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Ugh. This is the nightmare scenario for walled gardens. Don't like the content? Don't let it into the ecosystem. I hope the open web continues to exist and we

Ugh. This is the nightmare scenario for walled gardens. Don't like the content? Don't let it into the ecosystem. I hope the open web continues to exist and we move past the app era, but I think this is a pipe dream. It's Compuserve and AOL 2.0.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
When people demand open content, they will get it. Until then, just keep making the case for open content.
panarky 11y ago
Not all platforms aggressively censor content to benefit the owner of the platform. I can easily use Google search and YouTube to find out how to block Google's own ads[1] and to root Android phones. Google doesn't censor information that hurts Google's interests. Microsoft's Bing has information on how to replace Windows Media Player with free and open alternatives like VLC. Bing even suggests searches to prevent Windows 10 from spying[2]. It is possible to run an ethical platform that doesn't tilt the playing field to the provider of the platform. Apple most definitely does not provide an ethical platform. (By the way, YouTube has a CCC channel[3].) [1] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=block+google+ads https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=block+google+ad... [2] http://imgur.com/K1fGwFt http://imgur.com/K1fGwFt [3] https://www.youtube.com/user/CCCdeVideos https://www.youtube.com/user/CCCdeVideos
- kentonv 11y ago
  Google banned disconnect.me -- a popular privacy app that blocks various tracking mechanisms (without blocking advertising itself) -- from Android[0]. Apple had no problem with the iOS version. It seems that each big centralized walled garden has their targets. [0] http://www.businessinsider.com/why-google-banned-connect-mobile-2014-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/why-google-banned-connect-mob...
  - panarky 11y ago
    > It seems that each big centralized walled garden has their targets. This is false equivalence. Just because you can find an example where Google banned an app does not mean that all platforms are equally unethical. Google Play simply doesn't allow apps that interfere with other apps. That's the reason the disconnect.me app was removed. It's telling that other apps from Disconnect are still available on Google Play. Disconnect Search[1], for example, is contrary to Google's interests, but Google does not ban it because it doesn't interfere with other apps. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=me.disconnect.search https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=me.disconnect....
    - kentonv 11y ago
      > does not mean that all platforms are equally unethical. I would agree that Google is more ethical than Apple, for now. But they still do bad things, and they could easily get worse in the future. We need to move away from this kind of centralization, so that no one has the power to unilaterally gag legitimate content. > Google Play doesn't allow apps that interfere with other apps. Almost every app "interferes" with others in some way. The "no interference" clause seems clearly intended to target interference which was unwanted by the user, but that is not how Google applied it here. If the user expressly intends that the app interfere with other apps, then I think that it is unethical to prohibit them from doing so on their own device. Disconnect is not malware; users install it for exactly the purpose it implements.
      - Natanael_L 11y ago
        Interference here is targeted functional manipulation. Not fifth degree unintended side effects. The user's wish is not considered. There's a reason not a lot Xposed modules are on Google Play. Don't like it? Enable 3rd party sources (a function added by Google!) and install those apps from elsewhere.
        kentonv 11y ago
        > 3rd party sources (a function added by Google!) It's great that Google allows this. That's one thing that makes them better than Apple (in my opinion). However, it is still the case that being banned from the Play store can kill an app. Few users know how to sideload things. In a world where there are several competing app markets that users can easily switch between, it would not be a big deal for Google to refuse to carry apps they don't like on their market, but when 99% of the users realistically can't get apps anywhere else than Google Play, then it becomes problematic.
- pilsetnieks 11y ago
  > Google doesn't censor information that hurts Google's interests. I challenge you to find a Chrome extension in the Chrome web store that lets you download Youtube videos. Does Google allow, say, Amazon app store app in the Play store? Apple doesn't have a search engine of it's own so I cannot point you to search results showing how to use other software instead of Apple's but do you really think they would censor the results of a search engine? The comparison is irrelevant. What about that time when Google banned Disconnect from the Play store? [1] Meanwhile Apple actually built a way to create content filters into the OS and actively promotes them in the App Store. I'm not saying that Apple is without fault, certainly not, but neither of the big companies are a shining beacon of enlightenment, and every one of them operates out of self-interest. [1] http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2411562/google-slapped-with-android-antitrust-complaint-over-banned-anti-malware-app http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2411562/google-slap...
  - JoshTriplett 11y ago
    > I challenge you to find a Chrome extension in the Chrome web store that lets you download Youtube videos. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/search/youtube%20downloader?_category=extensions https://chrome.google.com/webstore/search/youtube%20download...
    - pilsetnieks 11y ago
      You just linked to a search result page where there is only one extension with 57 reviews that purports to be able to do that. It's liable to get pulled if it gets any more popular. Every other app is just a generic video downloader and many explicitly mention that they cannot download youtube videos due to Chrome store restrictions.
      - sangnoir 11y ago
        > It's liable to get pulled if it gets any more popular Seems to me like instead of conceding that your challenge has been met, you are changing the goalposts.
- ATsch 11y ago
  CCCdeVideos is a) the German Channel. b) not an official Channel. The CCC recommends using their official Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/mediacccde https://www.youtube.com/user/mediacccde
  - biafra 11y ago
    Actually they recommend not using Youtube but https://media.ccc.de/ https://media.ccc.de/ instead.
melling 11y ago
Doesn't Android have over %80 market share worldwide? Isn't it open? Where's the nightmare?
atmosx 11y ago
It's not a real problem because 99.9% of the people interested in this sort of things are not going to access this (kind of) content via AppleTV or Apple Store or whatever.
- hellbanner 11y ago
  This is the ironic part -- are hackers who attend & present at Defcon using AppleTV?
chrstphrhrt 11y ago
I tend to believe that centralization of power will lead to corruption simply by making it more possible/likely. Do you think that something like Ethereum (https://www.ethereum.org https://www.ethereum.org) would enable us to sidestep these kinds of problems, at least on the web? What other ways might we design our systems to be resilient against unethical treatment?
- mmastrac 11y ago
  > I tend to believe that centralization of power will lead to corruption simply by making it more possible/likely. Completely agree. > Do you think that something like Ethereum (https://www.ethereum.org https://www.ethereum.org) would enable us to sidestep these kinds of problems, at least on the web? Honestly not sure. Part of the problem with the way things work today is that everyone is chasing money -- the next hot app, the next unicorn. That's how FB, Apple and Android attracted people into their walled gardens. As long as we have hungry developers, we are going to have the problem with gardens attracting them.
  - jolux 11y ago
    > As long as we have hungry developers, we are going to have the problem with gardens attracting them. That sounds like an argument for libertarian socialism...
    - mmastrac 11y ago
      Alternatively: basic income.
      - jolux 11y ago
        In America those two are synonymous. Well, at least socialism is, probably not anarchism.
tomkin 11y ago
It's funny you say that. I always remark at how god damned similar Facebook is to AOL. Keywords and all.
interpol_p 11y ago
If I was running a store that represented my brand I would make sure every piece of third-party content was curated, showed things that catered to my audience, and minimised my legal liabilities. I would want my store to reflect my brand's values and culture. How is it that we expect app stores to show anything and everything anyone submits? And how does this prevent the open web from continuing? You seem to be upset that people like curation and are drawn to heavily curated App Stores. Meaning that such things gather large audiences. But people can compile and run their own code on the platform. And it has actually gotten easier and cheaper — not more difficult — over time.
- themartorana 11y ago
  I like curation where it ensures a base level of functionality and quality. I don't want ideas curated. I can do that for myself, thank you. I don't need a corporation presuming parental control over me or any other adult.
  - interpol_p 11y ago
    But that's not really up to you, is it? If it's my store, my platform, then I get to decide what products are going to represent my brand. If I was running the Disney store, for example, I would want all my third-party products to be family friendly. It would be crazy for someone to yell "censorship!" because I was disallowing products with mature themes from being sold at my store. This is how shops work: they pick what represents their brand so that customers who like their choices can just walk in and browse their products. Apple wants their App Store to be family friendly. They don't want apps that deal with serious or divisive political issues, they don't want apps which represent them in a bad light, and they don't want apps that are going to shock or horrify their customers. You and I can make these decisions for ourselves. That's why it's great that we can download code from the Internet and build it for our own devices.

jsprogrammer 11y ago

When people demand open content, they will get it. Until then, just keep making the case for open content.

panarky 11y ago

Not all platforms aggressively censor content to benefit the owner of the platform. I can easily use Google search and YouTube to find out how to block Google's own ads[1] and to root Android phones. Google doesn't censor information that hurts Google's interests. Microsoft's Bing has information on how to replace Windows Media Player with free and open alternatives like VLC. Bing even suggests searches to prevent Windows 10 from spying[2]. It is possible to run an ethical platform that doesn't tilt the playing field to the provider of the platform. Apple most definitely does not provide an ethical platform. (By the way, YouTube has a CCC channel[3].) [1] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=block+google+ads https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=block+google+ad... [2] http://imgur.com/K1fGwFt http://imgur.com/K1fGwFt [3] https://www.youtube.com/user/CCCdeVideos https://www.youtube.com/user/CCCdeVideos

kentonv 11y ago
Google banned disconnect.me -- a popular privacy app that blocks various tracking mechanisms (without blocking advertising itself) -- from Android[0]. Apple had no problem with the iOS version. It seems that each big centralized walled garden has their targets. [0] http://www.businessinsider.com/why-google-banned-connect-mobile-2014-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/why-google-banned-connect-mob...
- panarky 11y ago
  > It seems that each big centralized walled garden has their targets. This is false equivalence. Just because you can find an example where Google banned an app does not mean that all platforms are equally unethical. Google Play simply doesn't allow apps that interfere with other apps. That's the reason the disconnect.me app was removed. It's telling that other apps from Disconnect are still available on Google Play. Disconnect Search[1], for example, is contrary to Google's interests, but Google does not ban it because it doesn't interfere with other apps. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=me.disconnect.search https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=me.disconnect....
  - kentonv 11y ago
    > does not mean that all platforms are equally unethical. I would agree that Google is more ethical than Apple, for now. But they still do bad things, and they could easily get worse in the future. We need to move away from this kind of centralization, so that no one has the power to unilaterally gag legitimate content. > Google Play doesn't allow apps that interfere with other apps. Almost every app "interferes" with others in some way. The "no interference" clause seems clearly intended to target interference which was unwanted by the user, but that is not how Google applied it here. If the user expressly intends that the app interfere with other apps, then I think that it is unethical to prohibit them from doing so on their own device. Disconnect is not malware; users install it for exactly the purpose it implements.
    - Natanael_L 11y ago
      Interference here is targeted functional manipulation. Not fifth degree unintended side effects. The user's wish is not considered. There's a reason not a lot Xposed modules are on Google Play. Don't like it? Enable 3rd party sources (a function added by Google!) and install those apps from elsewhere.
      - kentonv 11y ago
        > 3rd party sources (a function added by Google!) It's great that Google allows this. That's one thing that makes them better than Apple (in my opinion). However, it is still the case that being banned from the Play store can kill an app. Few users know how to sideload things. In a world where there are several competing app markets that users can easily switch between, it would not be a big deal for Google to refuse to carry apps they don't like on their market, but when 99% of the users realistically can't get apps anywhere else than Google Play, then it becomes problematic.
pilsetnieks 11y ago
> Google doesn't censor information that hurts Google's interests. I challenge you to find a Chrome extension in the Chrome web store that lets you download Youtube videos. Does Google allow, say, Amazon app store app in the Play store? Apple doesn't have a search engine of it's own so I cannot point you to search results showing how to use other software instead of Apple's but do you really think they would censor the results of a search engine? The comparison is irrelevant. What about that time when Google banned Disconnect from the Play store? [1] Meanwhile Apple actually built a way to create content filters into the OS and actively promotes them in the App Store. I'm not saying that Apple is without fault, certainly not, but neither of the big companies are a shining beacon of enlightenment, and every one of them operates out of self-interest. [1] http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2411562/google-slapped-with-android-antitrust-complaint-over-banned-anti-malware-app http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2411562/google-slap...
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  > I challenge you to find a Chrome extension in the Chrome web store that lets you download Youtube videos. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/search/youtube%20downloader?_category=extensions https://chrome.google.com/webstore/search/youtube%20download...
  - pilsetnieks 11y ago
    You just linked to a search result page where there is only one extension with 57 reviews that purports to be able to do that. It's liable to get pulled if it gets any more popular. Every other app is just a generic video downloader and many explicitly mention that they cannot download youtube videos due to Chrome store restrictions.
    - sangnoir 11y ago
      > It's liable to get pulled if it gets any more popular Seems to me like instead of conceding that your challenge has been met, you are changing the goalposts.
ATsch 11y ago
CCCdeVideos is a) the German Channel. b) not an official Channel. The CCC recommends using their official Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/mediacccde https://www.youtube.com/user/mediacccde
- biafra 11y ago
  Actually they recommend not using Youtube but https://media.ccc.de/ https://media.ccc.de/ instead.

melling 11y ago

Doesn't Android have over %80 market share worldwide? Isn't it open? Where's the nightmare?

atmosx 11y ago

It's not a real problem because 99.9% of the people interested in this sort of things are not going to access this (kind of) content via AppleTV or Apple Store or whatever.

hellbanner 11y ago
This is the ironic part -- are hackers who attend & present at Defcon using AppleTV?

chrstphrhrt 11y ago

I tend to believe that centralization of power will lead to corruption simply by making it more possible/likely. Do you think that something like Ethereum (https://www.ethereum.org https://www.ethereum.org) would enable us to sidestep these kinds of problems, at least on the web? What other ways might we design our systems to be resilient against unethical treatment?

mmastrac 11y ago
> I tend to believe that centralization of power will lead to corruption simply by making it more possible/likely. Completely agree. > Do you think that something like Ethereum (https://www.ethereum.org https://www.ethereum.org) would enable us to sidestep these kinds of problems, at least on the web? Honestly not sure. Part of the problem with the way things work today is that everyone is chasing money -- the next hot app, the next unicorn. That's how FB, Apple and Android attracted people into their walled gardens. As long as we have hungry developers, we are going to have the problem with gardens attracting them.
- jolux 11y ago
  > As long as we have hungry developers, we are going to have the problem with gardens attracting them. That sounds like an argument for libertarian socialism...
  - mmastrac 11y ago
    Alternatively: basic income.
    - jolux 11y ago
      In America those two are synonymous. Well, at least socialism is, probably not anarchism.

tomkin 11y ago

It's funny you say that. I always remark at how god damned similar Facebook is to AOL. Keywords and all.

interpol_p 11y ago

If I was running a store that represented my brand I would make sure every piece of third-party content was curated, showed things that catered to my audience, and minimised my legal liabilities. I would want my store to reflect my brand's values and culture. How is it that we expect app stores to show anything and everything anyone submits? And how does this prevent the open web from continuing? You seem to be upset that people like curation and are drawn to heavily curated App Stores. Meaning that such things gather large audiences. But people can compile and run their own code on the platform. And it has actually gotten easier and cheaper — not more difficult — over time.

themartorana 11y ago
I like curation where it ensures a base level of functionality and quality. I don't want ideas curated. I can do that for myself, thank you. I don't need a corporation presuming parental control over me or any other adult.
- interpol_p 11y ago
  But that's not really up to you, is it? If it's my store, my platform, then I get to decide what products are going to represent my brand. If I was running the Disney store, for example, I would want all my third-party products to be family friendly. It would be crazy for someone to yell "censorship!" because I was disallowing products with mature themes from being sold at my store. This is how shops work: they pick what represents their brand so that customers who like their choices can just walk in and browse their products. Apple wants their App Store to be family friendly. They don't want apps that deal with serious or divisive political issues, they don't want apps which represent them in a bad light, and they don't want apps that are going to shock or horrify their customers. You and I can make these decisions for ourselves. That's why it's great that we can download code from the Internet and build it for our own devices.