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Why Do We Admire Mobsters?
- verytrivial 11y agoWho's this "we"? They are parasites.
- venomsnake 11y agoBut also they are tough guys that get shit done. And the society have always had a soft spot for them. And since the stuff they do is usually business - they get a pass.
- HiYaBarbie 11y ago> They are parasites That's right, and so are lawyers, accountants, and any other profession whose existence is predicated on the government making us jump through pointless bullshit hoops.
- jedrek 11y agoThe tens of millions of people who watch stuff like Goodfellas, The Godfather and The Sopranos.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- blowski 11y agoWhenever you see "we" in a title, it doesn't mean the author believes every single member of the human race feels that way. They're just saying "a lot of people feel that way". Many people do sympathise with the mob - my grandmother is very nostalgic about when the Krays dominated London, and talks about it as a time when there no paedophiles or drug users.
- FilterSweep 11y ago> Whenever you see "we" in a title, it doesn't mean the author believes every single member of the human race feels that way. Good comment. Unfortunately however, it's implied in it. Do note that there is a click-baitish aspect to the title - albeit, it's a very well constructed title; it implies that if you click on the link and read the article, you are one of those who admire said criminals. I wouldn't call this a "royal we," but rather a "journalistic we." It annoys me too sometimes.... Its understandable some HN commenters who proverbially "take a step back" in their analysis are left with a bad taste in their mouth.
- amelius 11y agoExactly. There is too much praise in the media for people who act selfishly.
- thomnottom 11y agoWatching The Godfather does not mean that one admires mobsters any more than watching Downfall means one admires Hitler... Oh crap, I didn't mean to invoke Godwin so quickly. It was just an easy comparison. But seriously, someone else pointed out Walter White in Breaking Bad and, as much as I loved the show I (and the friends I spoke with) had no admiration for him in the end. We admired the storytelling not the actions.
- agumonkey 11y agoI disagree. I heard about The Sopranos and watched it a bit after the buzz peaked. I mostly hated it. I can't swallow anything related to mafiosi. Sure, the show had some brilliant ideas from time to time (the premises only were gold), and some brilliant execution (the surreal dreams). But the whole story .. I'm still angry just thinking about it. Yet millions of people watched, and bought the DVDs. Personally that's already far too much love to such a thing. Many people mention Breaking Bad, but it's a completely different situation isn't it ? it's more a 'back against the wall' / idiotic heroism thing. He didn't go there to sustain a lifestyle, he was cornered.
- icebraining 11y agoI didn't follow The Sopranos, but the people I know who loved it, did so exactly because of that contrast, especially by the protagonist. The way he could have some great qualities, and suddenly so something so horrifying; it was a jump from feeling empathy to absolute disgust in a few moments. None of my friends "admired" Tony Soprano, they found it fascinating, in the same way that you might find a venomous spider.
- thomnottom 11y agoI just wanted to point out that plenty of people watch shows and movies that focus on characters they dislike. Personally I only saw snippets of The Sopranos and had no interest in the stories or characters, however I do love the 1st 2 Godfather movies even though I find the characters to be largely horrific. In Breaking Bad, the motivation actually changes quite a bit over the course of the series. My meandering point is just to say that millions of people watching a show or movie does not automatically mean they condone the actions of the main characters or admire them in any way.
- maccard 11y agoI see them the same way as I see suits/mad men/House of Cards. They're interesting stories about interesting people.
- nilved 11y agoI've read that part of Al Capone and other Prohibition-era mobsters success was due to their offering protection from corrupt police forces. This seems prescient as time goes on.
- weland 11y agoI haven't lived in the times of Al Capone, but I have lived in a country where Al Capone-like stuff was still happening at the time, and I can confirm this. Local organized crime leaders had no more disdain for law than most policemen, prosecutors, judges or politicians. However, due to the nature of their activity, they had to maintain a reputation of honesty and reliability. People feared them, but they were generally true to their word. If you paid the protection tax, your shop was protected. Of course, the tax could be raised without any advance notice, but more astute negotiators generally managed to delay enforcement by a few weeks. But your shop was fine. Policemen, on the other hand, did nothing of that sort. Even when not actively assisting the crooks, there was no proactive protection of any kind. The police could only step in after your shop was devastated for the first time -- and even then, the usual process was that you'd file a complaint and, after the legally-required 30 days, the local police would send you a short letter saying they couldn't do anything due to lack of evidence. Assuming, that is, that the post office didn't lose the letter. Law enforcement agents were seen as very unreliable partners: sometimes they'd help civilians, sometimes they'd just stay out of it, and oftentimes they'd blatantly and obviously take the side of the mobster who was paying them to look the other way. The crooks, on the other hand, were seen as reliable. Yes, they were ruthless, but you could generally count on their help, if you were willing to pay the price.
- meric 11y agoWe talk about police, shopkeepers, mobsters, politicians as if they're separate factions in society. I just want to add this: I've travelled to this country (GDP per capita ~$1500) and stayed with this huge family. In the city I stayed in, there was one suburb where every house was part of the same family with the same last name. There must have been 500 to 1000 members, who knows. Inside one family there were policemen, shopkeepers, maids, factory owners, factory workers, businessmen, and family members with connections to mobsters (I couldn't pin down the mobsters and politicians among them exactly). In this country family is life. All members of the family generally love and respect everyone else in the same family. Their family ties are a lot strong than ties they make at their "work". The first thing we did when I arrived to stay with the family was to meet the mobster of the city so as to protect me from everyone else. One of the mobster's primary function was to act as a middleman for paying "fees" to the right politician to get bureaucratic matters resolved efficiently. (e.g. getting a visa in a few days instead of a month or two without "fee". In a way, they are lobbyists the common people can afford). The family ties cut across economic, social, and political boundaries. The fact that mobsters thrive there means they are part of the stable equilibrium. It wouldn't be possible to say "Let's get rid of the mobsters" - that's like saying "Let's get rid of the lobbyists from the US.". Politicians are good at politics, and often have little technical knowledge of the world outside their workplace. That's why they rely on lobbyists and mobsters to tell them what to do. Often, the law does not describe the entirety of the world.
- zoren 11y agoHow is this hacker news?
- mattmanser 11y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html - If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. It is an interesting question.
- glibgil 11y agoHN is full of twenty-something sycophants. This is very topical.
- cousin_it 11y agoSame reason you admire rappers. High animal status.
- blounderbluss 11y agoDon't know why this is being downvoted. Maybe it's your wording. If you change rappers to gangsta rappers, I think this is quite true - in fact this is the heart of it. For all our civilized behavior, we are still underneath it animals. [Some] gangsters are alpha dogs in a sense so there is a small part of us that admires that.
- digi_owl 11y agoReminds me of an article by Adam Curtis, talking (in part) about how people glamorize the landed aristocracy of Britain. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-385e-808f-c9c7c38d1cb7 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-... There seems that even though we have long since left the ape hill, the ape hill has not left us. We keep defaulting back to power politics whenever push comes to shove...
- cousin_it 11y agoSame reason you admire rappers. High animal status.
- loudmax 11y agoWe admire high achievers. Watching fictional Walter White or fictionalized Pablo Escobar build their drug empires is exciting, especially given the emotional distance alluded to in the article. A series about major capitalists or political figures could be interesting too, but not as inherently exciting without the danger of sudden violence. A story about mid- or low-level crooks might be exciting, but nobody would say we're admiring these characters.
- SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago"The Wolf Of Wall Street" springs to mind as well. Hideous behaviour that ruined thousands of ordinary people's lives, but lots of people can't help but admire people like Mr. Belfort - at least as portrayed in the movie - for their success (myself included). It's an interesting phenomenon.
- tim333 11y agoI blame evolution. It's wired us to be attracted by power and fame and not worry too much about distant strangers.
- brainburn 11y agos/blame/praise :0 In the end only one's own gene-survival matters.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago> "In the end only one's own gene-survival matters." Really? Speaking personally, if I could make a large lasting contribution to improve society, but had to give up my own gene-survival to do it, then I would do it. People value different things, there isn't one be-all and end-all.
- aianus 11y agoIf our ancestors had thought like that the human race would not exist as we know it. It's very much the exception to the rule to value 'societal progress' over one's own family.
- jokoon 11y agoBecause mobsters can be better politicians for their local citizens. Pablo Escobar actually gave money away to columbians. When you think about the columbian drug trade, it was an actual mean to take money from the US to Columbia. I don't see why columbians would fight it if it didn't cause that much violence. Of course until the government and the DEA tried to stop him, then of course people would like him less. So it really all depend how people perceive those criminals. You could just think that criminals are just people seizing a political opportunity to improve their neighborhood or city by other means. Prohibition was creating an opportunity just like the drug war did.
- codingdave 11y agoYou can always tell who actually lived around mobsters vs. who has only heard stories. Admiration comes from those who have only heard stories.
- josefresco 11y agoYou're kidding right? Within the neighborhood that mobsters/gangsters rule there is typically widespread "admiration" from the residents. Some are just afraid, but many youngsters grow up idealizing these individuals for their success and power. This also allows/enables the criminals to remain in power.
- blounderbluss 11y agoI take it you have actually lived in one of these neighborhoods and not that you're summizing this from something you've read our watched on TV. Fear is quite different from admiration. There are a few who aspire to the lifestyle and the 'respect' it brings but most ordinary law abiding people despise the gangsters/mobsters/gangbangers who make their lives so miserable. It's like living under a dictatorship or in Soviet Russia. Fear and silence doesn't mean admiration or willing complicity.
- josefresco 11y agoJohn Gotti was widely "loved" by the same community he terrorized. There are countless examples of this throughout history. Certainly, a segment of the population is simply scared, but fear alone is/was not enough to keep power.
- akshat_h 11y agoI think it also comes from how they can act on urges directly. People are (sometimes)frustrated by their lives, and a mobster seems like it is a glamorous life where you can shoot anyone you don't like. To add to that psychopathic characters who can speak their mind without consequence like Sherlock etc are also admired quite a bit. I am of course talking here about romanticism in movies and literature, and not real life ones.
- louithethrid 11y agoThey are a proto-state, privatly organized, and as thus show that a state is nothing permanent and his violence monopoly can and is challenged. Thus, the coward in us roots for the anarchist life the mobster lives. The sad thing is that those repressed beeings who admire them, will also cheer for the gallows for this guys, once they get caught. And also for gallows for innocents. Doesent matter who, as long as frustration can be vented, and mobverment has lifted protection from the beeing
- skapadia 11y agoHow many people don't like money and power? We tend to highlight these aspects of any career (even if there are other negative aspects that far outweigh the benefits). "Get rich quick" schemes are always popular.
- imakesnowflakes 11y agoWhy? Because they command respect from others, which is one of the prerequisite for becoming a mobster in the first place.
- blounderbluss 11y agoThis. Sometime ago I had to deal with a flippant waiter/busboy at a restaurant in a slightly rougher part of town, and a manager who didn't take me too seriously. I felt very small. I remember thinking Tony Soprano wouldn't put up with this.
- jcslzr 11y agowe envy that they have a guiltless conscience, read the scene with the 2 killers in the tower of Richard III
- Amorymeltzer 11y agoShort answer: Prohibition Long answer: Americans REALLY hated prohibition. Mobsters fought the man when it was cool to fight the man.
- grandalf 11y agoThere is really very little difference between the mafia and legitimate governance. Smaller organizations lack the propaganda reach and expertise to sanitize their actions and so they are classified as criminals. Larger ones have hordes of academics, journalists, philosophers, etc., proclaiming the moral righteousness of their use of lethal force and intimidation (see the "Bush Doctrine"). There is no such thing as politics without force, and force requires intimidation, killing, extortion, etc. Just like the shopkeeper who grudgingly but willingly pays the mafia for "protection", we pay taxes on threat of jail time for "infrastructure" and "education", etc. For all but the elite, education is just daycare and training for serfdom. It's amazing how humans love the strong leader (Trump is capitalizing on this) and how we love to take sides against and enemy or other (sports, etc.) These are animal tendencies that we still embrace and that still have tremendous impact on us in spite of our large primate brains. In the third world, politicians travel around with a few dozen soldiers carrying machine guns. Our leaders travel in a motorcade with limousines, to hide the raw projection of power from public view. But to an adversary it's a formidable show of force.
- jamespo 11y agoWhy is infrastructure in quotes? Are roads, healthcare, police, fire service, etc imaginary?
- grandalf 11y agoA very tiny percentage taxes actually pays for things that qualify as infrastructure. The rest pays for things that are far less transparent and far more corrupt(able), not to mention blatant wealth transfers to influential interest groups.
- furytrader 11y agoBy influential interest groups, do you mean Social Security, Welfare, Medicare and Medicaid? Because that's roughly 60% of Federal spending.
- 11y ago
- gopowerranger 11y agoWhat you mean "we"? Much of this is just excitement added to a boring life, or curiosity, and should not be confused with "admiration". After watching or reading about such mobsters, I find I am disgusted, and hope I never come in contact with such a lot.
- agumonkey 11y agoThey're still far too popular culturally considering their lifestyle. Most of the mafiosi movies are praised. Which lead me to think that people secretly loved the idea behind the mafia. They decide to make their own rules and ensure their own "well being"[1], push the environment as much as it can take; and somehow it might appeal to people. After all, deep down, it's all about 'me' first. ps: add a sense of family and tradition, and you have a strong recipe. [1] morally relative of course
- icebraining 11y agoMost of the mafiosi movies are praised. Which lead me to think that people secretly loved the idea behind the mafia. Many films about natural disasters have also been praised. Enjoying the film does not mean one loves the characters in it.
- chipsy 11y agoWhat all fiction tends to do - crime stories, disasters, horror, action, romance - is make ordinary life look relatively muted. Maybe you don't want to become a mafioso in real life, but you do want to feel validated in your more minor lawbreaking, your small rebellions against authority, etc. Plenty of teenagers want to imagine themselves being action heroes, with a "simple" life full of glorifying adventures where people die but not them - an escape from the immediate problems of their everyday existence. As they get older, most of them feel less inclined to see the world burn, and so reinterpret the same stories in a more troubled way. But in the moment, it's always about being "so badass" or whatnot. A person you could be, if you were just a little less inhibited by things like emotion and caring for others. And that's the second part of it - that you can uphold "glorified bad guys" as part of an elaborate rationalization process to ignore your own failings, praising their every motion while distancing yourself from the idea you are also bad.
- yitchelle 11y agoI don't think admiration is the right word here. It is more fascination, trivial interests and for the sensational nature of their lifestyle. Only kids who don't know better or can't see a future path would admire (I use that term very loosely here) these mobsters. When I was living in Melbourne during the gang wars, the folks were terrified in getting in the cross fire, but the city were gripped with a fascination of their life style and events. Admiration, very little.
- ericjang 11y agoI think the psychological distance only partially explains the reversal in public sentiment from scorn to adoration. Obesity was never a serious problem in the communities I have lived in. The U.S's obesity epidemic is an abstract concept to me (as I have never experienced it first-hand), and yet I don't have any nostalgia for it. Surely, it must be more than abstraction and omertà. Some drug organizations do not brand themselves with a public services front - see the TED talk by Rodrigo Canales http://www.ted.com/talks/rodrigo_canales_the_deadly_genius_of_drug_cartels?language=en http://www.ted.com/talks/rodrigo_canales_the_deadly_genius_o.... I only speak for myself, but I like crime movies/drama for the allure of ruthless power. It's a unique sort of power that can only be obtained illegally, and at some great moral expense. This Faustian device makes for intriguing plots. Who else can have a mountain of cocaine? Who else can execute business with such brutality? What other line of work involves Zero Halliburton cases stuffed with Benjamins, to go with high-powered handguns and sharp suits? These are proxies for power that a pleb like myself can barely begin to comprehend. There's a scene in the Godfather Part II that I really like, when the nervous money-grubbing landlord comes into Don Corleone's office and gives him cash so that a previously disagreeable tenant can stay in his inn. The absurdity of the scene belies Corelone's power like the tip of an iceberg, and it's visually interesting to see a normal-looking guy wield such mysterious power. This is echoed by the common "crime lord is the manager of a pizzaria by day" trope (Breaking Bad, Drive, Road to Perdition), where a seemingly weak front has a hidden-dragon kind of vibe. To summarize, I think that "psychological distance" theory only carries the audience halfway, in that they don't feel the revulsion towards mobsters because they don't deal with them personally. I think most of the allure comes from the forbidden power.
- TwoBit 11y agoPeople seem to admire ruthless leaders of the past, despite what they did. I wonder how Hitler will be considered a thousand years from now.
- lucio 11y ago"omertà, standing up to unfair authority, protecting your own", that's silly... "omertà" means: if you talk we kill you.
- beat 11y agoI really, really love gangster stories. Some of my favorite movies and tv shows are about gangsters. It's interesting to think about why. One of the things that really motivates me in these stories is the morality play aspect of it. First, the core characters tend to be very honorable people, deeply committed to family, friends, and community. But they find themselves in situations where their honor is in conflict with itself, and they are forced to choose (or clever their way out of the choice). Second, the bad guys get what's coming to them, in spectacular ways. I'm currently rewatching Sons of Anarchy, a really beautiful show. I'm on Season 3 now, and already anticipating the finale (spoiler alert). In a fantastic double murder, Opie gets to kill Stahl, the ATF agent whose lies led to his wife getting murdered by his own club. And Chibs gets to kill an incredibly powerful IRA gangster who stole his wife and daughter. It's so satisfying, to see these awful people get the punishment they so richly deserve. In a world where justice is so rare and so corrupted, to get to see villains in black and white and getting the fate they deserve is blessed relief for us. It's a true escape from reality.
- cygnus_a 11y agoI don't admire mobsters
- the_watcher 11y ago> no one holds the Son of Sam or Charles Manson in high regard. Doesn't Charles Manson famously receive love letters in jail?
- the_watcher 11y agoAlso, the main difference here is that Manson and the Son of Sam killer killed simply to kill. The mafia, while an evil organization who ruined countless lives, actually did employ people and provide services and benefits to actual people. It doesn't excuse their actions at all, but it highlights why some might be able to overlook some of their bloodiness.
- hockeybias 11y agoI don't...
- midnitewarrior 11y agoPeople always admire others who do what it takes to get what they want.