent once synonymous with war, famine and poverty," I always find it interesting how the west so easily glosses over colonization, which is integral to all three of those other things. The interesting thing though that they miss completely, is that in the last 10 years the percentage of people living middle class lives have nearly doubled in a lot of African countries, which is a huge achievement.

Retric 11y ago
"Gloss over colonization" Don't whitewash history, the wars where generally smaller scale, but pre colonization there was plenty of war, famine, and poverty.
- cup 11y ago
  Sure, just like there was plenty of war, famine and poverty around the world but lets not "whitewash" history by suggesting what we see in Africa and other countries aren't a direct effect of European colonization.
  - a3voices 11y ago
    So you're saying Africa would've been better off without colonization? I bet life would be much worse in Africa if it was never colonized. Did you know the homicide rate was 10-20% in prehistoric societies, and the life expectancy was only 30-40 years or so?
    - cup 11y ago
      Are you suggesting without colonisation that Africans would still be living in a per-historic society?
      - a3voices 11y ago
        Yes, much closer to one. Somewhere on a scale between what it currently is and a prehistoric society. Why do you think it wouldn't be? Africans wouldn't just magically absorb Western culture without exposure. I'm not sure if 1% were even aware of Western civilization, trade, and such until colonization happened. Do you think Africans would learn how to read and write if the Europeans didn't alter things?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Geekette 11y ago

The only reliable factoid mentioned is that good data on demographics of African are hard to come by. Thus, info like economic projections for the continent as released by various organizations are equally shifty.

tim333 11y ago

Africa's coming along but from a low base. See Hans Rosling's 2015 visualisation. Asia in red, Africa blue, Europe yellow: https://youtu.be/_JhD37gSNVU?t=55s https://youtu.be/_JhD37gSNVU?t=55s