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Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

169 points by bko 11y ago

qntty 11y ago
Tuition for the 12-week course in Android development, which was designed by Google's developer training team, is $13,500. The full-time course will be offered in early 2016 at General Assembly's flagship offices in New York and San Francisco and then spread to its 14 locations around the world.
- peter303 11y ago
  Maybe analyze this as a one-year payback. I've that miny who gone from minimal to medium skills via academies get a salary increase of about this amount. You also can write some of this off on taxes.
  - BinaryIdiot 11y ago
    > You also can write some of this off on taxes. You can? I thought it had to be a very specific, accredited school for that.
- Hortinstein 11y ago
  meanwhile I am paying ~$8,000 for a full computer science masters from GA Tech (OMSCS). Different class of education, but I feel like I am getting a better deal.
  - copperx 11y ago
    How hard was it to get accepted into the program?
    - Hortinstein 11y ago
      I graduated from a mediocre school with a 2.99 GPA with a computer science BS. I have great work experience and had great letters of recommendation. I can email you with more details. I applied when it first opened for applications. I was not admitted. Two session later they reached out and mentioned that my application was flagged for re-evaluation and asked if I was interested. I said I was and a few months later I was accepted. It is a great program, I highly recommend it.
  - el_benhameen 11y ago
    Slightly off-topic, but do most members of your cohort have academic backgrounds in CS? I'm interested in the program, but have a non-CS bachelor's plus work experience in development, and I'm not sure if it's worth my time to apply.
    - Hortinstein 11y ago
      I have heard of people from all backgrounds getting into the program. Totally worth your time. Many questions like this on https://www.reddit.com/r/omscs https://www.reddit.com/r/omscs .
roymurdock 11y ago
Can anyone in the app development world speak to whether or not there actually is a shortage of Android devs? Or is Google just trying to spark innovation by getting more engineers into the Android ecosystem?
- bko 11y ago
  I'm not from that world but I noticed that I read a new article every few months that iOS App Store is continuing to gain a larger and larger share of app store revenue. Perhaps Google is worried about declining developer attention focus on developing for the Android platform. Network effects make markets like the app store a winner take all (more or less) Latest article: iOS App Store Revenue Now 80 Percent Higher Than Google Play, Thanks To China http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/15/ios-app-store-revenue-now-80-percent-higher-than-google-play-thanks-to-china/ http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/15/ios-app-store-revenue-now-8...
- burritofanatic 11y ago
  In my opinion, there is. Android is more difficult to program for. The programming environment itself can present itself as a challenge, and working with all the different Android versions can be a pain compared to iOS. It's a weird catch-22 as folks just end up going iOS only first as a result.
- kin 11y ago
  There is definitely a shortage of Android devs, especially domestic in the U.S. Haven't even been able to get a resume come in that isn't from overseas.
- jaegerpicker 11y ago
  There is a shortage of mobile developers across the board and a greater Android dev shortage in my experience. A bootcamp is certainly NOT the answer to that. Mobile dev even more then web development requires a level of experience and tech knowledge that is not possible to gain in 12 weeks.
- stevenmays 11y ago
  If there is a shortage of mobile devs have wages correspondingly risen? I'm sure if wages rise, more devs will learn it and fill that gap.
code_monster 11y ago
So the amount of the existing developers are not enough!!
- bdcravens 11y ago
  No, the existing set of developers, with a specific set of skills, that are willing to work for junior level pay, is not enough for Google.
notsony 11y ago
What does Google do with developers who are 40 or 50? What does age diversity look like at Google for engineering staff? Sooner or later this issue is going to come to a head when all the 20-30-something year old Javascript hackers grow older...
- racl101 11y ago
  Work at Walmart?
- peter303 11y ago
  Some of my 1970s MIT classmates have been working at google for a years. But I suspect that era is under presented.
  - ASinclair 11y ago
    There are just a lot more young people studying Computer Science now as opposed to the 1970s since computers are ubiquitous now. So of course that era is underrepresented.
- skizm 11y ago
  I interviewed at Google. Didn't get the gig, but while I was in the office, it did seem like their engineers were mostly 30+ somethings. I didn't see a lot engineers there that looked like fresh grads. I know more than half the engineers working there interview two or more times before getting an offer. Google, and most larger tech companies, optimize their hiring process to aggressively deny candidates if they aren't a slam dunk. The negatives that come from hiring a bad engineer far outweigh the positives that come from hiring a good engineer. Not saying there isn't an age bias, just not an obvious one I noticed.
  - notsony 11y ago
    Has Google released any numbers regarding the age composition of their workforce? They have for race and gender.
  - walshemj 11y ago
eshem 11y ago
Seems more like General Assembly is launching a bootcamp with the guidance of Google.
- archmikhail 11y ago
  Yea but that title wouldn't get as many clicks.
_lex 11y ago
One of the most basic rules of doing extraordinarily well in business - Commoditize your complements. Google's hope here is to drive the cost of android developers down, while driving the number of android devs up.
ljk 11y ago
Isn't it more important to focus on the concepts like discrete math, data structures/algorithm, OS, etc? Is it really beneficial for there to be a surplus of programmers who only learned how to use libraries?
- random_rr 11y ago
  There are engineers that work on the highest level of machinery - NASA, F1, robotics, etc - and there are mechanics who maintain and service the vast fleet of personal automobiles in the world. The Jiffy Lube mechanics may not be able to map out the physics of combustion and motion, but they can fix your broken suspension arm. An advanced degree is not necessary for all forms of trade.
  - walshemj 11y ago
    A lot of F1 guys will have BSc's - there is even a University in the UK that runs Degree programs for the f1 market
- sotojuan 11y ago
  > Is it really beneficial for there to be a surplus of programmers who only learned how to use libraries? Of course, then you can pay them less.
laveur 11y ago
I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to everyone. And to me are just a scam.
- 2sk21 11y ago
  Fully agree. Learning the syntax of a programming language (which is about all you can hope to learn in a bootcamp) is just the first step in becoming a programmer.
- throwaway13337 11y ago
  Being a software developer in the modern world (web, mobile) has little to do with computer science. These skills can be taught but aren't in most modern universities. Mostly, there is argument that university is not vocational training. At the same time, most people implicitly feel the need to go to university to get a job. These developer boot camps create a new path. It's a good thing.
  - santaclaus 11y ago
    Which is funny, as those exact Computer Sciencey type questions are what Google likes to throw at candidates.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Excellent point. If you want to waste 4-6 years of your life on theory, go to college. Bootcamp it or learn yourself if you want to spend 6-18 months learning and then jump into a junior position to get real experience (and get paid for it). EDIT: See my post further down for clarification on this idea. I shot this comment from the hip a bit too fast.
    - eropple 11y ago
pjmlp 11y ago
But will they learn how to invert a tree on the whiteboard?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tcdent 11y ago
This is a course on developing Android apps, not for preparing you to work at Google, which most of the discussion here seems to miss. Students should most definitely be able to write a decent app after a class like this. Interface and backend communication aren't that hard, nor to they require an engineering background. Engineering problems, UX design, etc. are all likely beyond scope. It's important to identify where on 'the scale' this lies: Google creates advanced tools that allow people to develop products using simpler concepts. This program targets the latter audience, which is a sensible business decision.
my9cents 11y ago
This is great. There are several such bootcamps around, some of which have had great success with getting people set up in Jr. Positions. With a big Corp like Google behind the idea, it certainly sets a precedence -- and in a way, some leverage for people interested in the idea. Personally I'm currently 20 years old, and I'm studying and working at the moment. I intend to self-learn, to enable to to get a Jr dev position as well. Even with a 20% chance of success, the risk is worth it considering the off-trade of debt and 3 years for a bachelor. Does anyone have any input on whether it's viable or not? What would you require from someone self taught, to hire them?
bphogan 11y ago
edits to correct typos made on my phone. I am skeptical of developer bootcamps because they often aren't open enrollment. You generally have to have the aptitude and background to get through their admissions process and interview. That weeds out some people right away. They are right to have this admissions process, because if you let everyone in, lots of people won't make it, and then the promise of good paying jobs is much more hard to advertise. Let's not forget that it does favor a certain type of people over others; namely people who have grown up in an environment that teaches them how to learn. Most people on HN know how to learn on their own and see value in bootcamps because they feel that candidates from bootcamps can learn the material easily. But folks, that's not everyone. A lot of people don't like school. They aren't good at it, or they had bad experiences, etc. And a lot of people transitioning into software development have been trained for many years to do what they were told, so they have to develop those critical thinking skills. I think these people have a harder time making it through the application processes for some of these camps. And that's a shame. I would be 100% behind an immersive bootcamp experience that had an open enrollment process. I work at a school that has that right now, and we do have lots of people who don't make it very far. But we have many more that go from minimum wage to doing very, very well for themselves and their families. If I had those students for 12 weeks straight where they could learn and apply through immersion, oh man, the things we could do together!
- confuseddotcom 11y ago
  > That weeds on some people right away. > people who have grown up around how to learn Neither of these phrases makes any sense.
  - mhink 11y ago
    Oh, come on. It's clear enough from context what the parent means: "that weeds out some people right away". The latter phrase could be rephrased as "people who have grown up in an environment which taught them how to learn".
  - mbrameld 11y ago
    You honestly couldn't figure out what those mean?
lizmrush 11y ago
So Google gets diversity points for helping non-traditional students access the technology (thought they still pay 13k for it themselves) but will hold no liability if they don't succeed? Cheaper PR than an actual training program, I suppose.
mushroomfractal 11y ago
I've been looking at different boot camps and it's a bit interesting to me that even though afaik bootcamps are unregulated, they all seem to cost ~15k with 12-week courses. Do anyone know it's that the case? I'd expect more diversity in a nascent sector. Btw, I'm an electrical engineer and I want to move to web development, do you guys have any tips on what would be the best bootcamp?
- dreaminvm 11y ago
  I am self taught but I've interviewed a few bootcampers from SF bootcamps that knew nothing aside from boilerplate Ruby code. If I were you I'd save the 5 figure fees and go through the python (learnpythonthehardway.org) and Django (learnpythonthehardway.org/book/next.html) tutorials.
gotchange 11y ago
I am skeptical too of their claim that graduates will be valuable and employment ready as soon as they finish this program. Maybe this is true for the best of class but for the rest, I don't think so. The best that they could achieve is that a company would present those exceptional graduates with an apprenticeship offer under a probationary period, roughly 6 months or longer, but with a fast-track path to full employment based on on-the-job performance, but to promise someone that, to the effect, that once you immerse yourself for 12 weeks in our boot camp and then make it and graduate successfully, your productivity will match that of other professional developers who are more experienced or knowledgeable in the field is overly unrealistic and misleading.
Dwolb 11y ago
I'm missing something here. What is tying Karma and Vice Media to General Assembly to Google? Here's my logic: Too few developers are developing on Android as there are few profits to be had. As a result, the Android eco-system is not sufficiently valuable to customers willing to pay for apps. To break this cycle, Android wishes to attack the supply issue and raise the value of the platform via working with groups to train more Android developers. Google is partnering with General Assembly on this initiative because of their experience running bootcamps. Karma and Vice are willing to hire every programmer because they're short on developers? This is where I'm tripped up. Can Karma and Vice not find a sufficient number of Android developers? Or are they unwilling to pay enough to compete for talent? Are developers lured into GA's pipeline to find higher paying jobs? Is the $13.5k tuition not subsidized by Google or Karma and Vice to filter for 'serious' developers?
itslennysfault 11y ago
To all the skeptics... I spent a year teaching the web development immersive program at General Assembly. I felt skeptical about the program too, but I always wanted to try teaching so I thought it was worth a go. by the way, I'd recommend it to anyone. It's a great way to take a break from dev work and teach the next generation of developers. It is extremely rewarding to watch people go from next to zero knowledge to being able to build functional apps, and they are always looking for new instructors. So, does it work? Admissions - We did have a fairly high admissions bar (as to not waste anyones time or money), but the bar was really about motivation and ability to learn the basics (they have to do some basic html / css). The program is VERY fast and demanding and people need to be able to do nothing but code for 3 months. Their personal life gets put on hold and they live, breath, and eat code. Completion - Every class I taught had exactly one student drop toward the beginning, but outside of that everyone that started the program made it through (thanks in part to the admissions process). Outcome - Every student that finished the program and actively tried to find work got a job. Each class (of 20+ people) had a couple people that decided to do something else with their lives, but everyone that decided they wanted a job in development got one. I can't speak for all "boot camp" programs, but I can say that the program that I taught was very effective and IMO people got a great return on their investment. These views are my own and don't reflect the views of General Assembly or Google, blah, blah, etc.. (edits to fix typos and some re-organization)
- cfreeman 11y ago
  Which GA did you work at? I have a friend that went to the one in Santa Monica and had a bad experience. Of course, he did eventually get a job as a developer afterwards so I guess it could've been worse. I went to a bootcamp recently and when I was picking my school I remember the reviews for GA varying a lot from location to location.
  - itslennysfault 11y ago
    I taught in Seattle. I actually read a bunch of reviews before applying and noticed the same trend. I think the quality of the actual instructors plays a huge role which reflects on each markets ability to hire top talent with adequate industry experience. I've met Instructors from all over and from what I can tell it seems like GA generally does a great job at hiring, but being in 14 different cities there is bound to be some variance. My advice to anyone considering any immersive program would be to meet/vet the actual instructor(s) teaching your particular cohort.
redbluff 11y ago
My first impulse is like a lot of people to be fairly skeptical. Then I cast my memories back to when I started, and this is how a lot of big companies got their developers. You took the IBM Data Processing aptitude test and if you did OK, the company inducted you into a trainee programmer role and you were sent on a course and got your PL/I book. You then spent 6 months working with the senior programmer gaining experience and making small patches and then eventually moved into a journeyman status. Basically it was an apprenticeship for coders. Some stayed at that level, some quit, others would then do a combined CS with Computer Systems Engineering degree and get honours :-). The point is that it gave people a look in at the ground floor - people who gained value for their company who never would have had the chance in a world where the only way to open the door is a degree. So despite my initial skepticism, I think there can be a place for things like this. In the end it depends how it is used. If it is to get people to pay money for a worthless course, then that is not great. However, if people can get placements as part of the gig, and they are treated effectively as apprentices, then it opens doors to a little more diverse crew than we are getting at the moment, and that's a good thing.
- kotojo 11y ago
  I actually just went through General Assembly's Web Development Immersive course and finished in July. I'm in a similar situation to that. I learned HTML/CSS/JS, then ruby on rails and MEAN stack. After I finished I was at the point to know enough to know I don't really know much of anything, and got hired into an apprenticeship program a local company was running, even though the majority of the stack I learned at GA isn't even used. He hired me with the knowledge that I am teachable and willing to learn. Everyone but one person from our cohort now also has a development job. General Assembly at least does a ton to make sure you are prepared to fight your way into the job market. The only thing I am worried about is what the market will look like for people coming from bootcamps 5 to 10 years down the line. Is this going to start to bring out the people opening ma and pops bootcamp to get a quick buck?
  - pcunite 11y ago
    When everyone became a photographer it brought confusion to the market. However, this seems to have settled down and stabilized now. I guess something similar will take place when everyone becomes a programmer.
bcx 11y ago
I feel like a better title for this article on HN would be "General Assembly partners with Google to create bootcamp for Android Developers" The current title implies two things: 1) That Google is creating this bootcamp on it's own 2) Google is hiring the developers As written it's pretty linkbaity. I am not even sure if they are promising jobs in any literal sense "General Assembly has said in a statement that it will connect developers who finish the course with jobs in its hiring network". To be clear I am a big fan of GA and bootcamps in general, I just feel that the title of this article is misleading.
yeukhon 11y ago
FYI, there is a 12-month engagement with Google similar to the idea of boot camp, in which you will work for Google and get paid, and possibly getting a full time offer afterward.
xacaxulu 11y ago
Every time I see a new Hacker School or something, I make a note of the technology they are teaching (Rails / Android) and slowly walk the other way, technologically speaking. I get the impression that companies are really tired of paying solid 6 figure salaries to devs. For now I'll just keep on focusing on newer, harder more niche things to stay in high demand.

169 points by bko 11y ago

qntty 11y ago

Tuition for the 12-week course in Android development, which was designed by Google's developer training team, is $13,500. The full-time course will be offered in early 2016 at General Assembly's flagship offices in New York and San Francisco and then spread to its 14 locations around the world.

peter303 11y ago
Maybe analyze this as a one-year payback. I've that miny who gone from minimal to medium skills via academies get a salary increase of about this amount. You also can write some of this off on taxes.
- BinaryIdiot 11y ago
  > You also can write some of this off on taxes. You can? I thought it had to be a very specific, accredited school for that.
Hortinstein 11y ago
meanwhile I am paying ~$8,000 for a full computer science masters from GA Tech (OMSCS). Different class of education, but I feel like I am getting a better deal.
- copperx 11y ago
  How hard was it to get accepted into the program?
  - Hortinstein 11y ago
    I graduated from a mediocre school with a 2.99 GPA with a computer science BS. I have great work experience and had great letters of recommendation. I can email you with more details. I applied when it first opened for applications. I was not admitted. Two session later they reached out and mentioned that my application was flagged for re-evaluation and asked if I was interested. I said I was and a few months later I was accepted. It is a great program, I highly recommend it.
- el_benhameen 11y ago
  Slightly off-topic, but do most members of your cohort have academic backgrounds in CS? I'm interested in the program, but have a non-CS bachelor's plus work experience in development, and I'm not sure if it's worth my time to apply.
  - Hortinstein 11y ago
    I have heard of people from all backgrounds getting into the program. Totally worth your time. Many questions like this on https://www.reddit.com/r/omscs https://www.reddit.com/r/omscs .

roymurdock 11y ago

Can anyone in the app development world speak to whether or not there actually is a shortage of Android devs? Or is Google just trying to spark innovation by getting more engineers into the Android ecosystem?

bko 11y ago
I'm not from that world but I noticed that I read a new article every few months that iOS App Store is continuing to gain a larger and larger share of app store revenue. Perhaps Google is worried about declining developer attention focus on developing for the Android platform. Network effects make markets like the app store a winner take all (more or less) Latest article: iOS App Store Revenue Now 80 Percent Higher Than Google Play, Thanks To China http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/15/ios-app-store-revenue-now-80-percent-higher-than-google-play-thanks-to-china/ http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/15/ios-app-store-revenue-now-8...
burritofanatic 11y ago
In my opinion, there is. Android is more difficult to program for. The programming environment itself can present itself as a challenge, and working with all the different Android versions can be a pain compared to iOS. It's a weird catch-22 as folks just end up going iOS only first as a result.
kin 11y ago
There is definitely a shortage of Android devs, especially domestic in the U.S. Haven't even been able to get a resume come in that isn't from overseas.
jaegerpicker 11y ago
There is a shortage of mobile developers across the board and a greater Android dev shortage in my experience. A bootcamp is certainly NOT the answer to that. Mobile dev even more then web development requires a level of experience and tech knowledge that is not possible to gain in 12 weeks.
stevenmays 11y ago
If there is a shortage of mobile devs have wages correspondingly risen? I'm sure if wages rise, more devs will learn it and fill that gap.

code_monster 11y ago

So the amount of the existing developers are not enough!!

bdcravens 11y ago
No, the existing set of developers, with a specific set of skills, that are willing to work for junior level pay, is not enough for Google.

notsony 11y ago

What does Google do with developers who are 40 or 50? What does age diversity look like at Google for engineering staff? Sooner or later this issue is going to come to a head when all the 20-30-something year old Javascript hackers grow older...

racl101 11y ago
Work at Walmart?
peter303 11y ago
Some of my 1970s MIT classmates have been working at google for a years. But I suspect that era is under presented.
- ASinclair 11y ago
  There are just a lot more young people studying Computer Science now as opposed to the 1970s since computers are ubiquitous now. So of course that era is underrepresented.
skizm 11y ago
I interviewed at Google. Didn't get the gig, but while I was in the office, it did seem like their engineers were mostly 30+ somethings. I didn't see a lot engineers there that looked like fresh grads. I know more than half the engineers working there interview two or more times before getting an offer. Google, and most larger tech companies, optimize their hiring process to aggressively deny candidates if they aren't a slam dunk. The negatives that come from hiring a bad engineer far outweigh the positives that come from hiring a good engineer. Not saying there isn't an age bias, just not an obvious one I noticed.
- notsony 11y ago
  Has Google released any numbers regarding the age composition of their workforce? They have for race and gender.
- walshemj 11y ago

eshem 11y ago

Seems more like General Assembly is launching a bootcamp with the guidance of Google.

archmikhail 11y ago
Yea but that title wouldn't get as many clicks.

_lex 11y ago

One of the most basic rules of doing extraordinarily well in business - Commoditize your complements. Google's hope here is to drive the cost of android developers down, while driving the number of android devs up.

ljk 11y ago

Isn't it more important to focus on the concepts like discrete math, data structures/algorithm, OS, etc? Is it really beneficial for there to be a surplus of programmers who only learned how to use libraries?

random_rr 11y ago
There are engineers that work on the highest level of machinery - NASA, F1, robotics, etc - and there are mechanics who maintain and service the vast fleet of personal automobiles in the world. The Jiffy Lube mechanics may not be able to map out the physics of combustion and motion, but they can fix your broken suspension arm. An advanced degree is not necessary for all forms of trade.
- walshemj 11y ago
  A lot of F1 guys will have BSc's - there is even a University in the UK that runs Degree programs for the f1 market
sotojuan 11y ago
> Is it really beneficial for there to be a surplus of programmers who only learned how to use libraries? Of course, then you can pay them less.

laveur 11y ago

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to everyone. And to me are just a scam.

2sk21 11y ago
Fully agree. Learning the syntax of a programming language (which is about all you can hope to learn in a bootcamp) is just the first step in becoming a programmer.
throwaway13337 11y ago
Being a software developer in the modern world (web, mobile) has little to do with computer science. These skills can be taught but aren't in most modern universities. Mostly, there is argument that university is not vocational training. At the same time, most people implicitly feel the need to go to university to get a job. These developer boot camps create a new path. It's a good thing.
- santaclaus 11y ago
  Which is funny, as those exact Computer Sciencey type questions are what Google likes to throw at candidates.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Excellent point. If you want to waste 4-6 years of your life on theory, go to college. Bootcamp it or learn yourself if you want to spend 6-18 months learning and then jump into a junior position to get real experience (and get paid for it). EDIT: See my post further down for clarification on this idea. I shot this comment from the hip a bit too fast.
  - eropple 11y ago

pjmlp 11y ago

But will they learn how to invert a tree on the whiteboard?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

tcdent 11y ago

This is a course on developing Android apps, not for preparing you to work at Google, which most of the discussion here seems to miss. Students should most definitely be able to write a decent app after a class like this. Interface and backend communication aren't that hard, nor to they require an engineering background. Engineering problems, UX design, etc. are all likely beyond scope. It's important to identify where on 'the scale' this lies: Google creates advanced tools that allow people to develop products using simpler concepts. This program targets the latter audience, which is a sensible business decision.

my9cents 11y ago

This is great. There are several such bootcamps around, some of which have had great success with getting people set up in Jr. Positions. With a big Corp like Google behind the idea, it certainly sets a precedence -- and in a way, some leverage for people interested in the idea. Personally I'm currently 20 years old, and I'm studying and working at the moment. I intend to self-learn, to enable to to get a Jr dev position as well. Even with a 20% chance of success, the risk is worth it considering the off-trade of debt and 3 years for a bachelor. Does anyone have any input on whether it's viable or not? What would you require from someone self taught, to hire them?

bphogan 11y ago

edits to correct typos made on my phone. I am skeptical of developer bootcamps because they often aren't open enrollment. You generally have to have the aptitude and background to get through their admissions process and interview. That weeds out some people right away. They are right to have this admissions process, because if you let everyone in, lots of people won't make it, and then the promise of good paying jobs is much more hard to advertise. Let's not forget that it does favor a certain type of people over others; namely people who have grown up in an environment that teaches them how to learn. Most people on HN know how to learn on their own and see value in bootcamps because they feel that candidates from bootcamps can learn the material easily. But folks, that's not everyone. A lot of people don't like school. They aren't good at it, or they had bad experiences, etc. And a lot of people transitioning into software development have been trained for many years to do what they were told, so they have to develop those critical thinking skills. I think these people have a harder time making it through the application processes for some of these camps. And that's a shame. I would be 100% behind an immersive bootcamp experience that had an open enrollment process. I work at a school that has that right now, and we do have lots of people who don't make it very far. But we have many more that go from minimum wage to doing very, very well for themselves and their families. If I had those students for 12 weeks straight where they could learn and apply through immersion, oh man, the things we could do together!

confuseddotcom 11y ago
> That weeds on some people right away. > people who have grown up around how to learn Neither of these phrases makes any sense.
- mhink 11y ago
  Oh, come on. It's clear enough from context what the parent means: "that weeds out some people right away". The latter phrase could be rephrased as "people who have grown up in an environment which taught them how to learn".
- mbrameld 11y ago
  You honestly couldn't figure out what those mean?

lizmrush 11y ago

So Google gets diversity points for helping non-traditional students access the technology (thought they still pay 13k for it themselves) but will hold no liability if they don't succeed? Cheaper PR than an actual training program, I suppose.

mushroomfractal 11y ago

I've been looking at different boot camps and it's a bit interesting to me that even though afaik bootcamps are unregulated, they all seem to cost ~15k with 12-week courses. Do anyone know it's that the case? I'd expect more diversity in a nascent sector. Btw, I'm an electrical engineer and I want to move to web development, do you guys have any tips on what would be the best bootcamp?

dreaminvm 11y ago
I am self taught but I've interviewed a few bootcampers from SF bootcamps that knew nothing aside from boilerplate Ruby code. If I were you I'd save the 5 figure fees and go through the python (learnpythonthehardway.org) and Django (learnpythonthehardway.org/book/next.html) tutorials.

gotchange 11y ago

I am skeptical too of their claim that graduates will be valuable and employment ready as soon as they finish this program. Maybe this is true for the best of class but for the rest, I don't think so. The best that they could achieve is that a company would present those exceptional graduates with an apprenticeship offer under a probationary period, roughly 6 months or longer, but with a fast-track path to full employment based on on-the-job performance, but to promise someone that, to the effect, that once you immerse yourself for 12 weeks in our boot camp and then make it and graduate successfully, your productivity will match that of other professional developers who are more experienced or knowledgeable in the field is overly unrealistic and misleading.

Dwolb 11y ago

I'm missing something here. What is tying Karma and Vice Media to General Assembly to Google? Here's my logic: Too few developers are developing on Android as there are few profits to be had. As a result, the Android eco-system is not sufficiently valuable to customers willing to pay for apps. To break this cycle, Android wishes to attack the supply issue and raise the value of the platform via working with groups to train more Android developers. Google is partnering with General Assembly on this initiative because of their experience running bootcamps. Karma and Vice are willing to hire every programmer because they're short on developers? This is where I'm tripped up. Can Karma and Vice not find a sufficient number of Android developers? Or are they unwilling to pay enough to compete for talent? Are developers lured into GA's pipeline to find higher paying jobs? Is the $13.5k tuition not subsidized by Google or Karma and Vice to filter for 'serious' developers?

itslennysfault 11y ago

To all the skeptics... I spent a year teaching the web development immersive program at General Assembly. I felt skeptical about the program too, but I always wanted to try teaching so I thought it was worth a go. by the way, I'd recommend it to anyone. It's a great way to take a break from dev work and teach the next generation of developers. It is extremely rewarding to watch people go from next to zero knowledge to being able to build functional apps, and they are always looking for new instructors. So, does it work? Admissions - We did have a fairly high admissions bar (as to not waste anyones time or money), but the bar was really about motivation and ability to learn the basics (they have to do some basic html / css). The program is VERY fast and demanding and people need to be able to do nothing but code for 3 months. Their personal life gets put on hold and they live, breath, and eat code. Completion - Every class I taught had exactly one student drop toward the beginning, but outside of that everyone that started the program made it through (thanks in part to the admissions process). Outcome - Every student that finished the program and actively tried to find work got a job. Each class (of 20+ people) had a couple people that decided to do something else with their lives, but everyone that decided they wanted a job in development got one. I can't speak for all "boot camp" programs, but I can say that the program that I taught was very effective and IMO people got a great return on their investment. These views are my own and don't reflect the views of General Assembly or Google, blah, blah, etc.. (edits to fix typos and some re-organization)

cfreeman 11y ago
Which GA did you work at? I have a friend that went to the one in Santa Monica and had a bad experience. Of course, he did eventually get a job as a developer afterwards so I guess it could've been worse. I went to a bootcamp recently and when I was picking my school I remember the reviews for GA varying a lot from location to location.
- itslennysfault 11y ago
  I taught in Seattle. I actually read a bunch of reviews before applying and noticed the same trend. I think the quality of the actual instructors plays a huge role which reflects on each markets ability to hire top talent with adequate industry experience. I've met Instructors from all over and from what I can tell it seems like GA generally does a great job at hiring, but being in 14 different cities there is bound to be some variance. My advice to anyone considering any immersive program would be to meet/vet the actual instructor(s) teaching your particular cohort.

redbluff 11y ago

My first impulse is like a lot of people to be fairly skeptical. Then I cast my memories back to when I started, and this is how a lot of big companies got their developers. You took the IBM Data Processing aptitude test and if you did OK, the company inducted you into a trainee programmer role and you were sent on a course and got your PL/I book. You then spent 6 months working with the senior programmer gaining experience and making small patches and then eventually moved into a journeyman status. Basically it was an apprenticeship for coders. Some stayed at that level, some quit, others would then do a combined CS with Computer Systems Engineering degree and get honours :-). The point is that it gave people a look in at the ground floor - people who gained value for their company who never would have had the chance in a world where the only way to open the door is a degree. So despite my initial skepticism, I think there can be a place for things like this. In the end it depends how it is used. If it is to get people to pay money for a worthless course, then that is not great. However, if people can get placements as part of the gig, and they are treated effectively as apprentices, then it opens doors to a little more diverse crew than we are getting at the moment, and that's a good thing.

kotojo 11y ago
I actually just went through General Assembly's Web Development Immersive course and finished in July. I'm in a similar situation to that. I learned HTML/CSS/JS, then ruby on rails and MEAN stack. After I finished I was at the point to know enough to know I don't really know much of anything, and got hired into an apprenticeship program a local company was running, even though the majority of the stack I learned at GA isn't even used. He hired me with the knowledge that I am teachable and willing to learn. Everyone but one person from our cohort now also has a development job. General Assembly at least does a ton to make sure you are prepared to fight your way into the job market. The only thing I am worried about is what the market will look like for people coming from bootcamps 5 to 10 years down the line. Is this going to start to bring out the people opening ma and pops bootcamp to get a quick buck?
- pcunite 11y ago
  When everyone became a photographer it brought confusion to the market. However, this seems to have settled down and stabilized now. I guess something similar will take place when everyone becomes a programmer.

bcx 11y ago

I feel like a better title for this article on HN would be "General Assembly partners with Google to create bootcamp for Android Developers" The current title implies two things: 1) That Google is creating this bootcamp on it's own 2) Google is hiring the developers As written it's pretty linkbaity. I am not even sure if they are promising jobs in any literal sense "General Assembly has said in a statement that it will connect developers who finish the course with jobs in its hiring network". To be clear I am a big fan of GA and bootcamps in general, I just feel that the title of this article is misleading.

yeukhon 11y ago

FYI, there is a 12-month engagement with Google similar to the idea of boot camp, in which you will work for Google and get paid, and possibly getting a full time offer afterward.

xacaxulu 11y ago

Every time I see a new Hacker School or something, I make a note of the technology they are teaching (Rails / Android) and slowly walk the other way, technologically speaking. I get the impression that companies are really tired of paying solid 6 figure salaries to devs. For now I'll just keep on focusing on newer, harder more niche things to stay in high demand.