4 ms·

Social Tips for Geeks

18 points by nopinsight 17y ago

Rod 17y ago
I was positively surprised by this article. Much better than I anticipated... It's good to remind myself that in social gatherings what matters is not what is being discussed, but rather how it is being discussed. I used to hate small-talk because I thought I learned nothing while doing it, but then I realized that small-talk is not an exchange of verbal information, but rather a way to categorize and label strangers, and to find common ground that may lead to less superficial discussion. Once I figured that out, small-talk became a challenge: if you know the rules of the game, you can play it to your advantage.
jimbokun 17y ago
A good summary seems to be "Just keep your mouth shut." And I don't think that is very good advice. It's not much different than avoiding all social gatherings altogether.
- Rod 17y ago
  Keeping one's mouth shut is actually great advice! The less one says, the less one has the chance to screw up. Is this the same as avoiding social gatherings? I don't think so. You can keep your mouth shut and cause good impression by being a good listener. Let's face it: most people like to talk more than they like to listen. While at a social event, you can quickly study the people you're talking to, try to figure what motivates them, and then ask carefully-thought questions that will make them talk for hours. You don't need to pay attention to what they say, you merely need to give the impression that you do. Listening enough so you can ask more questions is always a good idea. If you keep a good posture and obey the rules of etiquette, you can go through a party without talking at all, and people will perceive you as a polite person, a good listener, a gentleman. Most social gatherings are work, they're not supposed to be fun. They're not meant to be relaxing. Stay frosty and don't be yourself under any circumstances.
mtrimpe 17y ago
This should be called: "How to still get invited to a few parties without enjoying them, but at least knowing you're not going to make a total ass out of yourself." Not that I've figured it all out or anything, but I'm sure tips like learning to control your body, voice and emotional state, listening intently and making sure that the insightful analysis of our everyday world you can provide will actually enrich people's lives would be far better advice.
chasingsparks 17y ago
Being awkward and being geeky is not the same thing. Talking about what you enjoy is not awkward. Talking down to people who don't follow your field of interest is offensive and silly. Telling people about your passion -- if they ask -- is not a bad thing. Sometimes you are forced into situations where you must "play some social game," but even in those situations, being yourself is usually a better strategy. Sometimes socializing is a weird prisoners dilemma -- but with many repeated trials.
edw519 17y ago
1. Recognize that people will know you are a geek from the moment they meet you Assume nothing. If you're not sure about something, ask. Give the other person the benefit of the doubt at least once. 2. Don't try to change people's preconceived notions of geeks Don't try to change anything about anyone else. Just be yourself and engage them. 3. Don't get too comfortable and start being yourself Always be yourself. Who else are you going to be? And who is going to be you? 4. Try to talk as little as possible, and when you do speak, only ask superficial questions Take advantage of this excellent opportunity to engage with other people. Learning is maximized for everyone when all talk and listen. 5. But don't ask questions about things that normal people should know How else would you know what's "normal" unless you ask? 6. Temporarily let go of the urge to achieve absolute precision in speaking Sometimes absolute precision is exactly what's needed to improve communication. The trick is to know when. Learning when comes from practice. 7. Don't correct anyone even when they're incorrect or imprecise Again, the trick is in judging context, which comes from practice. If they said they did something a million times, obviously no correction is needed. If they're giving instructions on defusing a live bomb, then you better correct them. 8. Don't use words that an 8th grader doesn't understand Again, how would you know? Be yourself, say what you mean, and learn from the feedback. 9. If somebody asks you about your job or hobbies, answer in one sentence Answer in as many sentences as you deem appropriate. You're probably a pretty smart person. Exercise you judgement, which will become stronger just as if you exercised your biceps. 10. If everyone around is enjoying the ambient music, background live performance, etc., don't jump in with any analysis Why not? Sometimes the most interesting conversations get started this way. Again, your judgement is way more important than OP's rules. 11. Never start a sentence with "Did you know that ..." Sames as #10. 12. Never start a sentence with "You should really ..." Probably better stated as, "Only give advice when it's asked for." I'd prefer this simple list of social tips: 1. Be yourself. Being rejected by someone else for being yourself is a self-correcting problem. They just saved both of you lots of time and energy. 2. Treat others how you'd like to be treated. 3. If you spend lots of time alone, take advantage of an opportunity to be with others by engaging and learning. 4. Use your best judgement (That's what it's there for.) 5. Have fun. 6. Take any list of rules with the word "actionable" with a grain of salt.
- thetrumanshow 17y ago
simon_ 17y ago
The tips about not being overbearing (correcting people, giving them unwanted advice) are well taken, but in many circles - especially the ones you actually want to be in - your natural geekiness will be highly valued. I swear that, at least in parts of SF and NY (not trying to push geographic stereotypes, these are just the places I have personal experience), geekiness is even cool. If you work too hard hiding it, you will have trouble finding these places.
- pgbovine 17y ago
  totally agreed (see my comment one level above) ... these 'tips' are only for when you're stuck in a social situation where geekiness is NOT cool! if you're hanging out at start-up parties or YC meet-ups and follow these tips, then everyone else will think you're a tool ;)
pgbovine 17y ago
this is the author here ... yes, i know this article sounds half-retarded, but let me try to provide some context: i'm not saying that you should always be a phony and hide your true self --- these so-called 'tips' are only for when you have to attend some boring but mandatory social occasion and don't want to stand out in any way. obviously it's stupid to try to purposely get yourself invited to posh parties and then follow these 'tips' and remain stone-silent. Edit: and then there's the issue of whether you actually want to stand out or to blend in ... i have friends in both categories: some are willing to be more quiet and blend into the background in these occasions, while others are ultra-proud to display their geekiness and don't give a crap what other people think. i suspect many people here fall in the latter category, and thus are gonna think my article is utter trash :)
- Rod 17y ago
  Those who don't care what other people think only attract antagonism. Those who are liked (and, consequently, invited again to such social events) are those who make other people feel good, and the best way of making other people feel good is to make them feel important. This works for office politics, and it works for dates, as well. Personally, I think your article is quite good. Maybe some on HN think it's crap, but this forum is populated by people who (wrongly) think they're too smart to have to play petty politics...
- edw519 17y ago
  Hi pgbovine. Thanks for your post and thanks for your visit here to the discussion. I sure wish more authors would engage us like you are doing now. I do not think your article is utter trash, I just disagree with much of it. I was one of the first to pounce on it with my other post in this thread, which I have since editted to show you the respect you deserve even though I still fundamentally disagree with your premise. A few additional thoughts: No one is "just a geek". We are all very complex beings with lots of other ways to describe us. Following a list of "rules for geeks" drops us to an unnecessary lowest common denominator. Sometimes, the only difference between "surviving this social function" and "learning something in the next hour that may change my life" is mindset. A postive mindset is often best achieved by ignoring many of your rules. Nothing is mandatory. No one really has to do anything they don't want or go anywhere they don't want (with a few obvious exceptions). It's a stupid waste of everyone's time to go somewhere you don't want and then, to make matters worse, not be yourself. No one should mask themselves or adopt alternate personas. You only get one life so that's the one you should live. I suppose one of the reasons I feel as strongly as I do is because I was once an isolated geek who adhered to many of your rules. Once I stopped doing that and just allowed myself to be myself, social situations didn't seem that much different from engineering problems and now I'm equally comfortable with either. I have a feeling I'm not the only one.
Nervetattoo 17y ago
What the heck ... there are some bad ideas in there. #3 - The people worth being social with are those who are themselves (to the extent anyone is fully themselves), so if you merely play a character it will not help you form any interesting relationships (which is why we socialize, right?). Indeed, the "you" part must be served at the correct dosage, but don't just act like whatever others expect you to. #4 - Indeed, before you say anything make sure you listen a lot, rather keep your mouth shut and get a view of what people are talking about and their stances. But, when you finally say something, make sure its never superficial but relevant and stuff that intrigue the others. Asking deep questions regarding something is the best way of showing an interest. If its too boring a conversation, listen for a while and move on - not your crowd. #6 - Agreed, don't be too pedantic, but if that's your flaw no one will dislike you that much for it - and if they do, screw'em. I'm too pedantic, and some people hate it so i try to tone it down, but I believe in being yourself so it sometimes comes out either way. #9 - Someone will ask of your job, and when you answer "IT" they will 90% of the time ask you to explain further, unless they already view you as completely uninteresting, at which point nothing matters really. I have tried to explain to some extent what i do as a programmer more than a 100 times, and especially to women with no technical understanding there's just no working analogy and after 15 minutes of back and forth we tend to settle at "computers and stuff" and I can use that settlement as a humorous thing - in other words, something positive. If you are remembered as the person that simply couldn't explain what the heck he's doing then that beats not being remembered, 10 out of 10 times. Just go for it. People tend to like passionate people, show your passion but restrict yourself from the geeky way of presenting it. And take equal passion in understanding what they tell you, if someone talks about the fashion business you probably wouldn't understand a thing would you? ;) Make a joke on your own behalf out of these things. In general these tips sounded like a guide to lowering your social self esteem and how to not meet and get to know people. If that's your thing - stay home in the first place. Rather talk to people, take interesting, share of yourself, don't hog a discussion though and let everyone have their talking turn. Be a good listener first and then talk, no one likes braggers indeed. Learn to take an interesting in dead boring things that others find interesting, you might even be surprised just to watch how passionate someone will be over something so amazingly stupid. Remember to keep eye contact with people your talking to (not constantly though, most will be intimidated). Probably the best tip for looking interested is focusing on their nose, people cant tell the difference between that and true eye contact most of the time. (It will be easier for you, after all, these are things you have issues with probably). I'm not saying I'm some expert, but I'm an overly social geek who loves people and knows a lot of them, and all of them know I'm a geek and i clearly say that I am as well. I've never gotten any disrespect for being a geek, although once in a while it will make women lose their interest as soon as they hear it - though not most of the time.
IsaacL 17y ago
Some good advice (don't be pedantic, don't tell people what they should do), some not so good. Becoming a geek is more socially acceptable these days. A lot of people are interested in technology. A few girls find shy, geeky guys attractive. (Though perhaps that's just the fashion for thick-framed glasses). Seriously, being a geek is a lot less shameful than you might think. I can think of multiple people I know who don't seem geeky but have multiple geeky interests. A dope-smoking guy from South London who downloads graphic novels. A rugby-playing privately educated girl who played Dungeons and Dragons as a teenager. A weightlifting Australian who enjoys bad fantasy novels. My personal advice: Be interested in people. Try to make others feel good about themselves, as opposed to making yourself look good. Match your speaking style to the other person.
Mz 17y ago
Treat people with respect. Have good boundaries. Don't be an attention hog. Don't let negative prejudices dictate your behavior even when you do run into them. Generally speaking, I tend to be pretty open about who I am. But there are situations where that is practically guaranteed to cause problems. I try to be more low key and dole information out more slowly in such settings. Does it make me feel like I am wearing a mask? Sometimes. But you can't be deeply intimate with the entire world, so it is inevitable that a great many more people will know me only superficially than know me well. <shrug>

18 points by nopinsight 17y ago

Rod 17y ago

I was positively surprised by this article. Much better than I anticipated... It's good to remind myself that in social gatherings what matters is not what is being discussed, but rather how it is being discussed. I used to hate small-talk because I thought I learned nothing while doing it, but then I realized that small-talk is not an exchange of verbal information, but rather a way to categorize and label strangers, and to find common ground that may lead to less superficial discussion. Once I figured that out, small-talk became a challenge: if you know the rules of the game, you can play it to your advantage.

jimbokun 17y ago

A good summary seems to be "Just keep your mouth shut." And I don't think that is very good advice. It's not much different than avoiding all social gatherings altogether.

Rod 17y ago
Keeping one's mouth shut is actually great advice! The less one says, the less one has the chance to screw up. Is this the same as avoiding social gatherings? I don't think so. You can keep your mouth shut and cause good impression by being a good listener. Let's face it: most people like to talk more than they like to listen. While at a social event, you can quickly study the people you're talking to, try to figure what motivates them, and then ask carefully-thought questions that will make them talk for hours. You don't need to pay attention to what they say, you merely need to give the impression that you do. Listening enough so you can ask more questions is always a good idea. If you keep a good posture and obey the rules of etiquette, you can go through a party without talking at all, and people will perceive you as a polite person, a good listener, a gentleman. Most social gatherings are work, they're not supposed to be fun. They're not meant to be relaxing. Stay frosty and don't be yourself under any circumstances.

mtrimpe 17y ago

This should be called: "How to still get invited to a few parties without enjoying them, but at least knowing you're not going to make a total ass out of yourself." Not that I've figured it all out or anything, but I'm sure tips like learning to control your body, voice and emotional state, listening intently and making sure that the insightful analysis of our everyday world you can provide will actually enrich people's lives would be far better advice.

chasingsparks 17y ago

Being awkward and being geeky is not the same thing. Talking about what you enjoy is not awkward. Talking down to people who don't follow your field of interest is offensive and silly. Telling people about your passion -- if they ask -- is not a bad thing. Sometimes you are forced into situations where you must "play some social game," but even in those situations, being yourself is usually a better strategy. Sometimes socializing is a weird prisoners dilemma -- but with many repeated trials.

edw519 17y ago

1. Recognize that people will know you are a geek from the moment they meet you Assume nothing. If you're not sure about something, ask. Give the other person the benefit of the doubt at least once. 2. Don't try to change people's preconceived notions of geeks Don't try to change anything about anyone else. Just be yourself and engage them. 3. Don't get too comfortable and start being yourself Always be yourself. Who else are you going to be? And who is going to be you? 4. Try to talk as little as possible, and when you do speak, only ask superficial questions Take advantage of this excellent opportunity to engage with other people. Learning is maximized for everyone when all talk and listen. 5. But don't ask questions about things that normal people should know How else would you know what's "normal" unless you ask? 6. Temporarily let go of the urge to achieve absolute precision in speaking Sometimes absolute precision is exactly what's needed to improve communication. The trick is to know when. Learning when comes from practice. 7. Don't correct anyone even when they're incorrect or imprecise Again, the trick is in judging context, which comes from practice. If they said they did something a million times, obviously no correction is needed. If they're giving instructions on defusing a live bomb, then you better correct them. 8. Don't use words that an 8th grader doesn't understand Again, how would you know? Be yourself, say what you mean, and learn from the feedback. 9. If somebody asks you about your job or hobbies, answer in one sentence Answer in as many sentences as you deem appropriate. You're probably a pretty smart person. Exercise you judgement, which will become stronger just as if you exercised your biceps. 10. If everyone around is enjoying the ambient music, background live performance, etc., don't jump in with any analysis Why not? Sometimes the most interesting conversations get started this way. Again, your judgement is way more important than OP's rules. 11. Never start a sentence with "Did you know that ..." Sames as #10. 12. Never start a sentence with "You should really ..." Probably better stated as, "Only give advice when it's asked for." I'd prefer this simple list of social tips: 1. Be yourself. Being rejected by someone else for being yourself is a self-correcting problem. They just saved both of you lots of time and energy. 2. Treat others how you'd like to be treated. 3. If you spend lots of time alone, take advantage of an opportunity to be with others by engaging and learning. 4. Use your best judgement (That's what it's there for.) 5. Have fun. 6. Take any list of rules with the word "actionable" with a grain of salt.

thetrumanshow 17y ago

simon_ 17y ago

The tips about not being overbearing (correcting people, giving them unwanted advice) are well taken, but in many circles - especially the ones you actually want to be in - your natural geekiness will be highly valued. I swear that, at least in parts of SF and NY (not trying to push geographic stereotypes, these are just the places I have personal experience), geekiness is even cool. If you work too hard hiding it, you will have trouble finding these places.

pgbovine 17y ago
totally agreed (see my comment one level above) ... these 'tips' are only for when you're stuck in a social situation where geekiness is NOT cool! if you're hanging out at start-up parties or YC meet-ups and follow these tips, then everyone else will think you're a tool ;)

pgbovine 17y ago

this is the author here ... yes, i know this article sounds half-retarded, but let me try to provide some context: i'm not saying that you should always be a phony and hide your true self --- these so-called 'tips' are only for when you have to attend some boring but mandatory social occasion and don't want to stand out in any way. obviously it's stupid to try to purposely get yourself invited to posh parties and then follow these 'tips' and remain stone-silent. Edit: and then there's the issue of whether you actually want to stand out or to blend in ... i have friends in both categories: some are willing to be more quiet and blend into the background in these occasions, while others are ultra-proud to display their geekiness and don't give a crap what other people think. i suspect many people here fall in the latter category, and thus are gonna think my article is utter trash :)

Rod 17y ago
Those who don't care what other people think only attract antagonism. Those who are liked (and, consequently, invited again to such social events) are those who make other people feel good, and the best way of making other people feel good is to make them feel important. This works for office politics, and it works for dates, as well. Personally, I think your article is quite good. Maybe some on HN think it's crap, but this forum is populated by people who (wrongly) think they're too smart to have to play petty politics...
edw519 17y ago
Hi pgbovine. Thanks for your post and thanks for your visit here to the discussion. I sure wish more authors would engage us like you are doing now. I do not think your article is utter trash, I just disagree with much of it. I was one of the first to pounce on it with my other post in this thread, which I have since editted to show you the respect you deserve even though I still fundamentally disagree with your premise. A few additional thoughts: No one is "just a geek". We are all very complex beings with lots of other ways to describe us. Following a list of "rules for geeks" drops us to an unnecessary lowest common denominator. Sometimes, the only difference between "surviving this social function" and "learning something in the next hour that may change my life" is mindset. A postive mindset is often best achieved by ignoring many of your rules. Nothing is mandatory. No one really has to do anything they don't want or go anywhere they don't want (with a few obvious exceptions). It's a stupid waste of everyone's time to go somewhere you don't want and then, to make matters worse, not be yourself. No one should mask themselves or adopt alternate personas. You only get one life so that's the one you should live. I suppose one of the reasons I feel as strongly as I do is because I was once an isolated geek who adhered to many of your rules. Once I stopped doing that and just allowed myself to be myself, social situations didn't seem that much different from engineering problems and now I'm equally comfortable with either. I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

Nervetattoo 17y ago

What the heck ... there are some bad ideas in there. #3 - The people worth being social with are those who are themselves (to the extent anyone is fully themselves), so if you merely play a character it will not help you form any interesting relationships (which is why we socialize, right?). Indeed, the "you" part must be served at the correct dosage, but don't just act like whatever others expect you to. #4 - Indeed, before you say anything make sure you listen a lot, rather keep your mouth shut and get a view of what people are talking about and their stances. But, when you finally say something, make sure its never superficial but relevant and stuff that intrigue the others. Asking deep questions regarding something is the best way of showing an interest. If its too boring a conversation, listen for a while and move on - not your crowd. #6 - Agreed, don't be too pedantic, but if that's your flaw no one will dislike you that much for it - and if they do, screw'em. I'm too pedantic, and some people hate it so i try to tone it down, but I believe in being yourself so it sometimes comes out either way. #9 - Someone will ask of your job, and when you answer "IT" they will 90% of the time ask you to explain further, unless they already view you as completely uninteresting, at which point nothing matters really. I have tried to explain to some extent what i do as a programmer more than a 100 times, and especially to women with no technical understanding there's just no working analogy and after 15 minutes of back and forth we tend to settle at "computers and stuff" and I can use that settlement as a humorous thing - in other words, something positive. If you are remembered as the person that simply couldn't explain what the heck he's doing then that beats not being remembered, 10 out of 10 times. Just go for it. People tend to like passionate people, show your passion but restrict yourself from the geeky way of presenting it. And take equal passion in understanding what they tell you, if someone talks about the fashion business you probably wouldn't understand a thing would you? ;) Make a joke on your own behalf out of these things. In general these tips sounded like a guide to lowering your social self esteem and how to not meet and get to know people. If that's your thing - stay home in the first place. Rather talk to people, take interesting, share of yourself, don't hog a discussion though and let everyone have their talking turn. Be a good listener first and then talk, no one likes braggers indeed. Learn to take an interesting in dead boring things that others find interesting, you might even be surprised just to watch how passionate someone will be over something so amazingly stupid. Remember to keep eye contact with people your talking to (not constantly though, most will be intimidated). Probably the best tip for looking interested is focusing on their nose, people cant tell the difference between that and true eye contact most of the time. (It will be easier for you, after all, these are things you have issues with probably). I'm not saying I'm some expert, but I'm an overly social geek who loves people and knows a lot of them, and all of them know I'm a geek and i clearly say that I am as well. I've never gotten any disrespect for being a geek, although once in a while it will make women lose their interest as soon as they hear it - though not most of the time.

IsaacL 17y ago

Some good advice (don't be pedantic, don't tell people what they should do), some not so good. Becoming a geek is more socially acceptable these days. A lot of people are interested in technology. A few girls find shy, geeky guys attractive. (Though perhaps that's just the fashion for thick-framed glasses). Seriously, being a geek is a lot less shameful than you might think. I can think of multiple people I know who don't seem geeky but have multiple geeky interests. A dope-smoking guy from South London who downloads graphic novels. A rugby-playing privately educated girl who played Dungeons and Dragons as a teenager. A weightlifting Australian who enjoys bad fantasy novels. My personal advice: Be interested in people. Try to make others feel good about themselves, as opposed to making yourself look good. Match your speaking style to the other person.

Mz 17y ago

Treat people with respect. Have good boundaries. Don't be an attention hog. Don't let negative prejudices dictate your behavior even when you do run into them. Generally speaking, I tend to be pretty open about who I am. But there are situations where that is practically guaranteed to cause problems. I try to be more low key and dole information out more slowly in such settings. Does it make me feel like I am wearing a mask? Sometimes. But you can't be deeply intimate with the entire world, so it is inevitable that a great many more people will know me only superficially than know me well. <shrug>