5 ms·

Haskell and floppy disks in Norwegian government

154 points by fegu 11y ago

Mithaldu 11y ago
I'm quite surprised by this. My experience with floppies (dos-formatted) was that in a bike ride of 1 hour 1 out of 10 floppies would have corruption. Or maybe the drives i used to copy on them just did not do write verification.
- t_tsonev 11y ago
  Should've formatted them with ZFS or something j/k :> Confirmed from my experience too. Luckily, archives with recovery records sometimes saved the day.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    You can't zfs, grub would already take all sectors.
    - ekimekim 11y ago
      ZFS is just a filesystem, it's usable on any storage format. It reserves some space for metadata but not much more than most filesystems. You wouldn't need a bootloader like grub unless you're trying to boot from the floppy.
- toast0 11y ago
  I think that's a function of the quality of the disk drives and the media; both of which went into the toilet when floppies stopped being generally useful. (was windows 98 available on floppies?)
  - cgriswald 11y ago
    Windows 98 was available on floppy. I know, because I painfully installed it that way. For me, floppies started failing when I didn't need to use them as often. The drive would get dusty from lack of use, and I'd put a disk in and it would be destroyed. I ended up using one floppy as a "cleaning disk" for the rare occasion when I needed to use the floppy. I'd attempt to do something on the disk and the activity would make it safe for the next disk I put in (generally).
    - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
      I recall doing an Oracle Forms based install back in 94 you had to feed 13 or 14 floppys in the right order then you could install our forms application (another 3 floppys). It to a coworker and my self 2 days to install the pilot site for only 5 users. I remember saying to my boss that about the www that when the it becomes more mature we could save so much time in product roll out.
      - digi_owl 11y ago
        In effect bringing back the X terminal era...
        spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
        Only with much less suck :-) at one time our entire team at BT was slated to switch to native X development luckly the MCI fiasco happened and we dodged a bullet
        digi_owl 11y ago
        From a user angle i find it to be a different kind of suck. I have yet to find a web app that can make up its mind about being a app or a site. Maybe the problem is more that they invariably existing inside a chrome-less browser window, but sooner or later some niggle shows up that you can't find on proper native UI.
- kalleboo 11y ago
  Same here. I quickly switched to FTP once my school got PC's with shared internet access. Anything that could fit on a floppy could reasonably quickly be FTP'ed up to the 30 MB I got from my ISP even on 56k.
- arethuza 11y ago
  I think something in your setup must have been faulty - I remember cycling to and from work (10 miles each way) with stacks of floppies and never had a problem - that's how I first installed Linux! Maybe your bike was generating a magnetic field?
kaffeemitsahne 11y ago
For doctors that really really don't want to switch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk_hardware_emulator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk_hardware_emulator
- devit 11y ago
  That's quite cool, although it would be more practical to run the MS-DOS software in DOSBox or a virtual machine and configure a virtual floppy disk drive.
  - mjcohen 11y ago
    Can it emulate Amiga floppies?
    - Keyframe 11y ago
      Like gotek?
- drdaeman 11y ago
  But it doesn't buzz!
36erhefg 11y ago
I'm surprised a plain floppy disk is considered secure because it is in an envelope. Even though that envelope requires an id to pick up, I see that similar as a message in plaintext that has a header: private - please don't read.
- oconnore 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamper-evident_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamper-evident_technology
- idlewords 11y ago
  It's quite surprisingly secure because, apart from crazy Norwegian doctors, who on earth can read a floppy disk?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    Absolutely anyone who wants to. http://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-External-Floppy-Drive-FL-UDRV/dp/B00E9MD700/ http://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-External-Floppy-Drive-FL-UDRV/...
    - zeckalpha 11y ago
      I have this exact drive. Amazon says: "You purchased this item on December 2, 2014."
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- superuser2 11y ago
  The Supreme Court puts email in the same legal category as postcards: little to no expectation of privacy, because everyone along the way can trivially read it. Certainly an envelope can be trivially bypassed, but the clear signaling of intent may be enough to sway the legal status of eavesdropping on it.
digi_owl 11y ago
There is a whole host of old in work there, not just the floppies and the DOS software. Notice that the company he works for gets the records that are to be distributed in EBCDIC format. According to Wikipedia that can be traced back to IBM punchcards! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBCDIC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBCDIC And i'm not surprised, likely older, doctors cling to their DOS interfaces. I recall watching cashiers operating similar ones at various stores, and once you have the keys down navigating the interface can be quite fast. Also, you never have to worry about some errant popup or other stealing focus...
- mattivc 11y ago
  The reason a lot of Norwegian doctors cling to their DOS interfaces is not because of age, or a resistance to upgrade. I have discussed the topic of medical software with my father extensively, who is a M.D. in a rural town in Norway. The reason is efficiency. As a doctor you are required to look up a lot of information on the patient, while maintaining a conversation with them. This is only really possible with a keyboard only interface. The older DOS systems does this, and the newer GUI based packages largely does not.
  - weland 11y ago
    I can confirm this. I have an acquiantance who is a medic, far away from Norway. He's in the same boat. A few years ago, when they switched to their new system, he mentioned to me that one of the reasons he's so unhappy with the new system is that he cannot talk to the patient while looking up his information. He has to stop and focus on the screen. This introduces some bouts of awkward silence which is all the more unpleasant when the guy you're talking to is worried about his health.
  - toothbrush 11y ago
    Cool, someone should write an Emacs mode for them! I am very sympathetic to the arguments for using a keyboard-only interface, i try to achieve that on my own computer as much as possible, too.
    - 11y ago
chanux 11y ago
The first thing I thought seeing the picture in that article: "Classified info on a Lenovo Thinkpad?"
- semi-extrinsic 11y ago
  From looking at the webpage of TFA's author I'd say it's very probably airgapped and running some BSD flavor.
  - fegu 11y ago
    Airgap is a requirement, I will update the article. Thanks for reminding me.
josteink 11y ago
> A floppy copy workstation in 2015. The retro handset is just there for giggles. As a norwegian, I have to say its good to see these guys have a sense of humour about their (honestly) pointless work :)
provemewrong 11y ago
> Fun fact: while floppies are indestructible Haha, oh boy.
mseebach 11y ago
> Norwegian doctors get one 3.5″ floppy in the mail from the government [..] every month. For a long time this applied to all of them, but for about the last decade a secure electronic option has been available. Problem is, a lot of doctors love their MSDOS-based electronic journals and haven’t switched yet. > The government seems to finally close down floppy distribution at the beginning of 2016, forcing any remaining doctors over to newer electronic patient journals. Sadly, the chosen strategy is just to offer paper printouts instead, requiring error-prone rekeying at the doctor’s office. It seems like these guys have a potential business in selling a device/appliance to bridge the "secure electronic option" to floppy gap (without relying on paper): Basically make doctors do this work themselves. A laptop (running locked down Linux for security reasons) and a USB floppy drive. You can easily charge 10x hardware cost, so no need to skimp, and you can support by exchanging the entire setup via post.
- amelius 11y ago
  The problem could be that the solution must be "open", so there is no potential for lock in, hence not much money to be made.
  - mseebach 11y ago
    It's not a huge, long-term business, for sure. There are only n doctors still running the DOS app in the entire market, and that number will only ever shrink. The lock-in is provided by the extreme niche-ness of the market the conservatism of these doctors. These floppy-guys have a unique position in the market, they know exactly what to do -- they are basically the only ones who can credibly pitch these doctors at all. Once they've bought a solution that actually works, is stable and compliant etc., these doctors are not going to shop around to save maybe $1-2000/year (or whatever you can charge in maintenance), it's simply not worth their while and the risk. Remember, these are not scrappy little outfits, they have cash to spend, and they will spend it if you can supply stability and continuity.

154 points by fegu 11y ago

I'm quite surprised by this. My experience with floppies (dos-formatted) was that in a bike ride of 1 hour 1 out of 10 floppies would have corruption. Or maybe the drives i used to copy on them just did not do write verification.

t_tsonev 11y ago
Should've formatted them with ZFS or something j/k :> Confirmed from my experience too. Luckily, archives with recovery records sometimes saved the day.
- agumonkey 11y ago
  You can't zfs, grub would already take all sectors.
  - ekimekim 11y ago
    ZFS is just a filesystem, it's usable on any storage format. It reserves some space for metadata but not much more than most filesystems. You wouldn't need a bootloader like grub unless you're trying to boot from the floppy.
toast0 11y ago
I think that's a function of the quality of the disk drives and the media; both of which went into the toilet when floppies stopped being generally useful. (was windows 98 available on floppies?)
- cgriswald 11y ago
  Windows 98 was available on floppy. I know, because I painfully installed it that way. For me, floppies started failing when I didn't need to use them as often. The drive would get dusty from lack of use, and I'd put a disk in and it would be destroyed. I ended up using one floppy as a "cleaning disk" for the rare occasion when I needed to use the floppy. I'd attempt to do something on the disk and the activity would make it safe for the next disk I put in (generally).
  - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
    I recall doing an Oracle Forms based install back in 94 you had to feed 13 or 14 floppys in the right order then you could install our forms application (another 3 floppys). It to a coworker and my self 2 days to install the pilot site for only 5 users. I remember saying to my boss that about the www that when the it becomes more mature we could save so much time in product roll out.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      In effect bringing back the X terminal era...
      - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
        Only with much less suck :-) at one time our entire team at BT was slated to switch to native X development luckly the MCI fiasco happened and we dodged a bullet
        digi_owl 11y ago
        From a user angle i find it to be a different kind of suck. I have yet to find a web app that can make up its mind about being a app or a site. Maybe the problem is more that they invariably existing inside a chrome-less browser window, but sooner or later some niggle shows up that you can't find on proper native UI.
kalleboo 11y ago
Same here. I quickly switched to FTP once my school got PC's with shared internet access. Anything that could fit on a floppy could reasonably quickly be FTP'ed up to the 30 MB I got from my ISP even on 56k.
arethuza 11y ago
I think something in your setup must have been faulty - I remember cycling to and from work (10 miles each way) with stacks of floppies and never had a problem - that's how I first installed Linux! Maybe your bike was generating a magnetic field?

kaffeemitsahne 11y ago

For doctors that really really don't want to switch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk_hardware_emulator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk_hardware_emulator

devit 11y ago
That's quite cool, although it would be more practical to run the MS-DOS software in DOSBox or a virtual machine and configure a virtual floppy disk drive.
- mjcohen 11y ago
  Can it emulate Amiga floppies?
  - Keyframe 11y ago
    Like gotek?
drdaeman 11y ago
But it doesn't buzz!

36erhefg 11y ago

I'm surprised a plain floppy disk is considered secure because it is in an envelope. Even though that envelope requires an id to pick up, I see that similar as a message in plaintext that has a header: private - please don't read.

oconnore 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamper-evident_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamper-evident_technology
idlewords 11y ago
It's quite surprisingly secure because, apart from crazy Norwegian doctors, who on earth can read a floppy disk?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  Absolutely anyone who wants to. http://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-External-Floppy-Drive-FL-UDRV/dp/B00E9MD700/ http://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-External-Floppy-Drive-FL-UDRV/...
  - zeckalpha 11y ago
    I have this exact drive. Amazon says: "You purchased this item on December 2, 2014."
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
superuser2 11y ago
The Supreme Court puts email in the same legal category as postcards: little to no expectation of privacy, because everyone along the way can trivially read it. Certainly an envelope can be trivially bypassed, but the clear signaling of intent may be enough to sway the legal status of eavesdropping on it.

digi_owl 11y ago

There is a whole host of old in work there, not just the floppies and the DOS software. Notice that the company he works for gets the records that are to be distributed in EBCDIC format. According to Wikipedia that can be traced back to IBM punchcards! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBCDIC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBCDIC And i'm not surprised, likely older, doctors cling to their DOS interfaces. I recall watching cashiers operating similar ones at various stores, and once you have the keys down navigating the interface can be quite fast. Also, you never have to worry about some errant popup or other stealing focus...

mattivc 11y ago
The reason a lot of Norwegian doctors cling to their DOS interfaces is not because of age, or a resistance to upgrade. I have discussed the topic of medical software with my father extensively, who is a M.D. in a rural town in Norway. The reason is efficiency. As a doctor you are required to look up a lot of information on the patient, while maintaining a conversation with them. This is only really possible with a keyboard only interface. The older DOS systems does this, and the newer GUI based packages largely does not.
- weland 11y ago
  I can confirm this. I have an acquiantance who is a medic, far away from Norway. He's in the same boat. A few years ago, when they switched to their new system, he mentioned to me that one of the reasons he's so unhappy with the new system is that he cannot talk to the patient while looking up his information. He has to stop and focus on the screen. This introduces some bouts of awkward silence which is all the more unpleasant when the guy you're talking to is worried about his health.
- toothbrush 11y ago
  Cool, someone should write an Emacs mode for them! I am very sympathetic to the arguments for using a keyboard-only interface, i try to achieve that on my own computer as much as possible, too.
  - 11y ago

chanux 11y ago

The first thing I thought seeing the picture in that article: "Classified info on a Lenovo Thinkpad?"

semi-extrinsic 11y ago
From looking at the webpage of TFA's author I'd say it's very probably airgapped and running some BSD flavor.
- fegu 11y ago
  Airgap is a requirement, I will update the article. Thanks for reminding me.

josteink 11y ago

> A floppy copy workstation in 2015. The retro handset is just there for giggles. As a norwegian, I have to say its good to see these guys have a sense of humour about their (honestly) pointless work :)

provemewrong 11y ago

> Fun fact: while floppies are indestructible Haha, oh boy.

mseebach 11y ago

> Norwegian doctors get one 3.5″ floppy in the mail from the government [..] every month. For a long time this applied to all of them, but for about the last decade a secure electronic option has been available. Problem is, a lot of doctors love their MSDOS-based electronic journals and haven’t switched yet. > The government seems to finally close down floppy distribution at the beginning of 2016, forcing any remaining doctors over to newer electronic patient journals. Sadly, the chosen strategy is just to offer paper printouts instead, requiring error-prone rekeying at the doctor’s office. It seems like these guys have a potential business in selling a device/appliance to bridge the "secure electronic option" to floppy gap (without relying on paper): Basically make doctors do this work themselves. A laptop (running locked down Linux for security reasons) and a USB floppy drive. You can easily charge 10x hardware cost, so no need to skimp, and you can support by exchanging the entire setup via post.

amelius 11y ago
The problem could be that the solution must be "open", so there is no potential for lock in, hence not much money to be made.
- mseebach 11y ago
  It's not a huge, long-term business, for sure. There are only n doctors still running the DOS app in the entire market, and that number will only ever shrink. The lock-in is provided by the extreme niche-ness of the market the conservatism of these doctors. These floppy-guys have a unique position in the market, they know exactly what to do -- they are basically the only ones who can credibly pitch these doctors at all. Once they've bought a solution that actually works, is stable and compliant etc., these doctors are not going to shop around to save maybe $1-2000/year (or whatever you can charge in maintenance), it's simply not worth their while and the risk. Remember, these are not scrappy little outfits, they have cash to spend, and they will spend it if you can supply stability and continuity.