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> When I met a Haskeller at the pub after a mini-conference and I mentioned that I didn't like Haskell he began frothing at the mouth and punching the table. Wh

> When I met a Haskeller at the pub after a mini-conference and I mentioned that I didn't like Haskell he began frothing at the mouth and punching the table. When we got up to leave he refused to shake my hand. This is just gold! All the Haskellers I have met seem to be quite normal, helpful. Maybe this guy rubs them up the wrong way.

lispm 11y ago
Search for 'Jon Harrop' and you will begin to understand why...
- conistonwater 11y ago
  Isn't that the user that left the comment, jdh30?
  - radmuzom 11y ago
    Jon Harrop often comes across as too negative and is described as "well known internet troll". However, his thoughts are usually quite valuable and often better than what he is credited for. His contributions to the F# community are well known.
    - lispm 11y ago
      The Lisp community remembers when he trolled them. Basically he wanted to create clicks for his commercial offerings, unrelated to Lisp. Some kind of anti-marketing strategy, which fired back. Since then his business failed and he trolls the Haskell community as a hobby, from time to time. Really 'valuable' thoughts from him are rare. 'Valuable' more for him. ;-)
- alricb 11y ago
  Some context from back in the day... http://harrop-highly.blogspot.ca/ http://harrop-highly.blogspot.ca/
Chlorus 11y ago
Why do I have the sensation that critiquing programming language communities in general is going to end in, shall we say, less than constructive conversations?
yokohummer7 11y ago
That's not my experience. Most Haskellers are indeed good people, but quite a few "vocal" ones are extremely arrogant and intellectually dishonest. Let me give some examples that I've met recently: - A Haskeller once said Haskell is just as easy as Go to learn. I mean, yeah, many moderately complex languages might be as complex as Haskell, but seriously, Go? It is designed to be as simple as possible. Hell, it even doesn't have generics, which is considered pretty essential in nowadays' statically typed languages. And this claim isn't an outcome of ignorance. He is the author of a very popular Haskell learning material. - Another said: "Steep learning curve is an interesting expression, because what it actually means is that one is learning quickly." Ok, that's not my interpretation of "steep learning curve" of Haskell. - "The average Java programmers are worse than the average Haskell programmers" thing. This sentiment even existed in one of the "how to spread Haskell to the industry" presentation. I'm pretty sure if Haskell does be accepted by the industry, it will have the exactly same dumb programmers using it. So, what's the point? You must be lucky if you haven't met any of them in the Haskell community. Actually, their reputation outside of the community is quite terrible. This must be resolved if Haskell wants to succeed. (And yeah, please stop saying "avoid success at all cost". I know it can be interpreted as "avoid $ success at all cost", just stop it.)
- Tomte 11y ago
  "Steep learning curve is an interesting expression, because what it actually means is that one is learning quickly." That is technically correct in the original meaning of "learning curve". Many technically inclined people totally disregard changes of language and cling to their perceived "pure" meaning.
  - Zarathustra30 11y ago
    Just plot "Effort Needed" by "Skill Wanted". You get a nice, steep curve.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
fp-incompleted 11y ago
"All the Haskellers I have met seem to be quite normal, helpful" This is the same kind of weak response you see from Rubyists whenever someone points out their community's well-documented asshole problem (eg: Steve Klabnik bringing a woman to tears by publicly ridiculing her project and offering only an insincere non-apology when called on it, any blog post ever by DHH or ZS, Felipe Contreras' tantrums on public mailing lists): "Well, in my experience, everyone in my community is super nice and helpful, so you must be wrong." Off the top of my head, I can easily recall several Haskellers on HN who've come across to me in the past as pricks, and on multiple occasion at that: dons, loup-vaillant, and coolsunglasses. The Haskell community, like that of Ruby, is quickly getting the reputation it deserves.
- fp-incompleted 11y ago
  Some concrete examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9036331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9036331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8646242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8646242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9973567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9973567
  - spatulon 11y ago
    OK, those are pretty bad.
- boothead 11y ago
  The thing is that it's not a "weak response", it really is people's opinion. I've experienced some cases where I've been spoken to a bit sharply, and some where people have come across a bit impatient when I haven't "got" something they understand. The thing is that I don't process it as people coming across as a dick, so my subjective experience is that the community is helpful. As to the three examples [1] you picked out of Haskellers coming across as pricks, I honestly, truely, completely don't see anything in any of these comments beyond forthright assertions of opinion. Would you be able to maybe break down what you find objectionable? [1] As disclosure: I currently work with dons, and I also know willtim.
lispm 11y ago
> This is just gold! This thread reminds me of Tortuous Convolvulus.

lispm 11y ago

Search for 'Jon Harrop' and you will begin to understand why...

conistonwater 11y ago
Isn't that the user that left the comment, jdh30?
- radmuzom 11y ago
  Jon Harrop often comes across as too negative and is described as "well known internet troll". However, his thoughts are usually quite valuable and often better than what he is credited for. His contributions to the F# community are well known.
  - lispm 11y ago
    The Lisp community remembers when he trolled them. Basically he wanted to create clicks for his commercial offerings, unrelated to Lisp. Some kind of anti-marketing strategy, which fired back. Since then his business failed and he trolls the Haskell community as a hobby, from time to time. Really 'valuable' thoughts from him are rare. 'Valuable' more for him. ;-)
alricb 11y ago
Some context from back in the day... http://harrop-highly.blogspot.ca/ http://harrop-highly.blogspot.ca/

Chlorus 11y ago

Why do I have the sensation that critiquing programming language communities in general is going to end in, shall we say, less than constructive conversations?

yokohummer7 11y ago

That's not my experience. Most Haskellers are indeed good people, but quite a few "vocal" ones are extremely arrogant and intellectually dishonest. Let me give some examples that I've met recently: - A Haskeller once said Haskell is just as easy as Go to learn. I mean, yeah, many moderately complex languages might be as complex as Haskell, but seriously, Go? It is designed to be as simple as possible. Hell, it even doesn't have generics, which is considered pretty essential in nowadays' statically typed languages. And this claim isn't an outcome of ignorance. He is the author of a very popular Haskell learning material. - Another said: "Steep learning curve is an interesting expression, because what it actually means is that one is learning quickly." Ok, that's not my interpretation of "steep learning curve" of Haskell. - "The average Java programmers are worse than the average Haskell programmers" thing. This sentiment even existed in one of the "how to spread Haskell to the industry" presentation. I'm pretty sure if Haskell does be accepted by the industry, it will have the exactly same dumb programmers using it. So, what's the point? You must be lucky if you haven't met any of them in the Haskell community. Actually, their reputation outside of the community is quite terrible. This must be resolved if Haskell wants to succeed. (And yeah, please stop saying "avoid success at all cost". I know it can be interpreted as "avoid $ success at all cost", just stop it.)

Tomte 11y ago
"Steep learning curve is an interesting expression, because what it actually means is that one is learning quickly." That is technically correct in the original meaning of "learning curve". Many technically inclined people totally disregard changes of language and cling to their perceived "pure" meaning.
- Zarathustra30 11y ago
  Just plot "Effort Needed" by "Skill Wanted". You get a nice, steep curve.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
seanmcdirmid 11y ago

fp-incompleted 11y ago

"All the Haskellers I have met seem to be quite normal, helpful" This is the same kind of weak response you see from Rubyists whenever someone points out their community's well-documented asshole problem (eg: Steve Klabnik bringing a woman to tears by publicly ridiculing her project and offering only an insincere non-apology when called on it, any blog post ever by DHH or ZS, Felipe Contreras' tantrums on public mailing lists): "Well, in my experience, everyone in my community is super nice and helpful, so you must be wrong." Off the top of my head, I can easily recall several Haskellers on HN who've come across to me in the past as pricks, and on multiple occasion at that: dons, loup-vaillant, and coolsunglasses. The Haskell community, like that of Ruby, is quickly getting the reputation it deserves.

fp-incompleted 11y ago
Some concrete examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9036331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9036331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8646242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8646242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9973567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9973567
- spatulon 11y ago
  OK, those are pretty bad.
boothead 11y ago
The thing is that it's not a "weak response", it really is people's opinion. I've experienced some cases where I've been spoken to a bit sharply, and some where people have come across a bit impatient when I haven't "got" something they understand. The thing is that I don't process it as people coming across as a dick, so my subjective experience is that the community is helpful. As to the three examples [1] you picked out of Haskellers coming across as pricks, I honestly, truely, completely don't see anything in any of these comments beyond forthright assertions of opinion. Would you be able to maybe break down what you find objectionable? [1] As disclosure: I currently work with dons, and I also know willtim.

lispm 11y ago

> This is just gold! This thread reminds me of Tortuous Convolvulus.