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Thanks HN: Glowforge will open-source its firmware

279 points by danshapiro 11y ago

kposehn 11y ago
Good move in response to a rather vociferous desire.
trishume 11y ago
Oh man, this is the second best thing I could have hoped for after their earlier announcement today. The best thing would have been also open sourcing their cloud software, but I can see how they'd be reluctant to do that given that it is a competitive advantage over other laser cutter manufacturers. I'm really really tempted to buy one now.
- tajen 11y ago
  That would be a great move for VolksWagen too ;)
monochromatic 11y ago
I love to see this kind of immediate, positive, appropriate response to feedback.
aaronbrethorst 11y ago
PS: no pentalobe screws either. This makes me happy :) Also, any chance you might demo one of these at Metrix on Capitol Hill sometime? I'd love to check it out in person without having to pay $2,000 first!
- danshapiro 11y ago
  I cut (engraved?) my teeth on the laser at Metrix - love to get them one at some point soon, but it'll be after preorder campaign is over I'm afraid. We'll be at the Geekwire event next week if you'd like to check it out, though. (and are at Maker Faire in NYC this weekend for those eastwardly inclined)
  - voltagex_ 11y ago
    Any way-out future plans to offer deals to hackerspaces? makehackvoid.com in Canberra, Australia could probably make great use of one of these. (As could many others, just wanted to get a shoutout in)
  - aaronbrethorst 11y ago
    Good to know, thanks!
- userbinator 11y ago
  To be fair, other types of screw drives in the same socket-like family, e.g. Torx or hex, are a good choice since they are generally more resistant to stripping. Then again, the type of fasteners is not at all an obstacle for someone wanting to hack around on a machine like this. The software is the far more important part.
vvanders 11y ago
Class act.
ISL 11y ago
Awesome! Thank you. It's a daunting thing, at first, to open up a proprietary security blanket. May the market treat you well!
uniclaude 11y ago
This is outstanding. I want to order one of those lasers now. Not only because I like the product, but also because I want to support companies going this way. I'm sure this will also help them attract talent. Amidst this patents/walled gardens/copyrights debate, someone saying: "If you buy it, it’s yours – you should be able to do what you want with it." is someone you might want to work with. Privacy advocates feeling scared to be tracked using their laser cutter will also welcome the news favorably.
- gohrt 11y ago
  See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10276430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10276430 They open source the firmware because the firmware is a dumb client; all the logic that controls the laser (aka makes it not set your house on fire) is hidden in the cloud.
  - uniclaude 11y ago
    Thanks for presenting a balanced opinion. I still find their position quite fair (looks like there lies their real business model) even though I wish they'd be more clear about it. Everything makes more sense now.
  - IshKebab 11y ago
    But that logic is hardly complicated. The firmware is the bit that would be really annoying to reverse engineer. The rest anyone can write fairly easily.
logn 11y ago
Might want to consider Affero GPL. Without that, there's a possibility some competitor comes along, improves the software, puts it behind a cloud-only service, and never publishes the code.
- gohrt 11y ago
  That's... Glowforge's business model. The high-level control logic software is in the cloud.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - logn 11y ago
    That shouldn't make it Affero GPL incompatible as long as they make the code available. Regardless, if they own the copyright, they don't need to follow Affero GPL despite licensing it that way; it only applies to those who don't have copyright. edit: ok it's only the firmware that's being open sourced. Still I think my original comment applies. Maybe a competitor improves code from the firmware and puts it behind the cloud.
    - wutwatt 11y ago
      Considering the firmware is the code that directly interfaces with the hardware, how would it even be possible to move it to the cloud?
      - logn 11y ago
        You're probably right, but I don't see the harm in making firmware Affero GPL. For instance, intimate communication between two programs tends trigger GPL provisions. So there's an argument to be made that if a competitor improves the firmware for another device with a different cloud-powered backend, then that backend code must be released if the firmware is Affero GPL. But my original thought was that maybe there's some useful logic in the firmware that's extracted to cloud. And on that point, it's pretty speculative.
tmuir 11y ago
This doesn't change the huge red flag that should give prospective customers pause. The device will still operate only as long as Glowforge's servers stay up. If there are internet outages, or the company goes out of business, the device will no longer function as a laser cutter. The firmware is a very small piece of the puzzle. The cloud service is being portrayed as doing all of the heavy lifting. That's image processing, CAM, toolpath creation, and motion optimization/lookahead. Once the motion is optimized so that the motion system will move as fast as possible within its acceleration limits, the result is a list of explicit instructions for the motion system and laser. Accelerate at rate A for T seconds. After X steps, pulse the laser at a power level of P. Thus, the firmware simply processes these instructions, and actuates the motors and lasers. That's not to say the firmware is trivial. But in comparison to the overall codebase, it is a very small chunk of the complete CNC system. I'm not arguing that Glowforge is under any obligation to open source anything. But this is a fairly small concession that does not address the main concern that most people have voiced, the inability to run the complete system on your local machine.
- Animats 11y ago
  "The firmware is a very small piece of the puzzle." Probably right. What's needed is source code escrow for the cloud service, so if Glowforge tanks, the code goes open source.
  - jakobegger 11y ago
    This won't help you if your internet connection is down.
    - DannoHung 11y ago
      Sure it will. GCE just runs containers.
    - GauntletWizard 11y ago
      With source code escrow of their services, you can presumably use dns redirection of their site and the open source version of their software to run your own local instance of the stack. Truly Open Source doesn't mean runs without any other components, it just means you can replace any of the components yourself.
dahdum 11y ago
This is a great step in the right direction, but I wonder how difficult it may be to actually use considering they've removed so much of normal laser hardware. Anyone know how feasible it will be to control it? http://techcrunch.com/2015/05/20/glowforge-series-a/ http://techcrunch.com/2015/05/20/glowforge-series-a/ How defensible is Glowforge’s laser cutting tech? Shapiro says the key innovation the team has come up with is moving a large number of functions out of the hardware itself and into the cloud. “We have ripped out huge amounts of hardware from the machine — from a typical laser design, and replaced those with software that we run in cloud servers instead of running locally,” he explains. One example is the motion controller board used on many traditional laser cutters to translate whatever line the person wants cutting or engraving into a series of electrical pulses that choreograph the motor. Instead of using that type of component, which Shapiro says starts at $400, or even using a cheaper alternative controller like an Arduino, the Glowforge uses cloud software to do the grunt work. “We simply send down the ones and zeros for the motor to the machine over the internet which reduces the cost by a factor of 100,” he notes. “The thing that’s relatively easy to clone is the hardware, although we have some interesting innovations and patents there, but the place where we think we can really add a great deal of value is in the software,” he adds.
- danshapiro 11y ago
  (Glowforge CEO/cofounder here) Glowforge has enough horsepower to work offline if someone built the custom firmware, albeit without the features that differentiate it from a traditional CNC laser cutter/engraver. We started out the design with a minimal microcontroller but decided to bump up the capabilities of the onboard processor along the way.
  - burnte 11y ago
    Why "the cloud"? Certainly there's more than enough horsepower on my local PC and enough bandwidth in my USB cable to direct it, or even better, allow my PC to queue up the movement instructions and just hold them in a memory buffer in the cutter. Then I can use it without my internet connection being up.
fit2rule 11y ago
It great that they're open-sourcing the firmware, but its still not great that the product depends on "a cloud" in order to operate. I hope that is one of the very first things that gets addressed by contributors .. as someone who has orbited around some nice laser firmware projects in the past, I'll be interested in their source release and see if I can help in some way .. so, kudo's for the open source! Now lets get rid of that cloud ..
binoyxj 11y ago
Can watch the latest video tour here https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/videos/10153613547769655/ https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/videos/101536135477696...
markvdb 11y ago
Outstanding! I say this as the owner of a 100% FOSS & open hardware laser cutter...
topazas 11y ago
I want this so badly... still no money :/
analognoise 11y ago
I'm glad I found this, but saddened it relies on "the cloud". I'd rather support a company that didn't have this silly restriction - I'm not willing to throw a few grand down the toilet if somebody else's servers stop working.

279 points by danshapiro 11y ago

Good move in response to a rather vociferous desire.

Oh man, this is the second best thing I could have hoped for after their earlier announcement today. The best thing would have been also open sourcing their cloud software, but I can see how they'd be reluctant to do that given that it is a competitive advantage over other laser cutter manufacturers. I'm really really tempted to buy one now.

tajen 11y ago
That would be a great move for VolksWagen too ;)

monochromatic 11y ago

I love to see this kind of immediate, positive, appropriate response to feedback.

aaronbrethorst 11y ago

PS: no pentalobe screws either. This makes me happy :) Also, any chance you might demo one of these at Metrix on Capitol Hill sometime? I'd love to check it out in person without having to pay $2,000 first!

danshapiro 11y ago
I cut (engraved?) my teeth on the laser at Metrix - love to get them one at some point soon, but it'll be after preorder campaign is over I'm afraid. We'll be at the Geekwire event next week if you'd like to check it out, though. (and are at Maker Faire in NYC this weekend for those eastwardly inclined)
- voltagex_ 11y ago
  Any way-out future plans to offer deals to hackerspaces? makehackvoid.com in Canberra, Australia could probably make great use of one of these. (As could many others, just wanted to get a shoutout in)
- aaronbrethorst 11y ago
  Good to know, thanks!
userbinator 11y ago
To be fair, other types of screw drives in the same socket-like family, e.g. Torx or hex, are a good choice since they are generally more resistant to stripping. Then again, the type of fasteners is not at all an obstacle for someone wanting to hack around on a machine like this. The software is the far more important part.

vvanders 11y ago

Class act.

ISL 11y ago

Awesome! Thank you. It's a daunting thing, at first, to open up a proprietary security blanket. May the market treat you well!

uniclaude 11y ago

This is outstanding. I want to order one of those lasers now. Not only because I like the product, but also because I want to support companies going this way. I'm sure this will also help them attract talent. Amidst this patents/walled gardens/copyrights debate, someone saying: "If you buy it, it’s yours – you should be able to do what you want with it." is someone you might want to work with. Privacy advocates feeling scared to be tracked using their laser cutter will also welcome the news favorably.

gohrt 11y ago
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10276430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10276430 They open source the firmware because the firmware is a dumb client; all the logic that controls the laser (aka makes it not set your house on fire) is hidden in the cloud.
- uniclaude 11y ago
  Thanks for presenting a balanced opinion. I still find their position quite fair (looks like there lies their real business model) even though I wish they'd be more clear about it. Everything makes more sense now.
- IshKebab 11y ago
  But that logic is hardly complicated. The firmware is the bit that would be really annoying to reverse engineer. The rest anyone can write fairly easily.

logn 11y ago

Might want to consider Affero GPL. Without that, there's a possibility some competitor comes along, improves the software, puts it behind a cloud-only service, and never publishes the code.

gohrt 11y ago
That's... Glowforge's business model. The high-level control logic software is in the cloud.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- logn 11y ago
  That shouldn't make it Affero GPL incompatible as long as they make the code available. Regardless, if they own the copyright, they don't need to follow Affero GPL despite licensing it that way; it only applies to those who don't have copyright. edit: ok it's only the firmware that's being open sourced. Still I think my original comment applies. Maybe a competitor improves code from the firmware and puts it behind the cloud.
  - wutwatt 11y ago
    Considering the firmware is the code that directly interfaces with the hardware, how would it even be possible to move it to the cloud?
    - logn 11y ago
      You're probably right, but I don't see the harm in making firmware Affero GPL. For instance, intimate communication between two programs tends trigger GPL provisions. So there's an argument to be made that if a competitor improves the firmware for another device with a different cloud-powered backend, then that backend code must be released if the firmware is Affero GPL. But my original thought was that maybe there's some useful logic in the firmware that's extracted to cloud. And on that point, it's pretty speculative.

tmuir 11y ago

This doesn't change the huge red flag that should give prospective customers pause. The device will still operate only as long as Glowforge's servers stay up. If there are internet outages, or the company goes out of business, the device will no longer function as a laser cutter. The firmware is a very small piece of the puzzle. The cloud service is being portrayed as doing all of the heavy lifting. That's image processing, CAM, toolpath creation, and motion optimization/lookahead. Once the motion is optimized so that the motion system will move as fast as possible within its acceleration limits, the result is a list of explicit instructions for the motion system and laser. Accelerate at rate A for T seconds. After X steps, pulse the laser at a power level of P. Thus, the firmware simply processes these instructions, and actuates the motors and lasers. That's not to say the firmware is trivial. But in comparison to the overall codebase, it is a very small chunk of the complete CNC system. I'm not arguing that Glowforge is under any obligation to open source anything. But this is a fairly small concession that does not address the main concern that most people have voiced, the inability to run the complete system on your local machine.

Animats 11y ago
"The firmware is a very small piece of the puzzle." Probably right. What's needed is source code escrow for the cloud service, so if Glowforge tanks, the code goes open source.
- jakobegger 11y ago
  This won't help you if your internet connection is down.
  - DannoHung 11y ago
    Sure it will. GCE just runs containers.
  - GauntletWizard 11y ago
    With source code escrow of their services, you can presumably use dns redirection of their site and the open source version of their software to run your own local instance of the stack. Truly Open Source doesn't mean runs without any other components, it just means you can replace any of the components yourself.

dahdum 11y ago

This is a great step in the right direction, but I wonder how difficult it may be to actually use considering they've removed so much of normal laser hardware. Anyone know how feasible it will be to control it? http://techcrunch.com/2015/05/20/glowforge-series-a/ http://techcrunch.com/2015/05/20/glowforge-series-a/ How defensible is Glowforge’s laser cutting tech? Shapiro says the key innovation the team has come up with is moving a large number of functions out of the hardware itself and into the cloud. “We have ripped out huge amounts of hardware from the machine — from a typical laser design, and replaced those with software that we run in cloud servers instead of running locally,” he explains. One example is the motion controller board used on many traditional laser cutters to translate whatever line the person wants cutting or engraving into a series of electrical pulses that choreograph the motor. Instead of using that type of component, which Shapiro says starts at $400, or even using a cheaper alternative controller like an Arduino, the Glowforge uses cloud software to do the grunt work. “We simply send down the ones and zeros for the motor to the machine over the internet which reduces the cost by a factor of 100,” he notes. “The thing that’s relatively easy to clone is the hardware, although we have some interesting innovations and patents there, but the place where we think we can really add a great deal of value is in the software,” he adds.

danshapiro 11y ago
(Glowforge CEO/cofounder here) Glowforge has enough horsepower to work offline if someone built the custom firmware, albeit without the features that differentiate it from a traditional CNC laser cutter/engraver. We started out the design with a minimal microcontroller but decided to bump up the capabilities of the onboard processor along the way.
- burnte 11y ago
  Why "the cloud"? Certainly there's more than enough horsepower on my local PC and enough bandwidth in my USB cable to direct it, or even better, allow my PC to queue up the movement instructions and just hold them in a memory buffer in the cutter. Then I can use it without my internet connection being up.

fit2rule 11y ago

It great that they're open-sourcing the firmware, but its still not great that the product depends on "a cloud" in order to operate. I hope that is one of the very first things that gets addressed by contributors .. as someone who has orbited around some nice laser firmware projects in the past, I'll be interested in their source release and see if I can help in some way .. so, kudo's for the open source! Now lets get rid of that cloud ..

binoyxj 11y ago

Can watch the latest video tour here https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/videos/10153613547769655/ https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/videos/101536135477696...

markvdb 11y ago

Outstanding! I say this as the owner of a 100% FOSS & open hardware laser cutter...

topazas 11y ago

I want this so badly... still no money :/

analognoise 11y ago

I'm glad I found this, but saddened it relies on "the cloud". I'd rather support a company that didn't have this silly restriction - I'm not willing to throw a few grand down the toilet if somebody else's servers stop working.