6 ms·

Living in Holland, where everyone does online transactions with iDeal, I find it hard to understand why the rest of the world is using credit card payments at a

Living in Holland, where everyone does online transactions with iDeal, I find it hard to understand why the rest of the world is using credit card payments at all, for anything. It is massively insecure, it's expensive for the merchant, and theft is ignored (when millions of stored creditcard records are stolen, those cards are not invalidated and replaced?). This is all at the cost of customers and other merchants. I'll keep trying to avoid using a creditcard as much as possible and use other payment methods when I can, both online and offline. And yes, when implementing payments on a website, use a service that does all of the complex things for you, and never store sensitive data yourself.

pc86 11y ago
There are many reasons to use credit cards, and some of what you said is just not accurate: - The vast majority (probably 95%+) of cards have rewards built in. Everything from miles to redeem on travel and accommodations to the most common being cash back credited against your account. These can range anywhere from 1% to 5% outside of special promotions where you typically get even more. - They offer increased consumer protection in the form of warranties on items you buy in addition to the manufacturer's warranty. - They offer increased consumer protection in the handling of charge backs, fraud prevention and being able to easily dispute charges (typically online). - Of course if a card is stolen the number is invalidated and the physical card replaced - I don't know where you got the idea that this doesn't happen. - None of this is at direct cost to the customer - assuming you pay off your statement balance prior to the due date, you are not charged interest and unless you have a card with an annual fee (most do not and if you have even decent credit it's trivial to upgrade to a card without one) all these features are free.
- greedo 11y ago
  Those benefits don't come without a cost though, and not just from cardholders who do carry a balance and pay interest. The merchant fees, chargebacks and other costs get tacked on to their COG.
- Maarten88 11y ago
  > None of this is at direct cost to the customer Then who do you think is paying for those rewards/cashbacks? Who is paying for the extra warranty? Who is paying for the costs of the chargebacks and the replacement of cards that get stolen by the millions? The answer could be you, creditcard users who dont pay off in time, or people who use other payment methods. It certainly isn't the banks or the merchant who's paying all this.
  - pravda 11y ago
    It is the merchants. Credit card fees are paid by merchants. It comes out of profits.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      ...which leads to higher prices charged to consumers. Credit cards and their benefits exact a roughly 3% surcharge on ecommerce in the aggregate.
Reason077 11y ago
iDEAL is fine for transactions between a Dutch client and a Dutch merchant. Other countries also have similar, local payment solutions which bypass credit card processors (e.g. POLi in Australia and New Zealand) But it does nothing for a business like Candy Japan which sells to a global audience. The advantage of credit cards is that they are one payment system that works pretty much everywhere, worldwide. Also, you should realise that, as a customer, you typically don't have the same chargeback rights when using a banking service like iDEAL compared to what you get with a Credit card. This can be a big deal when, for example, a merchant goes bankrupt before delivering your purchase.
- germanier 11y ago
  > global audience That's the reason they recommended to use a payment gateway that implements all those local payment solutions. For example, in Germany you loose a lot of customers if you don't offer direct debit (ELV) as many don't own a credit card (and don't want to). > you typically don't have the same chargeback rights when using a banking service like iDEAL This heavily depends on the service. For example, the upcoming German Paydirekt will offer better chargeback service than most German credit cards (where you typically don't enjoy the US-style "anything is reversible" type of protection).
  - bemmu 11y ago
    Also I need recurring payments. Not sure if those would be possible with ELV / iDEAL.
    - germanier 11y ago
      For ELV sure. That's the German implementation of SEPA direct debit (which should work almost everywhere in Europe). You can even charge different amount each time, provided you inform the customer before you attempt to charge. For example, I pay my electricity and phone bills by this system, just like my purchases on Amazon and almost everything else that is provided by German companies (just like most people). Don't know about iDEAL, but I think that wouldn't work. The thing: If you don't implement all of this yourself, you don't need to worry about the details. There are services that happily do this for you.
rplnt 11y ago
Having visited NL, my card was practically useless. Any other country no problem, but Netherlands? So I don't understand you really. That being said, direct payment gateways are common, but they require cooperation with banks. There's probably hundreds of them and only make sense on local market where you can have on or two implemented to satisfy 80%+ of customers (and others will just use regular card).
- airza 11y ago
  You might find it pretty useless in japan, other than at 7/11 ATMs. They have some kind of weird specific payment system as well.
- LeonM 11y ago
  That's the whole point, in the Netherlands we use debit cards (known as 'PIN cards' to the locals) instead of credit cards. Usually these are Maestro cards. I don't know the exact number, but as a Dutch resident I guess that >99% of all POS transactions are done using such card, not a credit card. Cashiers in most common shops probably don't even know how to accept a payment by credit card, so the'll just refuse. Meastro cards are usually protected by a PIN and require a POS system to be used. This was a problem for e-commerce, so the Dutch banks participated in iDEAL. It's basically a redirect from the merchants website to the bank site of the customer, where they use their own cardreader and debit card to validate the transaction before being redirected back to the site of the merchant.
  - kalleboo 11y ago
    In many countries (such as where I'm from, Sweden, or where I live now, Japan), debit cards and credit cards are interchangeable, and you can't even tell by looking at the card if it's debit or credit. They're both VISA or MasterCard branded, and what's backing it is only the business of the cardholder, not the merchant. I remember Maestro cards in Sweden as being for under-18's, and then when you become an adult you get a VISA/MasterCard debit card instead, but I don't know if that's true anymore.
    - deleted 11y ago
mikkom 11y ago
> Living in Holland, where everyone does online transactions with iDeal, I find it hard to understand why the rest of the world is using credit card payments at all, for anything. We do have both ideal type payments and credit card payments in Finland (I assume ideal is a direct bank payment to merchants account?) I still personally always use credit card if possible as it gives the customer extra layer of security. For example in cases where you purchase something quite expensive let's say a holiday package if the company does not deliver the holiday, goes bankrupt etc you will get the money back with CC but NOT if you have paid directly via web bank payment form. Same thing with online fraud, if you pay to fraudulent website it's going to be extremely hard to get your money back if you have paid it directly to scammers bank account.

pc86 11y ago

There are many reasons to use credit cards, and some of what you said is just not accurate: - The vast majority (probably 95%+) of cards have rewards built in. Everything from miles to redeem on travel and accommodations to the most common being cash back credited against your account. These can range anywhere from 1% to 5% outside of special promotions where you typically get even more. - They offer increased consumer protection in the form of warranties on items you buy in addition to the manufacturer's warranty. - They offer increased consumer protection in the handling of charge backs, fraud prevention and being able to easily dispute charges (typically online). - Of course if a card is stolen the number is invalidated and the physical card replaced - I don't know where you got the idea that this doesn't happen. - None of this is at direct cost to the customer - assuming you pay off your statement balance prior to the due date, you are not charged interest and unless you have a card with an annual fee (most do not and if you have even decent credit it's trivial to upgrade to a card without one) all these features are free.

greedo 11y ago
Those benefits don't come without a cost though, and not just from cardholders who do carry a balance and pay interest. The merchant fees, chargebacks and other costs get tacked on to their COG.
Maarten88 11y ago
> None of this is at direct cost to the customer Then who do you think is paying for those rewards/cashbacks? Who is paying for the extra warranty? Who is paying for the costs of the chargebacks and the replacement of cards that get stolen by the millions? The answer could be you, creditcard users who dont pay off in time, or people who use other payment methods. It certainly isn't the banks or the merchant who's paying all this.
- pravda 11y ago
  It is the merchants. Credit card fees are paid by merchants. It comes out of profits.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    ...which leads to higher prices charged to consumers. Credit cards and their benefits exact a roughly 3% surcharge on ecommerce in the aggregate.

Reason077 11y ago

iDEAL is fine for transactions between a Dutch client and a Dutch merchant. Other countries also have similar, local payment solutions which bypass credit card processors (e.g. POLi in Australia and New Zealand) But it does nothing for a business like Candy Japan which sells to a global audience. The advantage of credit cards is that they are one payment system that works pretty much everywhere, worldwide. Also, you should realise that, as a customer, you typically don't have the same chargeback rights when using a banking service like iDEAL compared to what you get with a Credit card. This can be a big deal when, for example, a merchant goes bankrupt before delivering your purchase.

germanier 11y ago
> global audience That's the reason they recommended to use a payment gateway that implements all those local payment solutions. For example, in Germany you loose a lot of customers if you don't offer direct debit (ELV) as many don't own a credit card (and don't want to). > you typically don't have the same chargeback rights when using a banking service like iDEAL This heavily depends on the service. For example, the upcoming German Paydirekt will offer better chargeback service than most German credit cards (where you typically don't enjoy the US-style "anything is reversible" type of protection).
- bemmu 11y ago
  Also I need recurring payments. Not sure if those would be possible with ELV / iDEAL.
  - germanier 11y ago
    For ELV sure. That's the German implementation of SEPA direct debit (which should work almost everywhere in Europe). You can even charge different amount each time, provided you inform the customer before you attempt to charge. For example, I pay my electricity and phone bills by this system, just like my purchases on Amazon and almost everything else that is provided by German companies (just like most people). Don't know about iDEAL, but I think that wouldn't work. The thing: If you don't implement all of this yourself, you don't need to worry about the details. There are services that happily do this for you.

rplnt 11y ago

Having visited NL, my card was practically useless. Any other country no problem, but Netherlands? So I don't understand you really. That being said, direct payment gateways are common, but they require cooperation with banks. There's probably hundreds of them and only make sense on local market where you can have on or two implemented to satisfy 80%+ of customers (and others will just use regular card).

airza 11y ago
You might find it pretty useless in japan, other than at 7/11 ATMs. They have some kind of weird specific payment system as well.
LeonM 11y ago
That's the whole point, in the Netherlands we use debit cards (known as 'PIN cards' to the locals) instead of credit cards. Usually these are Maestro cards. I don't know the exact number, but as a Dutch resident I guess that >99% of all POS transactions are done using such card, not a credit card. Cashiers in most common shops probably don't even know how to accept a payment by credit card, so the'll just refuse. Meastro cards are usually protected by a PIN and require a POS system to be used. This was a problem for e-commerce, so the Dutch banks participated in iDEAL. It's basically a redirect from the merchants website to the bank site of the customer, where they use their own cardreader and debit card to validate the transaction before being redirected back to the site of the merchant.
- kalleboo 11y ago
  In many countries (such as where I'm from, Sweden, or where I live now, Japan), debit cards and credit cards are interchangeable, and you can't even tell by looking at the card if it's debit or credit. They're both VISA or MasterCard branded, and what's backing it is only the business of the cardholder, not the merchant. I remember Maestro cards in Sweden as being for under-18's, and then when you become an adult you get a VISA/MasterCard debit card instead, but I don't know if that's true anymore.
  - deleted 11y ago

mikkom 11y ago

> Living in Holland, where everyone does online transactions with iDeal, I find it hard to understand why the rest of the world is using credit card payments at all, for anything. We do have both ideal type payments and credit card payments in Finland (I assume ideal is a direct bank payment to merchants account?) I still personally always use credit card if possible as it gives the customer extra layer of security. For example in cases where you purchase something quite expensive let's say a holiday package if the company does not deliver the holiday, goes bankrupt etc you will get the money back with CC but NOT if you have paid directly via web bank payment form. Same thing with online fraud, if you pay to fraudulent website it's going to be extremely hard to get your money back if you have paid it directly to scammers bank account.