7 ms·

Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

64 points by msoad 11y ago

msoad 11y ago
I would like to get some insights from Netflix engineers instead of their PR machine. How do you like working at Netflix?
- _RPM 11y ago
  This has been asked/answered before. check this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8919343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8919343
  - adevine 11y ago
    Thanks for posting that - adds some context and color to what is essentially a PR story.
    - greggman 11y ago
      What about the story seemed like PR?
      - rifung 11y ago
        I thought it was bizarre how one of the hosts of the show just kept defending their behavior and kept making excuses for them. It's like they tried to spin it in a positive light even when the female host remarked and how cruel their practices are. Just my opinion of course, but I found it a bit strange.
ljk 11y ago
hmm isn't this what people were mad at Amazon about? and now a story praising this type of work culture? ..unless i'm missing something e: nevermind, they talk about a case of someone getting sick from overworking
- Qantourisc 11y ago
  It's not because you are not getting sick you are not suffering. Stress can have an invisible impact on your life.
biffa 11y ago
The slideshow referred to in the podcast: http://www.slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664 http://www.slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664
- PhantomGremlin 11y ago
  Definitely worth flipping thru. I found stuff I agreed with, stuff I disagreed with. Much to think about. One of my favorites: Great workplace is not espresso, lush benefits, sushi lunches, grand parties, or nice offices And the not-so-subtle dig against stack ranking: We avoid "top 30%" and "bottom 10%" rankings amongst employees We want employees to help each other, and they do
dvt 11y ago
Netflix' long term view is "Look at the bigger picture" and yet their turnover rate is an abysmal 20%-25%. I fail to see how this is looking at the bigger picture. I also fail to see how you can feel passion for Netflix (one of their company values) when, as an employee, you are basically treated like a commodity. I guess this kind of culture must be great for C-level execs like Ms. McCord, but not so great for run of the mill engineers or salespeople that favor stability for themselves and their families over a 2% increase in Netflix' bottom line.
- greggman 11y ago
  she was cut from the company herself by the very same rules
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Sounds like this karma thing.
    - SixSigma 11y ago
      Karma would also mean everyone she cut previously had also had it coming. Karma is a "blame the victim for their own problems" system of oppression.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        >Karma would also mean everyone she cut previously had also had it coming Only if everything that happens to everybody was just karma -- and whereas that might be the case in the original eastern theory about it, in the west we merely use it as a fancy way to say "payback time" and "she had it coming". Or if you like another ancient fancy word that keeps the "she had it coming" vibe without implying that everyone she previously cut also had it coming: hybris/nemesis. (Apparently Wikipedia is absolutely crap entry on the ancient Greek meaning of hubris -- where the term originated -- and its association with hateis and nemesis. This random blog entry does it better: http://wishthattheroadislong.blogspot.gr/2012/01/hubris-hatei-nemesis-tisis.html http://wishthattheroadislong.blogspot.gr/2012/01/hubris-hate... ).
rifung 11y ago
I actually found this.. disturbing. I get that sometimes you have to fire people because you are running out of money. What I can't agree with is that you can just fire people and it's fine because people's careers are long and this is just another spot in their "journey". Sure, maybe a person will work at many companies over their life. On the other hand, people work to make a living, sometimes for an entire family, and suddenly not having work can affect someone's livelihood very negatively for obvious reasons. Don't get me wrong, I understand that sometimes as a boss/manager you have to make difficult decisions for the sake of the company. But, you're just lying to yourself if you think it's not a big deal to fire someone.
- psykotic 11y ago
  I'd agree if we weren't talking about a company renowned for having among the highest base salaries in the business. Engineers who go to Netflix have a lot of other options and should know what culture they're joining.
  - timr 11y ago
    I knew that Netflix paid well, but I didn't know that they operated like this. After hearing the story about laying off the tech team to move to AWS...well, let's just say that the salaries I've heard wouldn't be enough. They recruit engineers like crazy, but they still couldn't find a use for their existing, high-performing team? That seems insane. The whole time I was listening to this, I was thinking: if a company is going to treat me like a de facto contractor, shouldn't I just ask for the (much higher) hourly risk-adjusted rate I'd demand as a contractor? Why bother with the charade of full-time employment at all?
    - lmm 11y ago
      Absolutely, ask for the rate you'd demand as a contractor. Netflix might actually be willing to pay it.
  - codeonfire 11y ago
    They might pay a lot but the apartments next to their HQ cost $3300 for a 1 bedroom apartment. That only works if they don't have a family. Housing near Netflix is going to be $5k per month. Employees also have to factor in the cost of unemployment and job search, self paid insurance and medical when between jobs, self paid retirement, relocation to and away from Netflix, etc. I would put the total extra cost for the opportunity of a 12 month stint at Netflix at $50k. Maybe they pay $200-220, but they don't give stock, don't give bonuses, and you won't be taking any vacation during those 12 months.
codeonfire 11y ago
One thing where the Netflix system breaks down is for some reason managers are never found to be useless or relevant. It becomes a small number of individual contributors trying to support a larger and larger management base. The real reason is political. The people at the top fear people rising through the ranks so they execute people like a dictatorship. At my previous job everyone with more than 15 years of experience was pushed out and people with no experience at all were brought in. Now, no one can make the case that people with no experience were not useless. They had no skills. If it were a pro sports team, it would be like bringing in little league players. The idea is the little league-ers are so excited about being in the big leagues they don't complain about the inept coaches. It makes perfect political sense to have high turnover. What managers will typically do is turn over the workforce, but also scale down the thing they are trying to accomplish to meet the capabilities of their little league-ers. All they want is to be able to claim a 'success' so they can get promoted. They cut the workforce down, cut the work down, but when they build the n-millionth + 1 music service or chat app they claim it is a revolution. Executive management says, "wow you created a music service, here have $500k" and the process starts again. No one has the cojones to point out that the company has inadvertently started to play little league because the executives are trying to ride successes as well.
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  >>The real reason is political. The people at the top fear people rising through the ranks so they execute people like a dictatorship. At my previous job everyone with more than 15 years of experience was pushed out and people with no experience at all were brought in. Actually, the real reason is usually financial. People with 15 years of experience tend to cost a lot more than new hires fresh out of college.
  - 6d0debc071 11y ago
    Assuming that both groups are competent for their level of experience: If you can't make more profit out of someone with 15 years experience than you can out of someone who is fresh out of college, then I really question how good you are at running a team. Sure, they're more expensive, but they can get a lot more done a lot faster.
brianmcconnell 11y ago
Oooh, how I love it when out of shape tech industry people use professional sports metaphors without understanding the difference between 1) a professional sports tournament system and 2) employment in a growing industry. In 1) there is an artificially limited number of slots (and money) in the "big leagues" that little leaguers are clamoring for. In 2) there is generally a shortage of people relative to the available jobs. Applying the professional sports metaphor to category 2 merely demonstrates that as a manager you are a f---t--d, which is probably why they have ridiculously bad turnover (a HQ location that might as well be in Siberia being another).
sremani 11y ago
This is difficult to listen to, but that is how it is. We can see this as a meat-grinder or you can see as living organism shunning its weak-cells either way, this is how world works and there are people who went bankrupt because they have run companies like their families, and their workers could not help them to survive beyond a point. Netflix adds value, to its customers but for what ever weird reason or hypocrisy of me, I have cancelled my Netflix subscription. Well, I used their rule of thumb, Is Netflix really critical for my well being? No. Sayonara Netflix. I have moved one.

64 points by msoad 11y ago

msoad 11y ago

I would like to get some insights from Netflix engineers instead of their PR machine. How do you like working at Netflix?

_RPM 11y ago
This has been asked/answered before. check this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8919343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8919343
- adevine 11y ago
  Thanks for posting that - adds some context and color to what is essentially a PR story.
  - greggman 11y ago
    What about the story seemed like PR?
    - rifung 11y ago
      I thought it was bizarre how one of the hosts of the show just kept defending their behavior and kept making excuses for them. It's like they tried to spin it in a positive light even when the female host remarked and how cruel their practices are. Just my opinion of course, but I found it a bit strange.

ljk 11y ago

hmm isn't this what people were mad at Amazon about? and now a story praising this type of work culture? ..unless i'm missing something e: nevermind, they talk about a case of someone getting sick from overworking

Qantourisc 11y ago
It's not because you are not getting sick you are not suffering. Stress can have an invisible impact on your life.

biffa 11y ago

The slideshow referred to in the podcast: http://www.slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664 http://www.slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664

PhantomGremlin 11y ago
Definitely worth flipping thru. I found stuff I agreed with, stuff I disagreed with. Much to think about. One of my favorites: Great workplace is not espresso, lush benefits, sushi lunches, grand parties, or nice offices And the not-so-subtle dig against stack ranking: We avoid "top 30%" and "bottom 10%" rankings amongst employees We want employees to help each other, and they do

dvt 11y ago

Netflix' long term view is "Look at the bigger picture" and yet their turnover rate is an abysmal 20%-25%. I fail to see how this is looking at the bigger picture. I also fail to see how you can feel passion for Netflix (one of their company values) when, as an employee, you are basically treated like a commodity. I guess this kind of culture must be great for C-level execs like Ms. McCord, but not so great for run of the mill engineers or salespeople that favor stability for themselves and their families over a 2% increase in Netflix' bottom line.

greggman 11y ago
she was cut from the company herself by the very same rules
- coldtea 11y ago
  Sounds like this karma thing.
  - SixSigma 11y ago
    Karma would also mean everyone she cut previously had also had it coming. Karma is a "blame the victim for their own problems" system of oppression.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      >Karma would also mean everyone she cut previously had also had it coming Only if everything that happens to everybody was just karma -- and whereas that might be the case in the original eastern theory about it, in the west we merely use it as a fancy way to say "payback time" and "she had it coming". Or if you like another ancient fancy word that keeps the "she had it coming" vibe without implying that everyone she previously cut also had it coming: hybris/nemesis. (Apparently Wikipedia is absolutely crap entry on the ancient Greek meaning of hubris -- where the term originated -- and its association with hateis and nemesis. This random blog entry does it better: http://wishthattheroadislong.blogspot.gr/2012/01/hubris-hatei-nemesis-tisis.html http://wishthattheroadislong.blogspot.gr/2012/01/hubris-hate... ).

rifung 11y ago

I actually found this.. disturbing. I get that sometimes you have to fire people because you are running out of money. What I can't agree with is that you can just fire people and it's fine because people's careers are long and this is just another spot in their "journey". Sure, maybe a person will work at many companies over their life. On the other hand, people work to make a living, sometimes for an entire family, and suddenly not having work can affect someone's livelihood very negatively for obvious reasons. Don't get me wrong, I understand that sometimes as a boss/manager you have to make difficult decisions for the sake of the company. But, you're just lying to yourself if you think it's not a big deal to fire someone.

psykotic 11y ago
I'd agree if we weren't talking about a company renowned for having among the highest base salaries in the business. Engineers who go to Netflix have a lot of other options and should know what culture they're joining.
- timr 11y ago
  I knew that Netflix paid well, but I didn't know that they operated like this. After hearing the story about laying off the tech team to move to AWS...well, let's just say that the salaries I've heard wouldn't be enough. They recruit engineers like crazy, but they still couldn't find a use for their existing, high-performing team? That seems insane. The whole time I was listening to this, I was thinking: if a company is going to treat me like a de facto contractor, shouldn't I just ask for the (much higher) hourly risk-adjusted rate I'd demand as a contractor? Why bother with the charade of full-time employment at all?
  - lmm 11y ago
    Absolutely, ask for the rate you'd demand as a contractor. Netflix might actually be willing to pay it.
- codeonfire 11y ago
  They might pay a lot but the apartments next to their HQ cost $3300 for a 1 bedroom apartment. That only works if they don't have a family. Housing near Netflix is going to be $5k per month. Employees also have to factor in the cost of unemployment and job search, self paid insurance and medical when between jobs, self paid retirement, relocation to and away from Netflix, etc. I would put the total extra cost for the opportunity of a 12 month stint at Netflix at $50k. Maybe they pay $200-220, but they don't give stock, don't give bonuses, and you won't be taking any vacation during those 12 months.

codeonfire 11y ago

One thing where the Netflix system breaks down is for some reason managers are never found to be useless or relevant. It becomes a small number of individual contributors trying to support a larger and larger management base. The real reason is political. The people at the top fear people rising through the ranks so they execute people like a dictatorship. At my previous job everyone with more than 15 years of experience was pushed out and people with no experience at all were brought in. Now, no one can make the case that people with no experience were not useless. They had no skills. If it were a pro sports team, it would be like bringing in little league players. The idea is the little league-ers are so excited about being in the big leagues they don't complain about the inept coaches. It makes perfect political sense to have high turnover. What managers will typically do is turn over the workforce, but also scale down the thing they are trying to accomplish to meet the capabilities of their little league-ers. All they want is to be able to claim a 'success' so they can get promoted. They cut the workforce down, cut the work down, but when they build the n-millionth + 1 music service or chat app they claim it is a revolution. Executive management says, "wow you created a music service, here have $500k" and the process starts again. No one has the cojones to point out that the company has inadvertently started to play little league because the executives are trying to ride successes as well.

enraged_camel 11y ago
>>The real reason is political. The people at the top fear people rising through the ranks so they execute people like a dictatorship. At my previous job everyone with more than 15 years of experience was pushed out and people with no experience at all were brought in. Actually, the real reason is usually financial. People with 15 years of experience tend to cost a lot more than new hires fresh out of college.
- 6d0debc071 11y ago
  Assuming that both groups are competent for their level of experience: If you can't make more profit out of someone with 15 years experience than you can out of someone who is fresh out of college, then I really question how good you are at running a team. Sure, they're more expensive, but they can get a lot more done a lot faster.

brianmcconnell 11y ago

Oooh, how I love it when out of shape tech industry people use professional sports metaphors without understanding the difference between 1) a professional sports tournament system and 2) employment in a growing industry. In 1) there is an artificially limited number of slots (and money) in the "big leagues" that little leaguers are clamoring for. In 2) there is generally a shortage of people relative to the available jobs. Applying the professional sports metaphor to category 2 merely demonstrates that as a manager you are a f---t--d, which is probably why they have ridiculously bad turnover (a HQ location that might as well be in Siberia being another).

sremani 11y ago

This is difficult to listen to, but that is how it is. We can see this as a meat-grinder or you can see as living organism shunning its weak-cells either way, this is how world works and there are people who went bankrupt because they have run companies like their families, and their workers could not help them to survive beyond a point. Netflix adds value, to its customers but for what ever weird reason or hypocrisy of me, I have cancelled my Netflix subscription. Well, I used their rule of thumb, Is Netflix really critical for my well being? No. Sayonara Netflix. I have moved one.