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I was an intern for AMD a few years ago (these are my views and not AMD's). I was pretty skeptical about AMD's antitrust claims against Intel until I went to w

I was an intern for AMD a few years ago (these are my views and not AMD's). I was pretty skeptical about AMD's antitrust claims against Intel until I went to work there. I'm as free market as they day is long, but there's a whole untold story of the evil things that go on in the back meeting rooms, even outside of sales, where most of the public lawsuit claims are/were. The thing to remember is that AMD is a small fraction of the size of Intel, and they have to cover the same market segments. If they try to specialize (say, servers, or notebooks), Intel will just sell that segment at a loss. AMD has to cover everything with only a fraction of the people to stay competitive, and it's really hard. Even while I was there, we had what I suspect (but have no proof) were incidents of people leaking product plans, roadmaps, etc. (but no IP) to Intel. It's sad, really.

jimbokun 17y ago
"Even while I was there, we had what I suspect (but have no proof) were incidents of people leaking product plans, roadmaps, etc. (but no IP) to Intel." I can't imagine Steve Jobs allowing this to happen at Apple. They have definitely caught people leaking things, and the consequences were swift and unpleasant for the leaker. Why can't AMD catch these people? Is there something preventing them from implementing the same kinds of measures to catch leakers as Apple? (Using Apple just as an example, of course. I'm sure there are other companies who find leakers and make an example of them through the legal system.)
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- drewcrawford 17y ago
  There was one guy who was strung up as a leaker ten years ago. Don't remember his name, but it was a big deal. AMD's culture is just different than Apple's. For one, there are no "secret teams" like iPhone, iTablet, etc. (well, at least none that I knew about). For another, developers have real autonomy to make business decisions, something that would never happen at Apple. For instance, I, a lowly intern, redeployed software to the production line during an emergency. If something went wrong, chips would actually stop rolling out of the factory. I would imagine normal (non-senior) Apple engineers don't have that kind of autonomy. The other major difference, which perhaps you caught above, is that AMD actually manufactures their own stuff. So, not only are there US engineers, but engineers overseas in the plants that AMD owns, engineers in Dresden, etc. Not to say that foreign engineers are somehow bad, but it is a lot harder to control leaks when you have engineers working literally 24/7 all around the world. And at the scale that you're making your own stuff, there are just more people than there are at Apple, and things are way harder to control. It's like herding cats.
  - djcapelis 17y ago
    > For instance, I, a lowly intern, redeployed software to the > production line during an emergency. If something went > wrong, chips would actually stop rolling out of the factory. While I'm all for letting engineers react to things progressively, that you were in position where a screw up could have shut down a fab as an intern is nothing short of terrifying to me.
    - drewcrawford 17y ago
      > That you were in position where a screw up could have shut down a fab as an intern is nothing short of terrifying to me. To me, the converse is a lot scarier: what if I, feeling no personal responsibility for yield, wasn't there after-hours looking for bugs in the first place? Or what if I did find the critical bug, but had to wait weeks for forms before it was pushed through? Or was blocked by office politics? There's nothing more disheartening as having a fix for something serious that you can't push through. I've worked at companies like that: taking away the power to break something means taking away the power to make it better. Not to say that I somehow dislike code reviews or generally fly by the seat of my pants: the situation really was a real emergency. I can't talk specifics, but the bug had already cost more than the damage it would do to if I broke something.
    - regularfry 17y ago
      Toyota have a very similar rule that they actively promote: every worker has a button with which they can shut the line down if they see something wrong. It seems to work for them...
  - Nelson69 17y ago
    Culture is part of it. How many people there had worked for Intel in the past and how many leave AMD to go to Intel in the future? I'd expect that's part of it too.
- joe_the_user 17y ago
  Well AMD is a small fraction of the size of Apple as well. Even more, Apple's business isn't oriented towards cutting into the market share of a large competitor. And there have been significant leaks at Apple.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  The problem here is that you can easily detect leaks to the press. Tainted information gets published and you know who leaked by how the leak deviates from reality. It's less so with leaks between companies. A company that deals this way will never allow the information it gathers to show up like that. Even analysts who will examine the leaked materials will have little (not so little in the case of Intel - they have like two competitors) information about the origins of what they are looking at.
- praptak 17y ago
  "I can't imagine Steve Jobs allowing this to happen at Apple. They have definitely caught people leaking things, and the consequences were swift and unpleasant for the leaker." Indeed, you don't wanna mess with Apple: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10291701-37.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10291701-37.html
brk 17y ago
The thing to remember is that AMD is a small fraction of the size of Intel, and they have to cover the same market segments. Not sure what you mean by this statement. Should AMD get some sort of special consideration because they are smaller than Intel?
- netcan 17y ago
  The point does not stand alone, you are right. drewcrawford said "If they try to specialize (say, servers, or notebooks), Intel will just sell that segment at a loss" That's the point & that is arguably anticompetitive. IE, they are small and they have to spread wide to avoid being open to predatory pricing.
  - brk 17y ago
    Yes, but they voluntarily entered in to their business. What is AMD's competitive advantage? The best I've ever seen is that they are cheaper than Intel for a given processor class/speed. However that doesn't seem to have gotten them much traction. Competing on price alone rarely makes for a successful company.
    - netcan 17y ago
      " Competing on price alone rarely makes for a successful company" You sure?
      - brk 17y ago
        Yes. It's fairly established that chasing down the lowest-price path usually doesn't make for a very stable business model in the manufacturing businesses. This is even more significant when the competitive options are significantly limited (eg: processors). In larger markets (eg: automobiles) there is more room for low-cost competitors to make some money, but they are not often powerhouses of the industry. If you have data to the contrary please post (and by data I mean more than just 1-off examples).

jimbokun 17y ago

"Even while I was there, we had what I suspect (but have no proof) were incidents of people leaking product plans, roadmaps, etc. (but no IP) to Intel." I can't imagine Steve Jobs allowing this to happen at Apple. They have definitely caught people leaking things, and the consequences were swift and unpleasant for the leaker. Why can't AMD catch these people? Is there something preventing them from implementing the same kinds of measures to catch leakers as Apple? (Using Apple just as an example, of course. I'm sure there are other companies who find leakers and make an example of them through the legal system.)

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
drewcrawford 17y ago
There was one guy who was strung up as a leaker ten years ago. Don't remember his name, but it was a big deal. AMD's culture is just different than Apple's. For one, there are no "secret teams" like iPhone, iTablet, etc. (well, at least none that I knew about). For another, developers have real autonomy to make business decisions, something that would never happen at Apple. For instance, I, a lowly intern, redeployed software to the production line during an emergency. If something went wrong, chips would actually stop rolling out of the factory. I would imagine normal (non-senior) Apple engineers don't have that kind of autonomy. The other major difference, which perhaps you caught above, is that AMD actually manufactures their own stuff. So, not only are there US engineers, but engineers overseas in the plants that AMD owns, engineers in Dresden, etc. Not to say that foreign engineers are somehow bad, but it is a lot harder to control leaks when you have engineers working literally 24/7 all around the world. And at the scale that you're making your own stuff, there are just more people than there are at Apple, and things are way harder to control. It's like herding cats.
- djcapelis 17y ago
  > For instance, I, a lowly intern, redeployed software to the > production line during an emergency. If something went > wrong, chips would actually stop rolling out of the factory. While I'm all for letting engineers react to things progressively, that you were in position where a screw up could have shut down a fab as an intern is nothing short of terrifying to me.
  - drewcrawford 17y ago
    > That you were in position where a screw up could have shut down a fab as an intern is nothing short of terrifying to me. To me, the converse is a lot scarier: what if I, feeling no personal responsibility for yield, wasn't there after-hours looking for bugs in the first place? Or what if I did find the critical bug, but had to wait weeks for forms before it was pushed through? Or was blocked by office politics? There's nothing more disheartening as having a fix for something serious that you can't push through. I've worked at companies like that: taking away the power to break something means taking away the power to make it better. Not to say that I somehow dislike code reviews or generally fly by the seat of my pants: the situation really was a real emergency. I can't talk specifics, but the bug had already cost more than the damage it would do to if I broke something.
  - regularfry 17y ago
    Toyota have a very similar rule that they actively promote: every worker has a button with which they can shut the line down if they see something wrong. It seems to work for them...
- Nelson69 17y ago
  Culture is part of it. How many people there had worked for Intel in the past and how many leave AMD to go to Intel in the future? I'd expect that's part of it too.
joe_the_user 17y ago
Well AMD is a small fraction of the size of Apple as well. Even more, Apple's business isn't oriented towards cutting into the market share of a large competitor. And there have been significant leaks at Apple.
rbanffy 17y ago
The problem here is that you can easily detect leaks to the press. Tainted information gets published and you know who leaked by how the leak deviates from reality. It's less so with leaks between companies. A company that deals this way will never allow the information it gathers to show up like that. Even analysts who will examine the leaked materials will have little (not so little in the case of Intel - they have like two competitors) information about the origins of what they are looking at.
praptak 17y ago
"I can't imagine Steve Jobs allowing this to happen at Apple. They have definitely caught people leaking things, and the consequences were swift and unpleasant for the leaker." Indeed, you don't wanna mess with Apple: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10291701-37.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10291701-37.html

brk 17y ago

The thing to remember is that AMD is a small fraction of the size of Intel, and they have to cover the same market segments. Not sure what you mean by this statement. Should AMD get some sort of special consideration because they are smaller than Intel?

netcan 17y ago
The point does not stand alone, you are right. drewcrawford said "If they try to specialize (say, servers, or notebooks), Intel will just sell that segment at a loss" That's the point & that is arguably anticompetitive. IE, they are small and they have to spread wide to avoid being open to predatory pricing.
- brk 17y ago
  Yes, but they voluntarily entered in to their business. What is AMD's competitive advantage? The best I've ever seen is that they are cheaper than Intel for a given processor class/speed. However that doesn't seem to have gotten them much traction. Competing on price alone rarely makes for a successful company.
  - netcan 17y ago
    " Competing on price alone rarely makes for a successful company" You sure?
    - brk 17y ago
      Yes. It's fairly established that chasing down the lowest-price path usually doesn't make for a very stable business model in the manufacturing businesses. This is even more significant when the competitive options are significantly limited (eg: processors). In larger markets (eg: automobiles) there is more room for low-cost competitors to make some money, but they are not often powerhouses of the industry. If you have data to the contrary please post (and by data I mean more than just 1-off examples).