6 ms·

Inside Japan’s Disposable Housing Market

66 points by igonvalue 11y ago

rwmj 11y ago
There's a very tiny band of people buying old "Minkas"[1] and restoring them. My Japanese friends recently moved into one, and it's amazing. Here is an English article on the subject[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minka [2] https://spikejapan.wordpress.com/miscellany/ https://spikejapan.wordpress.com/miscellany/
eloisant 11y ago
<i>"In a culture obsessed with newness"</i> It's mostly because of earthquakes, they got used to buildings being temporary. Also sismic regulations are constantly evolving, so newer is safer (because more resistant to earthquake thanks to modern technics) and after some time it's more effective to destroy a building than do the necessary (and mandatory) work to keep up with the regulations. So no, the Japanese don't want new houses because it's shiny and they're bored of the old ones.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  I have a completely different understanding of this. Buying a house, the carpets, the drapes, all have to be replaced. Because of a taboo against using things soiled by other people. No amount of cleaning can get them clean enough to overcome a taboo. Same with cars. There is apparently little/no used car market in Japan. Lots of our (USA) spare parts for economy cars come over on ships from Japan. Because, no market there.
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    Japanese used cars are quite popular in other nearby left-side driving countries (Thailand, Indonesia, India, Australia) and even Russia (which is right-side but whatever). Even Japanese buildings/houses are rebuilt every N years for the newness. Might not be really sustainable.
    - gherkin0 11y ago
      They even make it further afield than that. I was in Peru about 5 years ago, and saw a lot of used Japanese cars. IIRC, they didn't even bother converting some from right hand to left hand drive, which is how I think I noticed.
      - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
        Ya, the same thing happens in Russia's far east.
      - cgh 11y ago
        Also BC, Canada. Those Mitsubishi Delica vans are popular because they are camperized and have four wheel drive. It's amazing there isn't another option built for the domestic market rather than having to import fifteen year old, right hand drive vehicles like these.
        seanmcdirmid 11y ago
        And the only way to get a cute Daihatsu Copen is to import directly from Japan. So many nice cars there that I wish they would export more and convert to right hand driving.
  - pcurve 11y ago
    "There is apparently little/no used car market in Japan." This isn't really true. A lot of people buy used cars in Japan. Not sure how you got that information.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      Huh. This link supports that view. Only 25% are exported now. http://www.j-ucar.com/ucarmarket/ http://www.j-ucar.com/ucarmarket/
      - pcurve 11y ago
        right. 25-30% are exported. The rest are not.
  - amurmann 11y ago
    That shouldn't be a insurmountable issue though. When I buy a house all the carpets come out and get replaced with wood floors and everything gets repainted. Otherwise it's just gross.
  - gherkin0 11y ago
    > There is apparently little/no used car market in Japan. At least historically, that's because the inspection process for keeping old cars on the road is so onerous that many people don't want to bother an just got new cars[1]. I don't know how things are now, but it sound like the inspections are still expensive[2]. [1] (90s) http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/12/world/why-the-cars-in-japan-look-just-like-new.html http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/12/world/why-the-cars-in-japa... [2] (more recent) http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2022.html http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2022.html
    - jmadsen 11y ago
      exactly. I worked for years in the JP car export business (tech side of things)
    - tsotha 11y ago
      Yes. This is deliberate policy by the government to push people to buy more cars than they would otherwise buy.
  - Takizawa 11y ago
    There are multiple factors involved with used cars in Japan. Check this link out: http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view/buying-a-used-car-in-japan-what-to-keep-in-mind http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view/buying-a-u...
  - bane 11y ago
    I've seen videos of lots full of perfectly working, but slightly used, appliances waiting to be dismantled and recycled in Japan. They don't even bother blocking entrance to the lot and they're mostly unattended, so anybody could in theory, just drive up and fill their house with all the appliances they need for nothing. You also rarely see old cars on the road because (my understanding is) that taxes incentivize people to ditch old cars quickly and get new ones. My thinking is this extends through various parts of Japanese society, and combined with various taboos, is used by the government to help keep the economy moving. Otherwise, the culturally thrifty Japanese population would just keep everything they have forever and the economy would be in worse shape than it is now.
    - scratchandsniff 11y ago
      This concept is fascinating given the general perception that Japanese products have for reliability and longevity.
      - Demiurge 11y ago
        This is probably an example of the non obvious shape of the reliability curve, which has a hump of failures early on, but then trails off. Effort to decrease reliability early on coincides with long term reliability.
    - rcthompson 11y ago
      I feel like it's a fallacy that things need to be constantly thrown out and replaced for an economy to be healthy. If someone doesn't have to spend $1000 on new appliances, it's not like that thousand dollars disappears from the economy. Either the person spends that money on something else or sticks it in their savings account and the bank loans some of it out for someone else to spend. (This is basic econ theory, so I'm sure it's a little more complicated than that.) How is it better for an economy when people have to spend money replacing existing things instead of on buying new stuff?
      - abhishivsaxena 11y ago
- jcromartie 11y ago
  http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-japanese-shrine-has-been-torn-down-and-rebuilt-every-20-years-for-the-past-millennium-575558/?no-ist http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-japanese-shrin...
- mc32 11y ago
  Does freehold vs leasehold also affect the valuation of buildings? Towards the end the lease on the property the lease on leasehold properties are worth less, versus freehold properties? I'm asking because I dont know, but think I could have some impact on building values as they age.
david-given 11y ago
Australia has a phenomenon called 'removal homes', where you'll buy a house on one plot of land and ship it, intact, somewhere else. Example: http://www.atlashouseremovers.com.au/ http://www.atlashouseremovers.com.au/
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  My sister in Oklahoma got her 2nd house this way. Freeway ramp going in; house was free to anyone interested in hauling it away. Was so tall, they chainsawed 6 feed out of the 2nd storey. Once on site, they propped it back up, rebuilt the studs and drywall so you couldn't tell it'd ever happened!
bane 11y ago
A fantastic resource for understanding this weird market is the "Buying a House in Japan" playlist on this youtube channel [1] He goes through lots of this weirdness in the Japanese market as he looks to buy and restore an older home. I suspect there's a "let's boost GDP with more construction" problem in Japan. It's resulted in lots of fantastic infrastructure, but also bizarre half-formed highways, unfinished bridges, paved over rivers and other things built way out in the countryside. [2] 1 - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE0D149A2A50898A3 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE0D149A2A50898A3 2 - http://regex.info/blog/2007-03-25/403 http://regex.info/blog/2007-03-25/403
- marak830 11y ago
  Thankyou, ill be checking that out when i get time.
debacle 11y ago
A story similar to this was shared on Reddit a while back and many people chimed in that the story was massively overblown.
srunni 11y ago
> The current of the flowing river does not cease, and yet the water is not the same water as before. The foam that floats on stagnant pools, now vanishing, now forming, never stays the same for long. So, too, it is with the people and dwellings of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C5%8Dj%C5%8Dki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C5%8Dj%C5%8Dki
marak830 11y ago
I dont think its as bad as it sounds now. Oh btw my wife is Japanese, and were currently living in Yokohama. Now there is a taboo againt house from the early 80's(ill have to check with her for the exact date), as there were different building laws in relation to earthquakes. Also a lot of the houses that are built with wood are undesirable -earthquakes, fire risk etc. We just rented a fairly good sized wooden apartment at quite a bit under market rates. My point being there is a lot of new houses going up which are built to seemingly higher standards, which people want, conpared to say my Japabese grandparents house, which shakes if i move too quickly through it. I do believe the trend is startibg to switch around though, as more houses become available in the "higher quality" bracket. (Note: i dont necessarily agree with the quality perceptions, im more of a case by case kind of guy). One last thing someone mentioned about second hand cars: There really is a stigma, we had a mild argument about that the other day haha. I want a used card (around 4k aud), she wants a new one(12k aud). For shopping -.-
- marak830 11y ago
  Update: she woke up, 1985 or 86 is when the law was introduced, and she says she always gives it a year or two after that. Also the law has been updated multiple times. Hell i figure if the house is still standing after the last one and shows no damage, were good to go. (Proper check for damage, not me checking haha).
- PhantomGremlin 11y ago
  a lot of the houses that are built with wood are undesirable -earthquakes, fire risk etc Many American houses are colloquially called "stick houses"[1] because they are built from 2"x4" or 2"x6" lumber. These are often also called "wood frame"[2]. In an earthquake I'd rather take my chances in a wood frame house over one built from bricks, concrete, and rebar. After earthquakes, I've seen too many collapsed concrete buildings on TV, with people buried under tons of rubble. A wood frame house is generally too light to collapse in such a way as to pancake the occupants. I agree with you in terms of other risks. E.g. we've had a lot of forest fires this summer, and many wood frame houses were lost. All that remained were the concrete foundations and the brick fireplaces. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick-built_home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick-built_home [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood-frame_house https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood-frame_house

66 points by igonvalue 11y ago

rwmj 11y ago

There's a very tiny band of people buying old "Minkas"[1] and restoring them. My Japanese friends recently moved into one, and it's amazing. Here is an English article on the subject[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minka [2] https://spikejapan.wordpress.com/miscellany/ https://spikejapan.wordpress.com/miscellany/

eloisant 11y ago

<i>"In a culture obsessed with newness"</i> It's mostly because of earthquakes, they got used to buildings being temporary. Also sismic regulations are constantly evolving, so newer is safer (because more resistant to earthquake thanks to modern technics) and after some time it's more effective to destroy a building than do the necessary (and mandatory) work to keep up with the regulations. So no, the Japanese don't want new houses because it's shiny and they're bored of the old ones.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
I have a completely different understanding of this. Buying a house, the carpets, the drapes, all have to be replaced. Because of a taboo against using things soiled by other people. No amount of cleaning can get them clean enough to overcome a taboo. Same with cars. There is apparently little/no used car market in Japan. Lots of our (USA) spare parts for economy cars come over on ships from Japan. Because, no market there.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Japanese used cars are quite popular in other nearby left-side driving countries (Thailand, Indonesia, India, Australia) and even Russia (which is right-side but whatever). Even Japanese buildings/houses are rebuilt every N years for the newness. Might not be really sustainable.
  - gherkin0 11y ago
    They even make it further afield than that. I was in Peru about 5 years ago, and saw a lot of used Japanese cars. IIRC, they didn't even bother converting some from right hand to left hand drive, which is how I think I noticed.
    - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
      Ya, the same thing happens in Russia's far east.
    - cgh 11y ago
      Also BC, Canada. Those Mitsubishi Delica vans are popular because they are camperized and have four wheel drive. It's amazing there isn't another option built for the domestic market rather than having to import fifteen year old, right hand drive vehicles like these.
      - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
        And the only way to get a cute Daihatsu Copen is to import directly from Japan. So many nice cars there that I wish they would export more and convert to right hand driving.
- pcurve 11y ago
  "There is apparently little/no used car market in Japan." This isn't really true. A lot of people buy used cars in Japan. Not sure how you got that information.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Huh. This link supports that view. Only 25% are exported now. http://www.j-ucar.com/ucarmarket/ http://www.j-ucar.com/ucarmarket/
    - pcurve 11y ago
      right. 25-30% are exported. The rest are not.
- amurmann 11y ago
  That shouldn't be a insurmountable issue though. When I buy a house all the carpets come out and get replaced with wood floors and everything gets repainted. Otherwise it's just gross.
- gherkin0 11y ago
  > There is apparently little/no used car market in Japan. At least historically, that's because the inspection process for keeping old cars on the road is so onerous that many people don't want to bother an just got new cars[1]. I don't know how things are now, but it sound like the inspections are still expensive[2]. [1] (90s) http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/12/world/why-the-cars-in-japan-look-just-like-new.html http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/12/world/why-the-cars-in-japa... [2] (more recent) http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2022.html http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2022.html
  - jmadsen 11y ago
    exactly. I worked for years in the JP car export business (tech side of things)
  - tsotha 11y ago
    Yes. This is deliberate policy by the government to push people to buy more cars than they would otherwise buy.
- Takizawa 11y ago
  There are multiple factors involved with used cars in Japan. Check this link out: http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view/buying-a-used-car-in-japan-what-to-keep-in-mind http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view/buying-a-u...
- bane 11y ago
  I've seen videos of lots full of perfectly working, but slightly used, appliances waiting to be dismantled and recycled in Japan. They don't even bother blocking entrance to the lot and they're mostly unattended, so anybody could in theory, just drive up and fill their house with all the appliances they need for nothing. You also rarely see old cars on the road because (my understanding is) that taxes incentivize people to ditch old cars quickly and get new ones. My thinking is this extends through various parts of Japanese society, and combined with various taboos, is used by the government to help keep the economy moving. Otherwise, the culturally thrifty Japanese population would just keep everything they have forever and the economy would be in worse shape than it is now.
  - scratchandsniff 11y ago
    This concept is fascinating given the general perception that Japanese products have for reliability and longevity.
    - Demiurge 11y ago
      This is probably an example of the non obvious shape of the reliability curve, which has a hump of failures early on, but then trails off. Effort to decrease reliability early on coincides with long term reliability.
  - rcthompson 11y ago
    I feel like it's a fallacy that things need to be constantly thrown out and replaced for an economy to be healthy. If someone doesn't have to spend $1000 on new appliances, it's not like that thousand dollars disappears from the economy. Either the person spends that money on something else or sticks it in their savings account and the bank loans some of it out for someone else to spend. (This is basic econ theory, so I'm sure it's a little more complicated than that.) How is it better for an economy when people have to spend money replacing existing things instead of on buying new stuff?
    - abhishivsaxena 11y ago
jcromartie 11y ago
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-japanese-shrine-has-been-torn-down-and-rebuilt-every-20-years-for-the-past-millennium-575558/?no-ist http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-japanese-shrin...
mc32 11y ago
Does freehold vs leasehold also affect the valuation of buildings? Towards the end the lease on the property the lease on leasehold properties are worth less, versus freehold properties? I'm asking because I dont know, but think I could have some impact on building values as they age.

david-given 11y ago

Australia has a phenomenon called 'removal homes', where you'll buy a house on one plot of land and ship it, intact, somewhere else. Example: http://www.atlashouseremovers.com.au/ http://www.atlashouseremovers.com.au/

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
My sister in Oklahoma got her 2nd house this way. Freeway ramp going in; house was free to anyone interested in hauling it away. Was so tall, they chainsawed 6 feed out of the 2nd storey. Once on site, they propped it back up, rebuilt the studs and drywall so you couldn't tell it'd ever happened!

bane 11y ago

A fantastic resource for understanding this weird market is the "Buying a House in Japan" playlist on this youtube channel [1] He goes through lots of this weirdness in the Japanese market as he looks to buy and restore an older home. I suspect there's a "let's boost GDP with more construction" problem in Japan. It's resulted in lots of fantastic infrastructure, but also bizarre half-formed highways, unfinished bridges, paved over rivers and other things built way out in the countryside. [2] 1 - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE0D149A2A50898A3 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE0D149A2A50898A3 2 - http://regex.info/blog/2007-03-25/403 http://regex.info/blog/2007-03-25/403

marak830 11y ago
Thankyou, ill be checking that out when i get time.

debacle 11y ago

A story similar to this was shared on Reddit a while back and many people chimed in that the story was massively overblown.

srunni 11y ago

> The current of the flowing river does not cease, and yet the water is not the same water as before. The foam that floats on stagnant pools, now vanishing, now forming, never stays the same for long. So, too, it is with the people and dwellings of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C5%8Dj%C5%8Dki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C5%8Dj%C5%8Dki

marak830 11y ago

I dont think its as bad as it sounds now. Oh btw my wife is Japanese, and were currently living in Yokohama. Now there is a taboo againt house from the early 80's(ill have to check with her for the exact date), as there were different building laws in relation to earthquakes. Also a lot of the houses that are built with wood are undesirable -earthquakes, fire risk etc. We just rented a fairly good sized wooden apartment at quite a bit under market rates. My point being there is a lot of new houses going up which are built to seemingly higher standards, which people want, conpared to say my Japabese grandparents house, which shakes if i move too quickly through it. I do believe the trend is startibg to switch around though, as more houses become available in the "higher quality" bracket. (Note: i dont necessarily agree with the quality perceptions, im more of a case by case kind of guy). One last thing someone mentioned about second hand cars: There really is a stigma, we had a mild argument about that the other day haha. I want a used card (around 4k aud), she wants a new one(12k aud). For shopping -.-

marak830 11y ago
Update: she woke up, 1985 or 86 is when the law was introduced, and she says she always gives it a year or two after that. Also the law has been updated multiple times. Hell i figure if the house is still standing after the last one and shows no damage, were good to go. (Proper check for damage, not me checking haha).
PhantomGremlin 11y ago
a lot of the houses that are built with wood are undesirable -earthquakes, fire risk etc Many American houses are colloquially called "stick houses"[1] because they are built from 2"x4" or 2"x6" lumber. These are often also called "wood frame"[2]. In an earthquake I'd rather take my chances in a wood frame house over one built from bricks, concrete, and rebar. After earthquakes, I've seen too many collapsed concrete buildings on TV, with people buried under tons of rubble. A wood frame house is generally too light to collapse in such a way as to pancake the occupants. I agree with you in terms of other risks. E.g. we've had a lot of forest fires this summer, and many wood frame houses were lost. All that remained were the concrete foundations and the brick fireplaces. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick-built_home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick-built_home [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood-frame_house https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood-frame_house