6 ms·

I've never understood how the Asian countries that don't really have that many natural resources[1], could out pace American manufacturing. Do we seriously ship

by esaym 11y ago

I've never understood how the Asian countries that don't really have that many natural resources[1], could out pace American manufacturing. Do we seriously ship scrap metal over there to them just to have it shipped back to us in a different form?? Sounds like a horrible waste of resources (fuel, oil, ect)... [1]http://en.people.cn/92824/92845/92876/6442551.html http://en.people.cn/92824/92845/92876/6442551.html

ska 11y ago
Shipping is very cheap. Smelting (aluminum) is expensive. I'm going to guess that most scrap is recycled locally, but shipping bauxite to China and buying back bulk aluminum is cheaper than doing it locally. Is recycling done this way also?
- Qworg 11y ago
  I think you're right about local recycling - it only takes about 5% of the energy to recycle vs. direct from bauxite. Here's a list of recycled smelting operations: http://www.lightmetalage.com/producers.php http://www.lightmetalage.com/producers.php
- maxerickson 11y ago
  The reports here break out the numbers some: http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/ http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/ Recycling is ~75% of imports. About half of recycling is from manufacturing waste, about half from recycled aluminum products. The major source of US imports is Canada, in 2013 they supplied 64% of US imports (China was 4%, behind both Russia and the UAE at 5%). It'd be interesting to see if China is exporting raw aluminum or finished products.
wil421 11y ago
If it's cheaper to out source it American companies will. Interestingly they do this to recycle paper because its really toxic to do so. Never understood why, pine trees are a fairly renewable resource. In Georgia we have plenty of pine trees that grow pretty fast and a forest can be replanted fairly easily.
- tomtang0514 11y ago
  Americans simply use too much paper... I seldomly see paper wrapped straws or more than one roll of toilet paper per cell in any other countries I've been to. Even mcdonald in other country don't use that much paper as we do here.
  - wil421 11y ago
    Right, but I think using paper instead of plastic wrappers is more environmentally friendly. Plastic is made from byproducts of oil refining. Its really nasty stuff that doesnt biodegrade as easy as paper. Paper is renewable and it also helps the environment by taking out CO2 (trees). Fun fact, Ted's Montana Grill actually uses paper straws as a conservation effort IIRC. They can get soggy but it is something unique I haven't seen before. Also wrapping straws in something is a health code issue. Some places even in the US do no require it to be done.
    - tomtang0514 11y ago
      I agree paper wrap is better than plastic wrap, and sadly I'm seeing more and more plastic wrapped ones today. But most mcdonald in asia and africa have a straw box like this one. http://www.wesellcoffee.com/media/22711%20STRAW%20DISP.jpg http://www.wesellcoffee.com/media/22711%20STRAW%20DISP.jpg So it's not wrapped at all. Regarding the health issue you mentioned, if people don't mind drinking from glass in a restaurant, why do they mind drinking from unwrapped straws? I believe unwrapped straws in a container is at least as clean as glass from any bar.
ars 11y ago
They don't actually outpace American manufacturing. America focuses on low volume extremely high priced manufacturing, China and other countries focus on high volume low cost (i.e. low skill) manufacturing. For the most part this is because wages are higher in the US, so you need to make more expensive stuff to make it worth it.
- DominikR 11y ago
  I'm not so sure about the high volume low cost part, considering that iPhones, Macs and all kinds of modern consumer electronics we love to use are imported from China.
  - ctime 11y ago
    I'm sure about the high volume low cost part, even for iPhones, Macs and all kinds of modern consumer electronics. The Chinese companies assembling these are making pennies on the dollar compared to what the companies that design and market them sell them for. For example, it may cost Apple around $30 to manufacture and build an iPhone in China [1] http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/22/the-iphone-manufacturing-cost-structure/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/22/the-iphone-manufacturing-co...
tim333 11y ago
Mostly seems to be Chinese govt policy "Government subsidies are taking as much as $200 per tonne off the cost of production. Chinese Governments subsidize the local industry in order to protect jobs, and to maintain a level of “social order”. http://blog.alcircle.com/2013/03/04/the-secret-of-chinese-aluminum-industry/ http://blog.alcircle.com/2013/03/04/the-secret-of-chinese-al...
- timtadh 11y ago
  That article explains the original post about alcoa downsizing than any of the other posts. Thanks!
ams6110 11y ago
Very few environmental regulations, and the ones they have are ignored or officials bribed to look the other way.
jimrandomh 11y ago
China's population is ~4x that of the United States, so all else equal they'd have ~4x as much of everything, manufacturing included. In reality, the US has slightly more total manufacturing output than China does, because of its higher level of economic development. The strong trade ties between the two countries mean that Chinese firms will sometimes outcompete American firms, and vise versa; we just don't hear much about it when it's the other way around.
- maerF0x0 11y ago
  any examples of it being the other way around ?
  - gvb 11y ago
    I have not seen a Chinese automobile in the US. They "outcompete" other auto manufacturers in China, but not the rest of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacture... Beijing Automotive Industry is interesting. They have been trying to buy their way into (more competitive) western technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Automotive_Industry_Holding_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Automotive_Industry_Ho... After several unsuccessful attempts to buy struggling European automakers in 2009, such as Saab, Volvo, and Opel as well as technology from the American Chrysler, BAIC fulfilled its aim of obtaining valuable Western technology that same year purchasing technology from a former unit of General Motors, Saab Automobile. This allows it to produce older Saab models (but not brand them as Saabs[citation needed]) for sale in China.
    - maerF0x0 11y ago
      I've heard (anecdote) that the chinese love VWs. The story goes is because they didnt abandon them during the communist revolution .
  - lmm 11y ago
    Amusingly most chopsticks used in China are made in the US, though that's more about having the right climate to grow good wood than about manufacturing capability.
api_or_ipa 11y ago
1 mostly aluminium Boeing 747 is worth the same as 200,000 tons of processed aluminium. The US imbues large technological value to an otherwise raw product. You pay for their knowledge more than the raw product. The benefit the US enjoys is the marginal cost of another plane is much lower than the marginal cost of producing raw aluminium.
- tw04 11y ago
  Which only works if you can protect your trade secrets. China's got that covered too.
  - adventured 11y ago
    Can you provide examples of it actually helping China? Their supposed copycat jet fighter has gone nowhere so far. There's zero evidence they have the ability to bring it to production and deployment. There are several countries that could build a 737 clone. Cisco continues to dominate routers, despite China's attempt to steal from them and clone their products. Windows, iOS, Android dominate operating systems, despite China's continued attempt to build a serious home-grown operating system. Russia has been stealing US industrial and military secrets for 60 years. It also didn't do much for them. There is a lot more to it than just stealing trade secrets - that's the easy part.
    - bzz01 11y ago
      > Cisco continues to dominate routers, despite China's attempt to steal from them and clone their products. Huawei revenues are already on par with Cisco, at least that one worked out pretty well.
  - dredmorbius 11y ago
    There's a fair amount of accrued institutional knowledge in many technological products. It's not all written down in books. To what extent I'm not entirely certain.
- digikata 11y ago
dredmorbius 11y ago
Shipping, as noted, is insanely cheap. Low labour costs help. I've begun strongly suspecting that a major element of what China's been exporting, however, has been its environment as dumping ground. Much of the growth of China's economy has come since 2000, and the environmental toil's been tremendous. Where earlier extractive-resource countries have raped their mineral resources, what China's done is to rape its atmosphere, waters, land, etc. Coal-fired electricity, heat, and industry, rare earths extraction (the "rare" has more to do with their concentration in ores -- massive amounts of overburden must e processed), chemical contamination, etc. Makes you wonder how long they can keep this going.
- AJ007 11y ago
  James Lovelock described what humans do as a system of producing an enormous amount of garbage to create artifacts (many of which are ultimately garbage too.) There is a lot of applause given to fiat currencies, but when prices are continuously appreciating it becomes extremely difficult to determine if the underlying factors are from sustainable demand (as opposed to software and information tech where we have strong deflationary pressure.) You can borrow money, and you just need to earn enough to cover the debt. You can also just borrow more.
  - dredmorbius 11y ago
    The creating-crap thing, I suspect, intersects with issues over equality and minimum income. There are people who, quite literally, would do more good to the world not working than working. Especially those producing products or services which are net negative. I started noting this with the growth in products that seemed aimed entirely being disposable, and retailer's view of them only as vehicles for moving dollars: retail exists less to move goods than to move money through the economy. Work of many sorts exists as much as a workfactor activity for reallocating wealth. Other fair means of allocating both productive activity and income could avoid much of this.

by esaym 11y ago

ska 11y ago

Shipping is very cheap. Smelting (aluminum) is expensive. I'm going to guess that most scrap is recycled locally, but shipping bauxite to China and buying back bulk aluminum is cheaper than doing it locally. Is recycling done this way also?

Qworg 11y ago
I think you're right about local recycling - it only takes about 5% of the energy to recycle vs. direct from bauxite. Here's a list of recycled smelting operations: http://www.lightmetalage.com/producers.php http://www.lightmetalage.com/producers.php
maxerickson 11y ago
The reports here break out the numbers some: http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/ http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/ Recycling is ~75% of imports. About half of recycling is from manufacturing waste, about half from recycled aluminum products. The major source of US imports is Canada, in 2013 they supplied 64% of US imports (China was 4%, behind both Russia and the UAE at 5%). It'd be interesting to see if China is exporting raw aluminum or finished products.

wil421 11y ago

If it's cheaper to out source it American companies will. Interestingly they do this to recycle paper because its really toxic to do so. Never understood why, pine trees are a fairly renewable resource. In Georgia we have plenty of pine trees that grow pretty fast and a forest can be replanted fairly easily.

tomtang0514 11y ago
Americans simply use too much paper... I seldomly see paper wrapped straws or more than one roll of toilet paper per cell in any other countries I've been to. Even mcdonald in other country don't use that much paper as we do here.
- wil421 11y ago
  Right, but I think using paper instead of plastic wrappers is more environmentally friendly. Plastic is made from byproducts of oil refining. Its really nasty stuff that doesnt biodegrade as easy as paper. Paper is renewable and it also helps the environment by taking out CO2 (trees). Fun fact, Ted's Montana Grill actually uses paper straws as a conservation effort IIRC. They can get soggy but it is something unique I haven't seen before. Also wrapping straws in something is a health code issue. Some places even in the US do no require it to be done.
  - tomtang0514 11y ago
    I agree paper wrap is better than plastic wrap, and sadly I'm seeing more and more plastic wrapped ones today. But most mcdonald in asia and africa have a straw box like this one. http://www.wesellcoffee.com/media/22711%20STRAW%20DISP.jpg http://www.wesellcoffee.com/media/22711%20STRAW%20DISP.jpg So it's not wrapped at all. Regarding the health issue you mentioned, if people don't mind drinking from glass in a restaurant, why do they mind drinking from unwrapped straws? I believe unwrapped straws in a container is at least as clean as glass from any bar.

ars 11y ago

They don't actually outpace American manufacturing. America focuses on low volume extremely high priced manufacturing, China and other countries focus on high volume low cost (i.e. low skill) manufacturing. For the most part this is because wages are higher in the US, so you need to make more expensive stuff to make it worth it.

DominikR 11y ago
I'm not so sure about the high volume low cost part, considering that iPhones, Macs and all kinds of modern consumer electronics we love to use are imported from China.
- ctime 11y ago
  I'm sure about the high volume low cost part, even for iPhones, Macs and all kinds of modern consumer electronics. The Chinese companies assembling these are making pennies on the dollar compared to what the companies that design and market them sell them for. For example, it may cost Apple around $30 to manufacture and build an iPhone in China [1] http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/22/the-iphone-manufacturing-cost-structure/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/22/the-iphone-manufacturing-co...

tim333 11y ago

Mostly seems to be Chinese govt policy "Government subsidies are taking as much as $200 per tonne off the cost of production. Chinese Governments subsidize the local industry in order to protect jobs, and to maintain a level of “social order”. http://blog.alcircle.com/2013/03/04/the-secret-of-chinese-aluminum-industry/ http://blog.alcircle.com/2013/03/04/the-secret-of-chinese-al...

timtadh 11y ago
That article explains the original post about alcoa downsizing than any of the other posts. Thanks!

ams6110 11y ago

Very few environmental regulations, and the ones they have are ignored or officials bribed to look the other way.

jimrandomh 11y ago

China's population is ~4x that of the United States, so all else equal they'd have ~4x as much of everything, manufacturing included. In reality, the US has slightly more total manufacturing output than China does, because of its higher level of economic development. The strong trade ties between the two countries mean that Chinese firms will sometimes outcompete American firms, and vise versa; we just don't hear much about it when it's the other way around.

maerF0x0 11y ago
any examples of it being the other way around ?
- gvb 11y ago
  I have not seen a Chinese automobile in the US. They "outcompete" other auto manufacturers in China, but not the rest of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacture... Beijing Automotive Industry is interesting. They have been trying to buy their way into (more competitive) western technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Automotive_Industry_Holding_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Automotive_Industry_Ho... After several unsuccessful attempts to buy struggling European automakers in 2009, such as Saab, Volvo, and Opel as well as technology from the American Chrysler, BAIC fulfilled its aim of obtaining valuable Western technology that same year purchasing technology from a former unit of General Motors, Saab Automobile. This allows it to produce older Saab models (but not brand them as Saabs[citation needed]) for sale in China.
  - maerF0x0 11y ago
    I've heard (anecdote) that the chinese love VWs. The story goes is because they didnt abandon them during the communist revolution .
- lmm 11y ago
  Amusingly most chopsticks used in China are made in the US, though that's more about having the right climate to grow good wood than about manufacturing capability.

api_or_ipa 11y ago

1 mostly aluminium Boeing 747 is worth the same as 200,000 tons of processed aluminium. The US imbues large technological value to an otherwise raw product. You pay for their knowledge more than the raw product. The benefit the US enjoys is the marginal cost of another plane is much lower than the marginal cost of producing raw aluminium.

tw04 11y ago
Which only works if you can protect your trade secrets. China's got that covered too.
- adventured 11y ago
  Can you provide examples of it actually helping China? Their supposed copycat jet fighter has gone nowhere so far. There's zero evidence they have the ability to bring it to production and deployment. There are several countries that could build a 737 clone. Cisco continues to dominate routers, despite China's attempt to steal from them and clone their products. Windows, iOS, Android dominate operating systems, despite China's continued attempt to build a serious home-grown operating system. Russia has been stealing US industrial and military secrets for 60 years. It also didn't do much for them. There is a lot more to it than just stealing trade secrets - that's the easy part.
  - bzz01 11y ago
    > Cisco continues to dominate routers, despite China's attempt to steal from them and clone their products. Huawei revenues are already on par with Cisco, at least that one worked out pretty well.
- dredmorbius 11y ago
  There's a fair amount of accrued institutional knowledge in many technological products. It's not all written down in books. To what extent I'm not entirely certain.
digikata 11y ago

dredmorbius 11y ago

Shipping, as noted, is insanely cheap. Low labour costs help. I've begun strongly suspecting that a major element of what China's been exporting, however, has been its environment as dumping ground. Much of the growth of China's economy has come since 2000, and the environmental toil's been tremendous. Where earlier extractive-resource countries have raped their mineral resources, what China's done is to rape its atmosphere, waters, land, etc. Coal-fired electricity, heat, and industry, rare earths extraction (the "rare" has more to do with their concentration in ores -- massive amounts of overburden must e processed), chemical contamination, etc. Makes you wonder how long they can keep this going.

AJ007 11y ago
James Lovelock described what humans do as a system of producing an enormous amount of garbage to create artifacts (many of which are ultimately garbage too.) There is a lot of applause given to fiat currencies, but when prices are continuously appreciating it becomes extremely difficult to determine if the underlying factors are from sustainable demand (as opposed to software and information tech where we have strong deflationary pressure.) You can borrow money, and you just need to earn enough to cover the debt. You can also just borrow more.
- dredmorbius 11y ago
  The creating-crap thing, I suspect, intersects with issues over equality and minimum income. There are people who, quite literally, would do more good to the world not working than working. Especially those producing products or services which are net negative. I started noting this with the growth in products that seemed aimed entirely being disposable, and retailer's view of them only as vehicles for moving dollars: retail exists less to move goods than to move money through the economy. Work of many sorts exists as much as a workfactor activity for reallocating wealth. Other fair means of allocating both productive activity and income could avoid much of this.