11 ms·

Abuse is indefensible

83 points by AndrewDucker 11y ago

unfamiliar 11y ago
I've read a few of Linus' rants and been on the fence, but this one does seem to have crossed some sort of line into being unnecessarily abusive, and to add to that, unclear communication. The rewritten version really does emphasise a much better approach. Linus's rant doesn't read like it was written by... a stable person. I was in full agreement with the article up until this: >Of the many things I could say about this, I will say just one: sadly, I am certain the reaction to this text would be entirely different were it written by a woman. What the... where on earth did this come from? Completely irrelevant and not true in my opinion. This issue is about whether it post was abusive, the gender of the poster makes no difference. I'm pretty sure that female Linus (assuming female Linus had accomplished everything real Linus has over her life) would have had a bunch of loyal followers that defended her no matter what she said, and a bunch of people who thought she was out of line. Does the gender issue really have to be shoehorned into every story?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- srpablo 11y ago
  > Completely irrelevant and not true in my opinion. Hardly, when talking about brash/abusive behavior in the context of an industry where women are underrepresented, I think it's plenty fine to mention that there might be a connection to be made. > the gender of the poster makes no difference Eh, I don't agree. It's well-observed in social sciences that men are given more leeway to be abusive than women are; one example is how often words like "abrasive" or "bossy" come up in performance reports: http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/ http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias... Or just look at our popular media: how many male antiheroes on TV have enough audience to support them vs. women antiheroes? For every Walter White or Doctor House or Tony Soprano, how many unlikeable women are there? Roxane Gay writes about this pretty well. http://www.buzzfeed.com/roxanegay/not-here-to-make-friends-unlikable#.ineD9MA1A2 http://www.buzzfeed.com/roxanegay/not-here-to-make-friends-u... > Does the gender issue really have to be shoehorned into every story? Per above, I don't think it's "shoehorned." And I think it's fine if we talk about it more than we currently do, because there's plenty to suggest we don't talk about it enough or are insufficiently introspective about it.
  - lagadu 11y ago
    It's shoehorned because it's inserting a completely unrelated assertion despite nothing in the slightest pointing to it at all on the rest of the article. It would have made just about as much sense if they'd written "This would be entirely different had it been written by a black person". But they just had to make it political and race just isn't a hot enough topic in the tech world so they didn't go for that. It's a pathetic attention grab that sullies an otherwise valid critique.
  - pervycreeper 11y ago
    >Eh, I don't agree. It's well-observed in social sciences that men are given more leeway to be abusive than women are; one example is how often words like "abrasive" or "bossy" come up in performance reports: http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias.. http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias.... Have they ensured that they are using identical behaviors in this comparison?
  - mbrock 11y ago
    If women are socially punished for being abrasive or bossy, you could consider THAT to be a problem. I might consider it a basic human right to use curse words, get angry, and come off as abrasive, and in fact I truly do. Somewhat relatedly, the supposition some people have that "women" need to be especially protected from teh scary curse words pisses me off. THAT is a gendered prejudice based on Victorian morality or something.
    - chasing 11y ago
      > I might consider it a basic human right to use curse words, get angry, and come off as abrasive, and in fact I truly do. This is a common error, but you're mixing up the idea that the government shouldn't be allowed to penalize you for your free speech and the idea that no one at all should be able to react to you for using curse words, getting angry, or coming off as abrasive. If I think you're an asshole, I'm perfectly within my rights to not hire you, not befriend you, make fun of you to other people, not invite you out on camping trips, "accidentally" give you smaller slices of birthday cake at company parties, write internet comments calling you a doofus, etc.
- eis 11y ago
  I had the same feeling about the last bit of the article. Drama for no reason. I would be glad if the tech community focused more on tech than on shitstorms. Some people are just too sensitive. If you don't like how Linus behaves, then don't deal with him. Noone forces you. But why post an article on your blog which is associated with Mozilla including a gist of collected swear words? At least Linus didn't engage in some meta-drama nonsense. unfamiliar: I don't agree though that this makes Linus a unstable person. In fact I'd say if people can't swallow some swear words, then they are in turn not emotionally strong enough.
  - SolaceQuantum 11y ago
    There's no reason that anyone would need to be emotionally strong enough that in a company with adults in which the focus is working together on technology, they should expect to get sworn at a few times as an acceptable interaction with their peers.
    - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
      In normal interactions actually no - there are a few very rare situations where it might be appropriate to use expletives for emphasis. Day to day project work is not one of those.
    - eis 11y ago
      They don't have to expect it or even accept it. They can, if they want to. But they could as well just tell Linus he's a jerk. Or filter out the technical aspects of his post and ignore the rest. Or stop working with Linus. But there is no reason to create a wide discussion around this, imho.
  - enneff 11y ago
    > If you don't like how Linus behaves, then don't deal with him. Noone forces you. Linus' status in the Open Source community makes him a role model for some people (whether he likes it or not; I suspect he doesn't), and so people imitate him. It's much less palatable coming from someone with less credibility and experience.
- dwb 11y ago
  Shanley Kane criticised Linus and got her and her family's addresses posted, death threats, rape threats, and other horrific abuse. If you think gender isn't an issue, you haven't educated yourself well enough.
  - vox_mollis 11y ago
    This comment is very amusing in the context of the article. Shanley Kane uses abusive language, at minimum, two orders of magnitude more often than Linus does.
    - dwb 11y ago
      Abuse requires a power imbalance in favour of the abuser. That was not the case for Shanley's criticism.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        I think I know what you're trying to say, but it probably isn't true that abuse requires a power imbalance, unless "willingness to abuse" is itself a form of power, in which case the word doesn't mean much anymore.
- sarciszewski 11y ago
  > Does the gender issue really have to be shoehorned into every story? There are some people who believe it needs to be brought up more, even in places where it's off topic, because raising awareness is easy and historically it has been an effective strategy to move the needle on public perception. Linus isn't celebrated because Linus is a famous programmer notorious for being quick to reach for the poison pen, Linus is being celebrated because he's a man, or so the story goes. I agree that gender isn't relevant to Linus's behavior. The door swings both ways on abuse, after all. Humans of all gender identities are equally capable of being terrible to humans of any gender identity. But if the author's gripe is with the public reaction to it, it sort of makes sense why they would bring gender up. Namely: strategic political reasons.
- spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
  I have noticed that Nordic non native English people often have very good spoken English but have a poor grasp of the unwritten rules concerning "engineering language"
  - toyg 11y ago
    It's not just Nordics. Non-native speakers tend to see swearwords as funny (aren't they the first thing one learns, after all? Even as a kid!), I'm guilty of that myself. For English in particular, this is reinforced by abundant film material: the cooler the movie, the highest the chance to have it packed with swearwords, because it makes it sexier for native-speakers. This results in non-natives (who will likely consume this sort of exceptional material but not necessarily the more average stuff) assuming "harsh" language is more acceptable than it might actually be in practice. Some productions' appeal is almost entirely based on swearwords, e.g. In The Loop.
    - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
      Yes taking Malcolm Tucker as a guide to appropriate English usage is not a good idea.
- GPGPU 11y ago
  > Does the gender issue really have to be shoehorned into every story? Exactly right. I read that like and I lost interest in reading any more from this guy. Now he's trying to make a point about "sexism" by pulling a strawman out of thin air
- JustSomeNobody 11y ago
  My wife and I are both software engineers, so I'm particularly sensitive to this topic. However, this even through me for a loop as to why it was mentioned.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Me too. Like, I think I agree with this post? But I'm not sure it's the best illustration of the phenomenon, or even a good one.
    - JustSomeNobody 11y ago
      Yeah, it's just... awkward.
- hoopd 11y ago
  > What the... where on earth did this come from? It comes from the same place all flamebait comes from: they're picking a fight.
- anonbanker 11y ago
  If you've been paying attention to Mozilla post-Eich, it's overrun with social justice warriors now. the JWZ's are long gone, since replaced by the Apparatchik[0]. Thankfully, the Servo side of things still has competent engineers. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparatchik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparatchik
metaos 11y ago
From the team that hounded out Brendan Eich... May I quote the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19: "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression: this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
- jimbokun 11y ago
  And when you exercise that right, other people have the right to point out when you are being a jerk.
- ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
  Freedom of opinion and expression also means people can point you out as being an abusive asshole. Goes both ways.
- chasing 11y ago
  You misunderstand this passage. It doesn't mean you can open your mouth and say any stupid thing and no one can do anything about it. You can get fired. You can get your account removed from Twitter. People can complain about you on the internet. Oh, and don't paint Brendan Eich as some kind of victim of the free speech police. He actively participated in trying to deny a large class of Americans the basic freedom to marry whom they wanted. And people decided they didn't want someone with that record running Mozilla.
- mikeash 11y ago
  What's your point in posting that quote? Sure, Linus and Eich can say what they want, and others can say what they want about that.
- Kristine1975 11y ago
  Brendan Eich stepping down as Mozilla's CEO was not due to speech: >His appointment sparked controversy over a $1,000 political donation Eich had made in 2008 to the successful campaign for California Proposition 8, which sought to establish that, "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."
jimbokun 11y ago
Can anyone defend Linus' version as better communication than Eisenberg's?
- x1024 11y ago
  Nobody will try to pull that shit again for quite some time. The "Constructive" version will be handwaved by submitting the same code again and giving literally any deflecting excuse like "You're just afraid of using new technology like this function.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it and stop there lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove lid again and that is well but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore." The lesson a lot of people are going to learn from this is, "Don't submit any code to Linux." Not submitting code like this is merely going to be a small side effect. Especially since Linus doesn't explain his reasoning so there's no real way to know if the next chunk of code is going to displease him or not.
    - marrs 11y ago
      The lesson a lot of people are going to learn from this is, "Don't submit any code to Linux." That's true, but not really a problem. Linux is one of the most popular open source projects out there.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        It's still a problem if you want to keep it that way, or if you value quality over quantity.
        marrs 11y ago
        But the shouting is intended to maintain quality. I appreciate that you doubt it does this. You could be right, but the article doesn't convince me of this. It seems to have a different agenda anyway, that the shouting is unacceptable regardless of any benefit. I'm not sure I go along with that either.
nabla9 11y ago
I thought that finally I can see example of Linus being abusive. This was not it. Linus was attacking the work and ideas and cursing them. He was not attacking the person who wrote the code. Cursing is not abusive by itself. Cursing is emotional emphasis. I would not want to work in a environment where strong emotional language used to criticize your work is considered abusive. If conflict over ideas and work does not make your blood flow, you don't care.
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  But do you not feel offended when you are the one who came up with the idea?
  - x1024 11y ago
    They... should be offended? Because it was a bad idea that ruins the Linux Kernel. Kernel development isn't for everyone.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Can you (the person who wrote that this code would "ruin" the Linux kernel) explain in as much detail as you can how it would have ruined the Linux kernel? I'm curious about how much people take what Linus says at face value.
      - x1024 11y ago
        Code being safe or unsafe is a pretty objective metric of quality, methinks.
        tptacek 11y ago
        I agree. Can you explain how this particular code is "safe" or "unsafe"? Again: I'm curious as to how much of what Linus says is taken at face value on HN. I'm even more interested now, because the fulcrum of Linus's argument isn't safety.
colah3 11y ago
When I was 17, I was super enthusiastic about Linux. I read a bunch of stuff about kernel development. Linus' attitude was very well known and presented as an amusing thing. Glorified even. I remember reading some of his emails with a great deal of schadenfreude. Now I'm really glad I never pursued that. I work in a field where all the leading figures are absurdly nice and respectful. Reading Linus' rant makes me appreciate that more.
- blowski 11y ago
  I think this is the underlying point. It's difficult to imagine that Linus's style of criticising attracts people to the industry, or indeed has any benefits at all. Conversely, it clearly puts off a lot of talented people from getting involved in Linux, and people use his style as justification for their own aggression. Outside of the open source movement, managers using this kind of language would be reprimanded and even fired, as it could make employees feel stressed and suffering from constructive dismissal. There is simply no need for being rude, or any kind of aggression in the workplace, and we should consider open source contributors as being in the workplace. Full stop.
  - mbrock 11y ago
    "Difficult to imagine" isn't evidence; it's just failure of imagination.
jug5 11y ago
"Abuse" ITT: Grown adults being little bitches. This is why the next generation will be so fragile they'll be unable to take any sort of criticism. God help us.
x1024 11y ago
Funny how the author "will moderate comments" and the only comments left are those who uncritically agree with them.
- gpvos 11y ago
  I see at least two comments that are critical of the author. And even if they were posted after you wrote this, how do you know he has deleted anything at all?
  - x1024 11y ago
    Give it an hour.
    - WolfeReader 11y ago
      Two hours later, they're still up. Time to admit you're wrong.
  - lagadu 11y ago
    Because it's a very divisive issue. Obviously I cannot guarantee that he had posts submitted that are critical of him but I would be very surprised that a fairly high-profile post (high enough to be featured on HN) had anything but nearly universal acclaim, given how it tends to polarize crowds.
- rylee 11y ago
  The comments which disagree with the author are patently abusive. I'm not entirely sure what your point here is supposed to be.
- nnethercote 11y ago
  I'm the author. You posted this comment 3 hours ago, before I deleted any comments. I've since deleted 3 or 4 of the worst ones, but left up ones that disagree without being overtly abusive.
shepik 11y ago
To be honest, Linus' rants is making a better point for me. I really feel his pain with overflow_usub, and i feel nothing when reading rewritten version.
- adamc 11y ago
  Why on earth do I need to "feel his pain" rather than just understand the issues at hand?
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    Because them some people think it's still ok to go with the broken code That's cultural differences 101 As a simple example: in Canada one might say "please do not feed the animals" in a Zoo. In some other places, for the message to have the same effect it must be as such: "It is expressly forbidden to feed the animals! Those being caught doing so will be expelled from the zoo!"
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Wait. "Broken" code?
      - raverbashing 11y ago
        From the original Linus email "And yes, you still could have overflow issues if the whole "hlen + xyz" expression overflows, but quite frankly, the "overflow_usub()" code had that too"
        tptacek 11y ago
        I'm afraid that doesn't clarify, because if the overflow_usub code is broken in that sense, then so is the code Linus is advocating for. Do you still think "broken" was the right word to use? Why?
        11y ago
adamc 11y ago
My take on it was that the non-abusive rewrite would be much more useful to the submitter, as it lays out the issues. The original just make Linus look like he's lost it. Glad I don't have to work with him.
ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
Why is it that people who support Linus' tirades and mention freedom of speech, etc get so incredibly hurt when others exercise their own freedom of speech and point out how abusive they are?
- thomashabets2 11y ago
  Because one is saying "what you are saying is wrong" and the other is saying "you should stop talking". That's a fundamental difference. If they get hurt (big "if"), then they are still not saying "and that means you are not allowed to talk". Are you seeing an inconsistency that I'm not?
  - rylee 11y ago
    No one's saying "you are not allowed to talk"; they're saying "you're a jerk if you decide to be pointedly abusive".
  - mikeash 11y ago
    OK, so "you should stop talking" is bad. How about, "you should stop talking about how that guy should stop talking"? Does that qualify too? Does every meta-level have the same problem, or is there a limit to how deep it goes?
  - zzalpha 11y ago
    Because one is saying "what you are saying is wrong" and the other is saying "you should stop talking". No, they're saying stop being a jerk. The only way that translates to "you should stop talking" is if said person is incapable of communicating whilst not being a jerk.
    - thomashabets2 11y ago
      I'm sorry if my illustration of why there is no hypocrisy was unclear. There may be jerk behaviour. I'm not saying there isn't. I did not mean to address that part at all. I'm saying there's no hypocrisy.
- 11y ago
luso_brazilian 11y ago
Previously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10492282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10492282 Wasn't it throughly discussed, dissected, analysed and debated in that very recent topic? The only new input this post beings is one more opinion among the many in that other HN post. Should it be considered a dupe?
- probdist 11y ago
  Yes. The link for this story adds less than the average comment on HN in the previous discussion to the overall conversation.
dwb 11y ago
Linus doesn't deserve to be in his position. Technical merit doesn't excuse being a horrible manager of people.
- sarciszewski 11y ago
  > Linus doesn't deserve to be in his position. What exactly do you mean by "in his position"? It's his project that he started years ago. His participation is likened to a monarchy, not a democracy. His further involvement is, therefore, not something that can be decided by an election. He doesn't deserve to be in his position with respect to a project he started and owns? That doesn't make any damn sense.
  - norea-armozel 11y ago
    Or maybe since he can't communicate without expletives or being overly coarse he can appoint someone else to the task of explaining the problems with code contributions?
    - sarciszewski 11y ago
      > Or maybe ... he can appoint someone else to the task of explaining the problems with code contributions? Of course he can, but that doesn't mean he will.
    - arguseyes 11y ago
      Or maybe he doesn't care about random cultural norms of some region on this planet ... and doesn't need to? Should he end all his messages with "Long live our dear leader Kim Jong-Un" to not offend North-Koreans?
      - norea-armozel 11y ago
        This is not equivalent to what I've stated, but thanks for strawmanning my point entirely. :)
mbrock 11y ago
A person wrote things that some other people find morally objectionable. Some other people think the thing that person wrote was not morally objectionable. Now someone "considers" the thing "indefensible" in their "personal opinion." Hacker News asks for intellectually stimulating topics; this one isn't.
zubspace 11y ago
Linus' version is intimidating. But that's why it is very effective. Case in point, we people on hacker news would have never even read his rant if the language was mild. So in some way it sticks better. You really DO NOT WANT to step on his toes again (and everyone else reading it, too), so in the end Linus' wins. Also, it's sad, but after so many years on the internet I don't consider his language to be abusive. It's aggressive yes, but clearly there went much though into it. If I'm honest, i find it kind of amusing. But maybe that's just me.
- jasonlotito 11y ago
  > You really DO NOT WANT to step on his toes again (and everyone else reading it, too), so in the end Linus' wins. And yet it keeps happening, frequent enough that it's something everyone knows about. If anything, he's not optimizing his own responses based on actual performance. He's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And he's not even being efficient with it. And, well, pretty sure he ruins his own performance by getting all enraged like that.
  - lagadu 11y ago
    > He's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And he's not even being efficient with it. It seems his results are just fine, why would he expect different results? I say this supported by the slightly arguable premise that the Linux kernel is a good example of a big success in software development.
- enneff 11y ago
  > You really DO NOT WANT to step on his toes again (and everyone else reading it, too), so in the end Linus' wins. But the person who wrote the code still argued with him. They're still making the same points that they would have made whether Linus were polite or not. Linus is the lead for the kernel project, so at the end of the day he wins regardless.
arguseyes 11y ago
If US-Americans could just for a moment stop trying to impose their "culture" on everyone else, that would be nice. Oh, right, they can't.
- delinka 11y ago
  Perhaps you could elaborate on how this is even relevant.
  - arguseyes 11y ago
    Most people on this planet can deal with opinions just fine. Case in point: the recipient of Linus' message. It only ever seems to be an issue for those entitled, self-absorbed Title IX crybabies for whom every opinion they disagree with is "literally rape". :-)
    - delinka 11y ago
      So you've stereotyped over three hundred million people to be "self-absorbed Title IX crybabies for whom every opinion they disagree with is 'literally rape'." I still don't see how this is relevant or contributes to the discussion.
      - arguseyes 11y ago
        > I still don't see how this is relevant or contributes to the discussion. This is something you should definitely work on then.
        delinka 11y ago
        Obviously, since your original post was downvoted to oblivion and flagged (neither of which I can do because you replied to me), I must be the one with the problem.
        arguseyes 11y ago
dudul 11y ago
"I am certain the reaction to this text would be entirely different were it written by a woman." Do we really need this garbage at the end of this post? How is it f-ing relevant? Linus' post was despicable in itself, everybody sees that except a few zealots. People are condemning it on this very thread, why do we need to throw this hypothetical gender bias BS? The rant was written by a man, it is needlessly rude and aggressive, and we all point it out. Period. A much more relevant thing to say would have been "I am certain the reaction to this text would be entirely different were it written by the guy who created Linux."
- ubdj2 11y ago
  I agree with the parent. This article adds that in, what for? Does it bring anything interesting to the discussion? Is it even explained? What a useless article.
forgotmypassw 11y ago
That's simply an expression to emphasise on current feelings and to add tone to the text. The rewritten text is clearly overly bland and on the edge of being apologic and doesn't reflect the anger and annoyance that Linus most likely felt at the time of writing the mail. It seems that people do not realize anymore that languages exist not only to pass the point along but also to express yourself (including emotions and feelings). Further more I think that thanks to Linus being "abusive" it makes contributors think twice before they submit code and making sure the code is mostly valid, which in turn, results in higher quality code landing in the codebase and decreases the risk of potential bugs. Does that make some people "scared" of contributing? Sure but that's a whole different story.
hoopd 11y ago
Abusive ranting isn't healthy communication but neither are personal attacks carefully disguised as constructive criticism. The post raises the question as to whether passive aggression or active aggression is the worse offender.
pervycreeper 11y ago
I am troubled by this obsession that these activists have with Torvalds. Could there be anything more minor than these complaints about tone? What harm does the existence of one software project which permits 'rants' do to others? Do those who claim to desire civility not understand that by hounding and inundating him and the community in general with the same talking points ad infinitum, they are themselves being uncivil? Not only by the unrelenting and hostile complaining, though. They have gone much further; Eric S. Raymond alleged yesterday that feminist groups have been repeatedly attempting to frame him for sexual assault! http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907 The OP post title is applicable to this situation in my opinion.
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  I'm not sure ESR is the best unbiased source on feminist groups. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond#i_am_slowly_going_crazy_one_two_three_four_five_six_switch http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond#i_am_slowly_goi... Rational Wiki certainly has its own biases, but they call out a lot of problematic items with links right back to the blog posts if you care to verify.
  - pervycreeper 11y ago
    I wasn't aware of that crankery, however, that does not discredit these straightforward allegations (argumentum ad hominem). I should add that this particular tactic is already being practiced on the bigwigs in the atheist community, so it's far from implausible.
    - ceejayoz 11y ago
      "A source I won't name says people I don't like are out to get me" from a known crank is not a "straightforward allegation".
    - comex 11y ago
      The allegations have absolutely no evidence behind them. In that case of course one should take into account their source's general credibility, or lack thereof. As for the atheist community, you will have to provide a source.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ckozlowski 11y ago
I thought Mr. Sowa's reply to be a very professional in defending his decisions to write it as he did, and still remain open and gracious in Linus' criticism. http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02919.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02919.html A worthwhile read in how to handle these situations.
igsmo 11y ago
i read this response by linus and it doesn't seem to be abusive to anyone, he's being critical of the code. who is this linus guy anyway? he sounds like a typical new yorker.
- such_a_casual 11y ago
  >who is this linus guy anyway? lol. just the guy who wrote linux and git. He's a fin btw.
  - igsmo 11y ago
    ah. the name did sound familiar. in the position he's in, he probably sees too much b.s. and shenanigans all day, and i imagine there are people and organizations out there, perhaps even govts that would love to see this little os project fail.
jsight 11y ago
"Nonetheless, I’ve seen multiple people defending and even celebrating it. (One outlet called it an “epic rant”.) " I don't think calling it an "epic rant" was celebrating it. http://www.itworld.com/article/3000564/linux/linus-goes-on-epic-rant-about-linux-kernel-code.html http://www.itworld.com/article/3000564/linux/linus-goes-on-e... "Linus loses it in an epic rant about kernel code." isn't exactly a complimentary line, IMO.
- msbarnett 11y ago
  I read the adjective "epic" as flattering/celebrating. In use its somewhat similar to "awesome" in North American English. I'm not clear if the author is from the UK or something, though.
ekianjo 11y ago
> I consider this kind of abuse indefensible. Nonetheless, I’ve seen multiple people defending and even celebrating it. And so what? You have never seen bullies in School ? Are you going to go in the streets and fight for moral righteousness in every corner ? Or are you just picking on Linus because it's an easy target with no controversy ? It's not like people who work with Linus don't know how he acts and interacts with others. I'd rather have someone who is blunt and direct than someone who smiles to your face and says shit in your back. At least you know where you stand.
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  > You have never seen bullies in School ? Of course there are bullies in school. That doesn't make it a good thing. Ideally, there wouldn't be bullies in school. And Linus isn't a child. > I'd rather have someone who is blunt and direct than someone who smiles to your face and says shit in your back. False dichotomy. There are plenty of people who smile to your face without having to say shit about you behind your back.
boost_ 11y ago
abuse? offensive? haha, what a first world problem, having my code called “shit” is abuse now.. i wonder what you would say about real world abuse. just grow a skin, Linus can say and do whatever he wants about his project (linux). don’t like it? don’t help it then. seriously kids these days get offended by everything..
such_a_casual 11y ago
This is hilarious. This has to be satirical. When did mail list rants become a social issue?
snomad 11y ago
I didn't find this rant abusive. Once worked for a law firm in a high stress industry - some of those lawyers were abusive, woah nelly. Also, have a brother who was in army, you can't even imagine the language of he and his friends. This is child's play and someone who ultimately cares about delivering a quality end product who was offended by someone taking away from that mission. And his point was right, the code was bad and shoehorned into a magical one size fits all solution. I'm most curious on the age / background of those in this thread who do find it hurtful and offensive.
- nabla9 11y ago
  >I'm most curious on the age / background of those in this thread who do find it hurtful and offensive. Me too. I feel that there is generational shift. For me, abusive means that someone picks you as a permanent target and treats you badly consistently. I'm completely fine with people calling me with names over some issues when it's clear that they are fighting against me over some specific issue. I'm allowed to use strong words as well. When the subjects changes, there is no hostility. That's how you know you are dealing with emotional person who is not abusing you. Picking up text fragments and analyzing one email for triggers that can be labeled as "abusive" seems so weird. I guess I feel that there is difference between "abusive language" and abusive and others don't see it.
  - marrs 11y ago
    I agree, and I think you're both right that it's generational.
- tptacek 11y ago
  "the code was bad and shoehorned into a magical one size fits all solution" Can you explain what you mean by this? "Not idiomatically appropriate for the kernel" and "bad" are very different concepts. There's an interesting phenomenon happening where people are retconning Linus's objection to this code into a value judgement on the code itself. I'm curious whether that's what you're doing, or whether you have a grounded argument to back up your assertion that the code was, as you chose to put it, "bad".
comex 11y ago
Personally, I think the suggested rewrite does a good job of defending the argument for ranting: http://catcode.com/comments/2015/cf20151101.html http://catcode.com/comments/2015/cf20151101.html Compared to the actual rant, it's deficient in explaining Linus's viewpoint in multiple ways: - The phrases "The problem as I see it" and "I think", which I imagine Eisenburg added in an attempt to avoid jumping to conclusions or avoid making it personal or whatever, to me come off as hesitant or unsure. There is an authoritative rejection of the patch itself at the end, but still the revised post sounds like Linus is inviting people to post their opinions over whether the code is actually problematic or not. By contrast, the original post makes it clear that he is highly convinced that the code is bad and will need extremely persuasive evidence to change his mind. Now, you could say that it's rarely productive to solve problems by shutting down debate, and that he should invite opinions - but in truth, Linus probably would at least consider a sufficiently rigorous and detailed counterargument, and him clearly expressing the force of his opinion gives other people a signal that they should take the time to write such an argument, rather than being more brief (because they think Linus is hesitant and that that is sufficient), and then being promptly overruled, even if, given the chance, they could have persuaded him. You might not see Eisenburg's version as hesitant yourself, but that's precisely the point - all language is ambiguous, but using reserved language errs on the side of having people think your opinion weaker than it is, while harsh language is the opposite. Of course, the flipside is that someone who doesn't know Linus's history might well conclude that he's so angry as to be beyond reason, discouraging detailed rebuttals for the opposite reason. In fact, I think that is likely to happen in this case, and that therefore his post went too far - just because I am defending harsh language in general doesn't mean I agree exactly with his tone choices. There are certainly potential midpoints between the actual rant and Eisenburg's version that would clearly establish his position without being quite so mean. But hindsight is 20/20, and the problems with Eisenburg's version show the danger in general of being reserved in online text communication, given its low bandwidth. - The rant also makes it clear that he thinks the whole idea of using such functions is bad, and that other authors writing somewhat similar code should also consider themselves warned, whereas Eisenburg's version makes it sound more like his complaint is specific to the case at hand - e.g. the especially poor formulation of the line criticized, compared to more elegant ways to use the overflow arithmetic functions, or the implementations of those functions. - Nethercote explicitly noted that the rewritten version is much shorter, but actually it is missing two important factual details: 1. The claims that the code is not particularly safe, and inefficient even with "magical compiler support". (Eisenburg's version just says it's unclear and inefficient /without/ magic compiler support.) 2. The reason why Linus is pulling some random line to criticize out of a bug pull request containing many patches. Issues with pull requests are usually merge conflicts, so is there an unstated issue with that here? The actual rant makes it clear that the conflict just happened to make him notice that particular bit of code, which he found so distasteful that he felt he had to jump in. By the way, I think Linus is full of crap: while the line at issue isn't great, the use of those overflow-arithmetic functions in general is a great idea, considering how easy it is to screw up a manual overflow check in C, and how ridiculously frequently this results in real security vulnerabilities (among other issues), including of course in Linux in the past. But that's mostly orthogonal to his manner of expression.
yAnonymous 11y ago
Yes, it's harsh, but it gets the point across in a very memorable way. He knows very well how people perceive it, but code quality and his reputation as a developer are more important to him than the reputation he gets from his rants.
- mikeash 11y ago
  I don't find it very memorable, aside from it reinforcing the memory that Linus is often a jerk. All the insults and general ranting get in the way of the point, they don't reinforce it. Compare with some classical technical rants like, say, The UNIX-HATERS Handbook. It has a wonderful ranty tone to it, but it's also full of pretty solid technical information and reasoned technical opinions. The tone makes it memorable without getting in the way of the information. It's far from a reference book, but it's great material. It's an amazing reminder of how much the computer industry loves to forget the past and then eventually reinvent it. Linus's rant, on the other hand, is about... integer overflow, I guess? And code readability? And I don't think he actually explains anything about either one, so I don't know why he prefers one version to the other, but I know he prefers it really strongly. Churchill said, "Diplomacy is the art of telling people to go to hell in such a way that they ask for directions." Similarly, a really good technical rant is one where you call the other person a complete and utter idiot in such a way that they thank you for your help.
akamaka 11y ago
I really don't like abuse in technical discussions, but this blog post is so poorly argued that I find myself siding 100% with Linus. The issue Linus is addressing is not merely the merits of those two lines of code, but of the culture and thinking that led to in being included. Here is the key message that has been completely omitted by the rewritten polite version: In fact, I want to make it clear to everybody* that code like this is completely unacceptable. Anybody who thinks that code like this is "safe" and "secure" because it uses fancy overflow detection functions is so far out to lunch that it's not even funny.* Linus doesn't just want those two lines fixed. He wants to make clear to every developer who thinks that this was good code, that this is in fact bad code. He wants to set an example for those who might have been unsure about speaking up and show that it is okay to strongly attack bad practices. He makes a point about "masturbation", which specifically means writing code that is satisfying and clever, but doesn't accomplish anything. There probably is a less coarse and more sensitive way to accomplish this, but this blog post has completely missed the point of the argument Linus is making.
marrs 11y ago
As I understand it, the Linux codebase has hundreds of regular contributors and Torvalds basically spends his entire time reviewing patches to an operating system kernel that is used in countless mission-critical scenarios across the world. The implications of introducing a bug or security exploit to an OS kernel could be as severe as loss of life. With that in mind, I find myself wondering every time I read a report like this: the instrument may be blunt and the punishment humiliating, but is it really unnecessary? If just one more contributor submits a similar patch, the chances of such an error making it through code review is doubled. If you don't have a strong handle on what is being submitted you will quickly lose control. The purpose of a rant like that is not to provide feedback to a contributor that he made a mistake, it's to send a clear message to the wider community that code of that kind must not ever be submitted in the first place. It's a first line of defence against bad code. And to that end, I'd say it's quite effective. I've never written a line of kernel code in my life, and I probably never will. But if I choose to make a contribution to Linux, even a few years from now, I will remember what practices to avoid through my memories of this and previous rants.
- enneff 11y ago
  > But if I choose to make a contribution to Linux, even a few years from now, I will remember what practices to avoid through my memories of this and previous rants. This reads like fantastic satire.
  - marrs 11y ago
    Do go on
- tptacek 11y ago
  "Such an error"? What error?
  - marrs 11y ago
    I don't know, I'm not a kernel developer. Whatever error Linus was trying to avoid.
uhny-uftz 11y ago
Methinks Linus needs to be heeding his own words: As a reviewer of code, please strive to keep things civil and focused on the technical issues involved. We are all humans, and frustrations can be high on both sides of the process. Try to keep in mind the immortal words of Bill and Ted, "Be excellent to each other." https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/Documentation/CodeOfConflict?id=ddbd2b7ad99a418c60397901a0f3c997d030c65e https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux....
x1024 11y ago
So which is it? Does ranting have a huge impact that keeps people out, or does it "not have the power"? And if it's powerless, why are you so eager to censor it, then? Also, why don't you keep in your lane and only oppress the Go community with your code of conduct? There's no need to also invade Linux.
- enneff 11y ago
  It is both. It means the only people who stick around are those who can tolerate the childishness. This certainly reduces the number of capable people that are willing to contribute to the project. I don't care much how Linus acts since I don't work with him. Some people try to emulate him and I sometimes come into contact with them; that's not great for me, but far be it from me to tell Linus how to act on his own mailing list. All I'm doing here is pointing out the fallacies in your defence of his silly behaviour. Do you also prefer his hysterical style? I am hardly "invading Linux" by commenting on an HN thread.
  - x1024 11y ago
    If I have to choose between Linus yelling at me and you censoring any official discussion channels, I'd go with Linus every time. Now why don't you go back to your locked threads and enjoy the silence?
    - enneff 11y ago
      I find it flattering that you try to deflect from your embarrassment by talking about me. :-)
      - x1024 11y ago
        That is a bad attempt at provocation and it won't work, sorry.
    - dang 11y ago
      Please don't post uncivil comments to Hacker News.
anonbanker 11y ago
A Social Justice Warrior from Mozilla makes a blog post about a project he doesn't contribute to, in order to comment about tone. I can't wait until all these people fork the kernel. I bet it'll have literally double the amount of commits from these javascript programmers, finally able to peacefully contribute.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
JohnDeHope 11y ago
I have an idea. What if people who like Linus' style work together. And people who like Eisenberg's style work together. And then they leave each other alone?
torkable 11y ago
I'm confused, where did the gender crap at the end come from? What was the point of that?

83 points by AndrewDucker 11y ago

I've read a few of Linus' rants and been on the fence, but this one does seem to have crossed some sort of line into being unnecessarily abusive, and to add to that, unclear communication. The rewritten version really does emphasise a much better approach. Linus's rant doesn't read like it was written by... a stable person. I was in full agreement with the article up until this: >Of the many things I could say about this, I will say just one: sadly, I am certain the reaction to this text would be entirely different were it written by a woman. What the... where on earth did this come from? Completely irrelevant and not true in my opinion. This issue is about whether it post was abusive, the gender of the poster makes no difference. I'm pretty sure that female Linus (assuming female Linus had accomplished everything real Linus has over her life) would have had a bunch of loyal followers that defended her no matter what she said, and a bunch of people who thought she was out of line. Does the gender issue really have to be shoehorned into every story?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
srpablo 11y ago
> Completely irrelevant and not true in my opinion. Hardly, when talking about brash/abusive behavior in the context of an industry where women are underrepresented, I think it's plenty fine to mention that there might be a connection to be made. > the gender of the poster makes no difference Eh, I don't agree. It's well-observed in social sciences that men are given more leeway to be abusive than women are; one example is how often words like "abrasive" or "bossy" come up in performance reports: http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/ http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias... Or just look at our popular media: how many male antiheroes on TV have enough audience to support them vs. women antiheroes? For every Walter White or Doctor House or Tony Soprano, how many unlikeable women are there? Roxane Gay writes about this pretty well. http://www.buzzfeed.com/roxanegay/not-here-to-make-friends-unlikable#.ineD9MA1A2 http://www.buzzfeed.com/roxanegay/not-here-to-make-friends-u... > Does the gender issue really have to be shoehorned into every story? Per above, I don't think it's "shoehorned." And I think it's fine if we talk about it more than we currently do, because there's plenty to suggest we don't talk about it enough or are insufficiently introspective about it.
- lagadu 11y ago
  It's shoehorned because it's inserting a completely unrelated assertion despite nothing in the slightest pointing to it at all on the rest of the article. It would have made just about as much sense if they'd written "This would be entirely different had it been written by a black person". But they just had to make it political and race just isn't a hot enough topic in the tech world so they didn't go for that. It's a pathetic attention grab that sullies an otherwise valid critique.
- pervycreeper 11y ago
  >Eh, I don't agree. It's well-observed in social sciences that men are given more leeway to be abusive than women are; one example is how often words like "abrasive" or "bossy" come up in performance reports: http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias.. http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias.... Have they ensured that they are using identical behaviors in this comparison?
- mbrock 11y ago
  If women are socially punished for being abrasive or bossy, you could consider THAT to be a problem. I might consider it a basic human right to use curse words, get angry, and come off as abrasive, and in fact I truly do. Somewhat relatedly, the supposition some people have that "women" need to be especially protected from teh scary curse words pisses me off. THAT is a gendered prejudice based on Victorian morality or something.
  - chasing 11y ago
    > I might consider it a basic human right to use curse words, get angry, and come off as abrasive, and in fact I truly do. This is a common error, but you're mixing up the idea that the government shouldn't be allowed to penalize you for your free speech and the idea that no one at all should be able to react to you for using curse words, getting angry, or coming off as abrasive. If I think you're an asshole, I'm perfectly within my rights to not hire you, not befriend you, make fun of you to other people, not invite you out on camping trips, "accidentally" give you smaller slices of birthday cake at company parties, write internet comments calling you a doofus, etc.
eis 11y ago
I had the same feeling about the last bit of the article. Drama for no reason. I would be glad if the tech community focused more on tech than on shitstorms. Some people are just too sensitive. If you don't like how Linus behaves, then don't deal with him. Noone forces you. But why post an article on your blog which is associated with Mozilla including a gist of collected swear words? At least Linus didn't engage in some meta-drama nonsense. unfamiliar: I don't agree though that this makes Linus a unstable person. In fact I'd say if people can't swallow some swear words, then they are in turn not emotionally strong enough.
- SolaceQuantum 11y ago
  There's no reason that anyone would need to be emotionally strong enough that in a company with adults in which the focus is working together on technology, they should expect to get sworn at a few times as an acceptable interaction with their peers.
  - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
    In normal interactions actually no - there are a few very rare situations where it might be appropriate to use expletives for emphasis. Day to day project work is not one of those.
  - eis 11y ago
    They don't have to expect it or even accept it. They can, if they want to. But they could as well just tell Linus he's a jerk. Or filter out the technical aspects of his post and ignore the rest. Or stop working with Linus. But there is no reason to create a wide discussion around this, imho.
- enneff 11y ago
  > If you don't like how Linus behaves, then don't deal with him. Noone forces you. Linus' status in the Open Source community makes him a role model for some people (whether he likes it or not; I suspect he doesn't), and so people imitate him. It's much less palatable coming from someone with less credibility and experience.
dwb 11y ago
Shanley Kane criticised Linus and got her and her family's addresses posted, death threats, rape threats, and other horrific abuse. If you think gender isn't an issue, you haven't educated yourself well enough.
- vox_mollis 11y ago
  This comment is very amusing in the context of the article. Shanley Kane uses abusive language, at minimum, two orders of magnitude more often than Linus does.
  - dwb 11y ago
    Abuse requires a power imbalance in favour of the abuser. That was not the case for Shanley's criticism.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      I think I know what you're trying to say, but it probably isn't true that abuse requires a power imbalance, unless "willingness to abuse" is itself a form of power, in which case the word doesn't mean much anymore.
sarciszewski 11y ago
> Does the gender issue really have to be shoehorned into every story? There are some people who believe it needs to be brought up more, even in places where it's off topic, because raising awareness is easy and historically it has been an effective strategy to move the needle on public perception. Linus isn't celebrated because Linus is a famous programmer notorious for being quick to reach for the poison pen, Linus is being celebrated because he's a man, or so the story goes. I agree that gender isn't relevant to Linus's behavior. The door swings both ways on abuse, after all. Humans of all gender identities are equally capable of being terrible to humans of any gender identity. But if the author's gripe is with the public reaction to it, it sort of makes sense why they would bring gender up. Namely: strategic political reasons.
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
I have noticed that Nordic non native English people often have very good spoken English but have a poor grasp of the unwritten rules concerning "engineering language"
- toyg 11y ago
  It's not just Nordics. Non-native speakers tend to see swearwords as funny (aren't they the first thing one learns, after all? Even as a kid!), I'm guilty of that myself. For English in particular, this is reinforced by abundant film material: the cooler the movie, the highest the chance to have it packed with swearwords, because it makes it sexier for native-speakers. This results in non-natives (who will likely consume this sort of exceptional material but not necessarily the more average stuff) assuming "harsh" language is more acceptable than it might actually be in practice. Some productions' appeal is almost entirely based on swearwords, e.g. In The Loop.
  - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
    Yes taking Malcolm Tucker as a guide to appropriate English usage is not a good idea.
GPGPU 11y ago
> Does the gender issue really have to be shoehorned into every story? Exactly right. I read that like and I lost interest in reading any more from this guy. Now he's trying to make a point about "sexism" by pulling a strawman out of thin air
JustSomeNobody 11y ago
My wife and I are both software engineers, so I'm particularly sensitive to this topic. However, this even through me for a loop as to why it was mentioned.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Me too. Like, I think I agree with this post? But I'm not sure it's the best illustration of the phenomenon, or even a good one.
  - JustSomeNobody 11y ago
    Yeah, it's just... awkward.
hoopd 11y ago
> What the... where on earth did this come from? It comes from the same place all flamebait comes from: they're picking a fight.
anonbanker 11y ago
If you've been paying attention to Mozilla post-Eich, it's overrun with social justice warriors now. the JWZ's are long gone, since replaced by the Apparatchik[0]. Thankfully, the Servo side of things still has competent engineers. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparatchik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparatchik

metaos 11y ago

From the team that hounded out Brendan Eich... May I quote the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19: "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression: this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

jimbokun 11y ago
And when you exercise that right, other people have the right to point out when you are being a jerk.
ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
Freedom of opinion and expression also means people can point you out as being an abusive asshole. Goes both ways.
chasing 11y ago
You misunderstand this passage. It doesn't mean you can open your mouth and say any stupid thing and no one can do anything about it. You can get fired. You can get your account removed from Twitter. People can complain about you on the internet. Oh, and don't paint Brendan Eich as some kind of victim of the free speech police. He actively participated in trying to deny a large class of Americans the basic freedom to marry whom they wanted. And people decided they didn't want someone with that record running Mozilla.
mikeash 11y ago
What's your point in posting that quote? Sure, Linus and Eich can say what they want, and others can say what they want about that.
Kristine1975 11y ago
Brendan Eich stepping down as Mozilla's CEO was not due to speech: >His appointment sparked controversy over a $1,000 political donation Eich had made in 2008 to the successful campaign for California Proposition 8, which sought to establish that, "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

jimbokun 11y ago

Can anyone defend Linus' version as better communication than Eisenberg's?

x1024 11y ago
Nobody will try to pull that shit again for quite some time. The "Constructive" version will be handwaved by submitting the same code again and giving literally any deflecting excuse like "You're just afraid of using new technology like this function.
- mikeash 11y ago
  "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it and stop there lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove lid again and that is well but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore." The lesson a lot of people are going to learn from this is, "Don't submit any code to Linux." Not submitting code like this is merely going to be a small side effect. Especially since Linus doesn't explain his reasoning so there's no real way to know if the next chunk of code is going to displease him or not.
  - marrs 11y ago
    The lesson a lot of people are going to learn from this is, "Don't submit any code to Linux." That's true, but not really a problem. Linux is one of the most popular open source projects out there.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      It's still a problem if you want to keep it that way, or if you value quality over quantity.
      - marrs 11y ago
        But the shouting is intended to maintain quality. I appreciate that you doubt it does this. You could be right, but the article doesn't convince me of this. It seems to have a different agenda anyway, that the shouting is unacceptable regardless of any benefit. I'm not sure I go along with that either.

nabla9 11y ago

I thought that finally I can see example of Linus being abusive. This was not it. Linus was attacking the work and ideas and cursing them. He was not attacking the person who wrote the code. Cursing is not abusive by itself. Cursing is emotional emphasis. I would not want to work in a environment where strong emotional language used to criticize your work is considered abusive. If conflict over ideas and work does not make your blood flow, you don't care.

Cyph0n 11y ago
But do you not feel offended when you are the one who came up with the idea?
- x1024 11y ago
  They... should be offended? Because it was a bad idea that ruins the Linux Kernel. Kernel development isn't for everyone.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Can you (the person who wrote that this code would "ruin" the Linux kernel) explain in as much detail as you can how it would have ruined the Linux kernel? I'm curious about how much people take what Linus says at face value.
    - x1024 11y ago
      Code being safe or unsafe is a pretty objective metric of quality, methinks.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        I agree. Can you explain how this particular code is "safe" or "unsafe"? Again: I'm curious as to how much of what Linus says is taken at face value on HN. I'm even more interested now, because the fulcrum of Linus's argument isn't safety.

colah3 11y ago

When I was 17, I was super enthusiastic about Linux. I read a bunch of stuff about kernel development. Linus' attitude was very well known and presented as an amusing thing. Glorified even. I remember reading some of his emails with a great deal of schadenfreude. Now I'm really glad I never pursued that. I work in a field where all the leading figures are absurdly nice and respectful. Reading Linus' rant makes me appreciate that more.

blowski 11y ago
I think this is the underlying point. It's difficult to imagine that Linus's style of criticising attracts people to the industry, or indeed has any benefits at all. Conversely, it clearly puts off a lot of talented people from getting involved in Linux, and people use his style as justification for their own aggression. Outside of the open source movement, managers using this kind of language would be reprimanded and even fired, as it could make employees feel stressed and suffering from constructive dismissal. There is simply no need for being rude, or any kind of aggression in the workplace, and we should consider open source contributors as being in the workplace. Full stop.
- mbrock 11y ago
  "Difficult to imagine" isn't evidence; it's just failure of imagination.

jug5 11y ago

"Abuse" ITT: Grown adults being little bitches. This is why the next generation will be so fragile they'll be unable to take any sort of criticism. God help us.

x1024 11y ago

Funny how the author "will moderate comments" and the only comments left are those who uncritically agree with them.

gpvos 11y ago
I see at least two comments that are critical of the author. And even if they were posted after you wrote this, how do you know he has deleted anything at all?
- x1024 11y ago
  Give it an hour.
  - WolfeReader 11y ago
    Two hours later, they're still up. Time to admit you're wrong.
- lagadu 11y ago
  Because it's a very divisive issue. Obviously I cannot guarantee that he had posts submitted that are critical of him but I would be very surprised that a fairly high-profile post (high enough to be featured on HN) had anything but nearly universal acclaim, given how it tends to polarize crowds.
rylee 11y ago
The comments which disagree with the author are patently abusive. I'm not entirely sure what your point here is supposed to be.
nnethercote 11y ago
I'm the author. You posted this comment 3 hours ago, before I deleted any comments. I've since deleted 3 or 4 of the worst ones, but left up ones that disagree without being overtly abusive.

shepik 11y ago

To be honest, Linus' rants is making a better point for me. I really feel his pain with overflow_usub, and i feel nothing when reading rewritten version.

adamc 11y ago
Why on earth do I need to "feel his pain" rather than just understand the issues at hand?
- raverbashing 11y ago
  Because them some people think it's still ok to go with the broken code That's cultural differences 101 As a simple example: in Canada one might say "please do not feed the animals" in a Zoo. In some other places, for the message to have the same effect it must be as such: "It is expressly forbidden to feed the animals! Those being caught doing so will be expelled from the zoo!"
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Wait. "Broken" code?
    - raverbashing 11y ago
      From the original Linus email "And yes, you still could have overflow issues if the whole "hlen + xyz" expression overflows, but quite frankly, the "overflow_usub()" code had that too"
      - tptacek 11y ago
        I'm afraid that doesn't clarify, because if the overflow_usub code is broken in that sense, then so is the code Linus is advocating for. Do you still think "broken" was the right word to use? Why?
        11y ago

adamc 11y ago

My take on it was that the non-abusive rewrite would be much more useful to the submitter, as it lays out the issues. The original just make Linus look like he's lost it. Glad I don't have to work with him.

ZanyProgrammer 11y ago

Why is it that people who support Linus' tirades and mention freedom of speech, etc get so incredibly hurt when others exercise their own freedom of speech and point out how abusive they are?

thomashabets2 11y ago
Because one is saying "what you are saying is wrong" and the other is saying "you should stop talking". That's a fundamental difference. If they get hurt (big "if"), then they are still not saying "and that means you are not allowed to talk". Are you seeing an inconsistency that I'm not?
- rylee 11y ago
  No one's saying "you are not allowed to talk"; they're saying "you're a jerk if you decide to be pointedly abusive".
- mikeash 11y ago
  OK, so "you should stop talking" is bad. How about, "you should stop talking about how that guy should stop talking"? Does that qualify too? Does every meta-level have the same problem, or is there a limit to how deep it goes?
- zzalpha 11y ago
  Because one is saying "what you are saying is wrong" and the other is saying "you should stop talking". No, they're saying stop being a jerk. The only way that translates to "you should stop talking" is if said person is incapable of communicating whilst not being a jerk.
  - thomashabets2 11y ago
    I'm sorry if my illustration of why there is no hypocrisy was unclear. There may be jerk behaviour. I'm not saying there isn't. I did not mean to address that part at all. I'm saying there's no hypocrisy.
11y ago

luso_brazilian 11y ago

Previously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10492282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10492282 Wasn't it throughly discussed, dissected, analysed and debated in that very recent topic? The only new input this post beings is one more opinion among the many in that other HN post. Should it be considered a dupe?

probdist 11y ago
Yes. The link for this story adds less than the average comment on HN in the previous discussion to the overall conversation.

dwb 11y ago

Linus doesn't deserve to be in his position. Technical merit doesn't excuse being a horrible manager of people.

sarciszewski 11y ago
> Linus doesn't deserve to be in his position. What exactly do you mean by "in his position"? It's his project that he started years ago. His participation is likened to a monarchy, not a democracy. His further involvement is, therefore, not something that can be decided by an election. He doesn't deserve to be in his position with respect to a project he started and owns? That doesn't make any damn sense.
- norea-armozel 11y ago
  Or maybe since he can't communicate without expletives or being overly coarse he can appoint someone else to the task of explaining the problems with code contributions?
  - sarciszewski 11y ago
    > Or maybe ... he can appoint someone else to the task of explaining the problems with code contributions? Of course he can, but that doesn't mean he will.
  - arguseyes 11y ago
    Or maybe he doesn't care about random cultural norms of some region on this planet ... and doesn't need to? Should he end all his messages with "Long live our dear leader Kim Jong-Un" to not offend North-Koreans?
    - norea-armozel 11y ago
      This is not equivalent to what I've stated, but thanks for strawmanning my point entirely. :)

mbrock 11y ago

A person wrote things that some other people find morally objectionable. Some other people think the thing that person wrote was not morally objectionable. Now someone "considers" the thing "indefensible" in their "personal opinion." Hacker News asks for intellectually stimulating topics; this one isn't.

zubspace 11y ago

Linus' version is intimidating. But that's why it is very effective. Case in point, we people on hacker news would have never even read his rant if the language was mild. So in some way it sticks better. You really DO NOT WANT to step on his toes again (and everyone else reading it, too), so in the end Linus' wins. Also, it's sad, but after so many years on the internet I don't consider his language to be abusive. It's aggressive yes, but clearly there went much though into it. If I'm honest, i find it kind of amusing. But maybe that's just me.

jasonlotito 11y ago
> You really DO NOT WANT to step on his toes again (and everyone else reading it, too), so in the end Linus' wins. And yet it keeps happening, frequent enough that it's something everyone knows about. If anything, he's not optimizing his own responses based on actual performance. He's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And he's not even being efficient with it. And, well, pretty sure he ruins his own performance by getting all enraged like that.
- lagadu 11y ago
  > He's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And he's not even being efficient with it. It seems his results are just fine, why would he expect different results? I say this supported by the slightly arguable premise that the Linux kernel is a good example of a big success in software development.
enneff 11y ago
> You really DO NOT WANT to step on his toes again (and everyone else reading it, too), so in the end Linus' wins. But the person who wrote the code still argued with him. They're still making the same points that they would have made whether Linus were polite or not. Linus is the lead for the kernel project, so at the end of the day he wins regardless.

arguseyes 11y ago

If US-Americans could just for a moment stop trying to impose their "culture" on everyone else, that would be nice. Oh, right, they can't.

delinka 11y ago
Perhaps you could elaborate on how this is even relevant.
- arguseyes 11y ago
  Most people on this planet can deal with opinions just fine. Case in point: the recipient of Linus' message. It only ever seems to be an issue for those entitled, self-absorbed Title IX crybabies for whom every opinion they disagree with is "literally rape". :-)
  - delinka 11y ago
    So you've stereotyped over three hundred million people to be "self-absorbed Title IX crybabies for whom every opinion they disagree with is 'literally rape'." I still don't see how this is relevant or contributes to the discussion.
    - arguseyes 11y ago
      > I still don't see how this is relevant or contributes to the discussion. This is something you should definitely work on then.
      - delinka 11y ago
        Obviously, since your original post was downvoted to oblivion and flagged (neither of which I can do because you replied to me), I must be the one with the problem.
        arguseyes 11y ago

dudul 11y ago

"I am certain the reaction to this text would be entirely different were it written by a woman." Do we really need this garbage at the end of this post? How is it f-ing relevant? Linus' post was despicable in itself, everybody sees that except a few zealots. People are condemning it on this very thread, why do we need to throw this hypothetical gender bias BS? The rant was written by a man, it is needlessly rude and aggressive, and we all point it out. Period. A much more relevant thing to say would have been "I am certain the reaction to this text would be entirely different were it written by the guy who created Linux."

ubdj2 11y ago
I agree with the parent. This article adds that in, what for? Does it bring anything interesting to the discussion? Is it even explained? What a useless article.

forgotmypassw 11y ago

That's simply an expression to emphasise on current feelings and to add tone to the text. The rewritten text is clearly overly bland and on the edge of being apologic and doesn't reflect the anger and annoyance that Linus most likely felt at the time of writing the mail. It seems that people do not realize anymore that languages exist not only to pass the point along but also to express yourself (including emotions and feelings). Further more I think that thanks to Linus being "abusive" it makes contributors think twice before they submit code and making sure the code is mostly valid, which in turn, results in higher quality code landing in the codebase and decreases the risk of potential bugs. Does that make some people "scared" of contributing? Sure but that's a whole different story.

hoopd 11y ago

Abusive ranting isn't healthy communication but neither are personal attacks carefully disguised as constructive criticism. The post raises the question as to whether passive aggression or active aggression is the worse offender.

pervycreeper 11y ago

I am troubled by this obsession that these activists have with Torvalds. Could there be anything more minor than these complaints about tone? What harm does the existence of one software project which permits 'rants' do to others? Do those who claim to desire civility not understand that by hounding and inundating him and the community in general with the same talking points ad infinitum, they are themselves being uncivil? Not only by the unrelenting and hostile complaining, though. They have gone much further; Eric S. Raymond alleged yesterday that feminist groups have been repeatedly attempting to frame him for sexual assault! http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907 The OP post title is applicable to this situation in my opinion.

ceejayoz 11y ago
I'm not sure ESR is the best unbiased source on feminist groups. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond#i_am_slowly_going_crazy_one_two_three_four_five_six_switch http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond#i_am_slowly_goi... Rational Wiki certainly has its own biases, but they call out a lot of problematic items with links right back to the blog posts if you care to verify.
- pervycreeper 11y ago
  I wasn't aware of that crankery, however, that does not discredit these straightforward allegations (argumentum ad hominem). I should add that this particular tactic is already being practiced on the bigwigs in the atheist community, so it's far from implausible.
  - ceejayoz 11y ago
    "A source I won't name says people I don't like are out to get me" from a known crank is not a "straightforward allegation".
  - comex 11y ago
    The allegations have absolutely no evidence behind them. In that case of course one should take into account their source's general credibility, or lack thereof. As for the atheist community, you will have to provide a source.

deleted 11y ago

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ckozlowski 11y ago

I thought Mr. Sowa's reply to be a very professional in defending his decisions to write it as he did, and still remain open and gracious in Linus' criticism. http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02919.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02919.html A worthwhile read in how to handle these situations.

igsmo 11y ago

i read this response by linus and it doesn't seem to be abusive to anyone, he's being critical of the code. who is this linus guy anyway? he sounds like a typical new yorker.

such_a_casual 11y ago
>who is this linus guy anyway? lol. just the guy who wrote linux and git. He's a fin btw.
- igsmo 11y ago
  ah. the name did sound familiar. in the position he's in, he probably sees too much b.s. and shenanigans all day, and i imagine there are people and organizations out there, perhaps even govts that would love to see this little os project fail.

jsight 11y ago

"Nonetheless, I’ve seen multiple people defending and even celebrating it. (One outlet called it an “epic rant”.) " I don't think calling it an "epic rant" was celebrating it. http://www.itworld.com/article/3000564/linux/linus-goes-on-epic-rant-about-linux-kernel-code.html http://www.itworld.com/article/3000564/linux/linus-goes-on-e... "Linus loses it in an epic rant about kernel code." isn't exactly a complimentary line, IMO.

msbarnett 11y ago
I read the adjective "epic" as flattering/celebrating. In use its somewhat similar to "awesome" in North American English. I'm not clear if the author is from the UK or something, though.

ekianjo 11y ago

> I consider this kind of abuse indefensible. Nonetheless, I’ve seen multiple people defending and even celebrating it. And so what? You have never seen bullies in School ? Are you going to go in the streets and fight for moral righteousness in every corner ? Or are you just picking on Linus because it's an easy target with no controversy ? It's not like people who work with Linus don't know how he acts and interacts with others. I'd rather have someone who is blunt and direct than someone who smiles to your face and says shit in your back. At least you know where you stand.

ceejayoz 11y ago
> You have never seen bullies in School ? Of course there are bullies in school. That doesn't make it a good thing. Ideally, there wouldn't be bullies in school. And Linus isn't a child. > I'd rather have someone who is blunt and direct than someone who smiles to your face and says shit in your back. False dichotomy. There are plenty of people who smile to your face without having to say shit about you behind your back.

boost_ 11y ago

abuse? offensive? haha, what a first world problem, having my code called “shit” is abuse now.. i wonder what you would say about real world abuse. just grow a skin, Linus can say and do whatever he wants about his project (linux). don’t like it? don’t help it then. seriously kids these days get offended by everything..

such_a_casual 11y ago

This is hilarious. This has to be satirical. When did mail list rants become a social issue?

snomad 11y ago

I didn't find this rant abusive. Once worked for a law firm in a high stress industry - some of those lawyers were abusive, woah nelly. Also, have a brother who was in army, you can't even imagine the language of he and his friends. This is child's play and someone who ultimately cares about delivering a quality end product who was offended by someone taking away from that mission. And his point was right, the code was bad and shoehorned into a magical one size fits all solution. I'm most curious on the age / background of those in this thread who do find it hurtful and offensive.

nabla9 11y ago
>I'm most curious on the age / background of those in this thread who do find it hurtful and offensive. Me too. I feel that there is generational shift. For me, abusive means that someone picks you as a permanent target and treats you badly consistently. I'm completely fine with people calling me with names over some issues when it's clear that they are fighting against me over some specific issue. I'm allowed to use strong words as well. When the subjects changes, there is no hostility. That's how you know you are dealing with emotional person who is not abusing you. Picking up text fragments and analyzing one email for triggers that can be labeled as "abusive" seems so weird. I guess I feel that there is difference between "abusive language" and abusive and others don't see it.
- marrs 11y ago
  I agree, and I think you're both right that it's generational.
tptacek 11y ago
"the code was bad and shoehorned into a magical one size fits all solution" Can you explain what you mean by this? "Not idiomatically appropriate for the kernel" and "bad" are very different concepts. There's an interesting phenomenon happening where people are retconning Linus's objection to this code into a value judgement on the code itself. I'm curious whether that's what you're doing, or whether you have a grounded argument to back up your assertion that the code was, as you chose to put it, "bad".

comex 11y ago

Personally, I think the suggested rewrite does a good job of defending the argument for ranting: http://catcode.com/comments/2015/cf20151101.html http://catcode.com/comments/2015/cf20151101.html Compared to the actual rant, it's deficient in explaining Linus's viewpoint in multiple ways: - The phrases "The problem as I see it" and "I think", which I imagine Eisenburg added in an attempt to avoid jumping to conclusions or avoid making it personal or whatever, to me come off as hesitant or unsure. There is an authoritative rejection of the patch itself at the end, but still the revised post sounds like Linus is inviting people to post their opinions over whether the code is actually problematic or not. By contrast, the original post makes it clear that he is highly convinced that the code is bad and will need extremely persuasive evidence to change his mind. Now, you could say that it's rarely productive to solve problems by shutting down debate, and that he should invite opinions - but in truth, Linus probably would at least consider a sufficiently rigorous and detailed counterargument, and him clearly expressing the force of his opinion gives other people a signal that they should take the time to write such an argument, rather than being more brief (because they think Linus is hesitant and that that is sufficient), and then being promptly overruled, even if, given the chance, they could have persuaded him. You might not see Eisenburg's version as hesitant yourself, but that's precisely the point - all language is ambiguous, but using reserved language errs on the side of having people think your opinion weaker than it is, while harsh language is the opposite. Of course, the flipside is that someone who doesn't know Linus's history might well conclude that he's so angry as to be beyond reason, discouraging detailed rebuttals for the opposite reason. In fact, I think that is likely to happen in this case, and that therefore his post went too far - just because I am defending harsh language in general doesn't mean I agree exactly with his tone choices. There are certainly potential midpoints between the actual rant and Eisenburg's version that would clearly establish his position without being quite so mean. But hindsight is 20/20, and the problems with Eisenburg's version show the danger in general of being reserved in online text communication, given its low bandwidth. - The rant also makes it clear that he thinks the whole idea of using such functions is bad, and that other authors writing somewhat similar code should also consider themselves warned, whereas Eisenburg's version makes it sound more like his complaint is specific to the case at hand - e.g. the especially poor formulation of the line criticized, compared to more elegant ways to use the overflow arithmetic functions, or the implementations of those functions. - Nethercote explicitly noted that the rewritten version is much shorter, but actually it is missing two important factual details: 1. The claims that the code is not particularly safe, and inefficient even with "magical compiler support". (Eisenburg's version just says it's unclear and inefficient /without/ magic compiler support.) 2. The reason why Linus is pulling some random line to criticize out of a bug pull request containing many patches. Issues with pull requests are usually merge conflicts, so is there an unstated issue with that here? The actual rant makes it clear that the conflict just happened to make him notice that particular bit of code, which he found so distasteful that he felt he had to jump in. By the way, I think Linus is full of crap: while the line at issue isn't great, the use of those overflow-arithmetic functions in general is a great idea, considering how easy it is to screw up a manual overflow check in C, and how ridiculously frequently this results in real security vulnerabilities (among other issues), including of course in Linux in the past. But that's mostly orthogonal to his manner of expression.

yAnonymous 11y ago

Yes, it's harsh, but it gets the point across in a very memorable way. He knows very well how people perceive it, but code quality and his reputation as a developer are more important to him than the reputation he gets from his rants.

mikeash 11y ago
I don't find it very memorable, aside from it reinforcing the memory that Linus is often a jerk. All the insults and general ranting get in the way of the point, they don't reinforce it. Compare with some classical technical rants like, say, The UNIX-HATERS Handbook. It has a wonderful ranty tone to it, but it's also full of pretty solid technical information and reasoned technical opinions. The tone makes it memorable without getting in the way of the information. It's far from a reference book, but it's great material. It's an amazing reminder of how much the computer industry loves to forget the past and then eventually reinvent it. Linus's rant, on the other hand, is about... integer overflow, I guess? And code readability? And I don't think he actually explains anything about either one, so I don't know why he prefers one version to the other, but I know he prefers it really strongly. Churchill said, "Diplomacy is the art of telling people to go to hell in such a way that they ask for directions." Similarly, a really good technical rant is one where you call the other person a complete and utter idiot in such a way that they thank you for your help.

akamaka 11y ago

I really don't like abuse in technical discussions, but this blog post is so poorly argued that I find myself siding 100% with Linus. The issue Linus is addressing is not merely the merits of those two lines of code, but of the culture and thinking that led to in being included. Here is the key message that has been completely omitted by the rewritten polite version: In fact, I want to make it clear to everybody* that code like this is completely unacceptable. Anybody who thinks that code like this is "safe" and "secure" because it uses fancy overflow detection functions is so far out to lunch that it's not even funny.* Linus doesn't just want those two lines fixed. He wants to make clear to every developer who thinks that this was good code, that this is in fact bad code. He wants to set an example for those who might have been unsure about speaking up and show that it is okay to strongly attack bad practices. He makes a point about "masturbation", which specifically means writing code that is satisfying and clever, but doesn't accomplish anything. There probably is a less coarse and more sensitive way to accomplish this, but this blog post has completely missed the point of the argument Linus is making.

marrs 11y ago

As I understand it, the Linux codebase has hundreds of regular contributors and Torvalds basically spends his entire time reviewing patches to an operating system kernel that is used in countless mission-critical scenarios across the world. The implications of introducing a bug or security exploit to an OS kernel could be as severe as loss of life. With that in mind, I find myself wondering every time I read a report like this: the instrument may be blunt and the punishment humiliating, but is it really unnecessary? If just one more contributor submits a similar patch, the chances of such an error making it through code review is doubled. If you don't have a strong handle on what is being submitted you will quickly lose control. The purpose of a rant like that is not to provide feedback to a contributor that he made a mistake, it's to send a clear message to the wider community that code of that kind must not ever be submitted in the first place. It's a first line of defence against bad code. And to that end, I'd say it's quite effective. I've never written a line of kernel code in my life, and I probably never will. But if I choose to make a contribution to Linux, even a few years from now, I will remember what practices to avoid through my memories of this and previous rants.

enneff 11y ago
> But if I choose to make a contribution to Linux, even a few years from now, I will remember what practices to avoid through my memories of this and previous rants. This reads like fantastic satire.
- marrs 11y ago
  Do go on
tptacek 11y ago
"Such an error"? What error?
- marrs 11y ago
  I don't know, I'm not a kernel developer. Whatever error Linus was trying to avoid.

uhny-uftz 11y ago

Methinks Linus needs to be heeding his own words: As a reviewer of code, please strive to keep things civil and focused on the technical issues involved. We are all humans, and frustrations can be high on both sides of the process. Try to keep in mind the immortal words of Bill and Ted, "Be excellent to each other." https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/Documentation/CodeOfConflict?id=ddbd2b7ad99a418c60397901a0f3c997d030c65e https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux....

x1024 11y ago

So which is it? Does ranting have a huge impact that keeps people out, or does it "not have the power"? And if it's powerless, why are you so eager to censor it, then? Also, why don't you keep in your lane and only oppress the Go community with your code of conduct? There's no need to also invade Linux.

enneff 11y ago
It is both. It means the only people who stick around are those who can tolerate the childishness. This certainly reduces the number of capable people that are willing to contribute to the project. I don't care much how Linus acts since I don't work with him. Some people try to emulate him and I sometimes come into contact with them; that's not great for me, but far be it from me to tell Linus how to act on his own mailing list. All I'm doing here is pointing out the fallacies in your defence of his silly behaviour. Do you also prefer his hysterical style? I am hardly "invading Linux" by commenting on an HN thread.
- x1024 11y ago
  If I have to choose between Linus yelling at me and you censoring any official discussion channels, I'd go with Linus every time. Now why don't you go back to your locked threads and enjoy the silence?
  - enneff 11y ago
    I find it flattering that you try to deflect from your embarrassment by talking about me. :-)
    - x1024 11y ago
      That is a bad attempt at provocation and it won't work, sorry.
  - dang 11y ago
    Please don't post uncivil comments to Hacker News.

anonbanker 11y ago

A Social Justice Warrior from Mozilla makes a blog post about a project he doesn't contribute to, in order to comment about tone. I can't wait until all these people fork the kernel. I bet it'll have literally double the amount of commits from these javascript programmers, finally able to peacefully contribute.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

JohnDeHope 11y ago

I have an idea. What if people who like Linus' style work together. And people who like Eisenberg's style work together. And then they leave each other alone?

torkable 11y ago

I'm confused, where did the gender crap at the end come from? What was the point of that?