6 ms·

Call this a recession? It isn’t the Dark Ages

63 points by icey 17y ago

petewarden 17y ago
The archaeological picture is actually a lot more complex than this article suggests, with strong evidence of large 'factories' around Europe, even in Britain, feeding extensive trading networks. No coins for 300 years? Sutton Hoo (early 7th century) contained coins from 37 different Frankish mints! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Hoo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Hoo I recommend Barbarians to Angels for a good archaeology-based look at the Dark Ages, even if it does strain a little too far to paint a sunny picture: http://www.powells.com/biblio/2-9780393060751-2 http://www.powells.com/biblio/2-9780393060751-2
- billswift 17y ago
  It's rather dated, but Asimov's book, "The Dark Ages" is fairly readable, and gives a decent overview.
arethuza 17y ago
It's not like the Romans were exactly welcomed in all parts of Britain: "We, the last men on earth, the last of the free, have been shielded till today by the very remoteness and the seclusion for which we are famed. We have enjoyed the impressiveness of the unknown. But today the boundary of Britain is exposed; beyond us lies no nation, nothing but waves and rocks and the Romans, more deadly still than they, for you find in them an arrogance which no reasonable submission can elude. Brigands of the world, they have exhausted the land by their indiscriminate plunder and now they ransack the sea. The wealth of an enemy excites their cupidity, his poverty their lust of power. East and West have failed to glut their maw. They are unique in being as violently tempted to attack the poor as the wealthy. Robbery, butchery, rapine, with false names they call Empire; and they make a wilderness and call it peace." Part of what Calgacus is supposed to have said before the battle of Mons Graupius in North East Scotland.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- DrJokepu 17y ago
  I can't help but think about the "What did the Romans ever do for us?" scene from Life of Brian when reading this.
  - arethuza 17y ago
    Well, they certainly provided a much needed stimulus to the local wall building industry.
    - Quarrelsome 17y ago
      Methinks the walls were built by teh foreign armies of Rome.
augustus 17y ago
It may not be the dark ages but people losing their homes and having to deal with a bad credit rating for seven years is pretty bad. Maybe in the dark ages, a second chance was a lot easier. Today all our mistakes (finances, internet posts,errors of youth) will plague us for the rest of our lives (seems like).
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  There are really not very many people losing their homes. However, many people are choosing not to exercise out-of-the-money home purchase options. But this is more a problem for banks than for people, since the banks expected most of those options to be exercised. The language "people losing their homes" is simply a propaganda term designed to encourage politicians to take money from renters and owners and give it to option (aka mortgage) holders.
  - trevelyan 17y ago
    Banks aren't foreclosing because then they need to write-off the losses. I know a guy who's been living in a house he stopped making payments on for 1.5 years. No sign they're going to kick him out anytime soon.
  - tmorton 17y ago
    In pure financial terms, you're right. However, "people losing their homes" is perfectly accurate for some people. A home isn't just a house or an "out-of-the-money home purchase option", it's where you've put down roots and built up memories. Some people made bad gambles, and are losing their "options." Others made bad decisions or were unlucky, and are losing their homes. Even if they're partially to blame, it's still a terrible situation.
  - nostrademons 17y ago
    "It's a recession when someone you know loses their job. It's a depression when you lose yours." I know people, personally, that are losing their homes. I'm kinda wondering how large your social circles are if you don't know anyone in that situation. Now, the people I know in foreclosure probably should be in foreclosure - they got that way through bad financial decisions in 2006 and 2007, and they were certainly warned at the time. House prices can't stay overvalued forever, and maybe this'll give those of us who were more prudent with our money an actual chance to own a home. But "propaganda term"? Really? These are real people with real homes. And they're not as uncommon as you'd think.
jderick 17y ago
So it's no longer "not as bad as the great depression?" Now we are going back to the dark ages?
- codexon 17y ago
  It is quite annoying to have people come up with excuses to feel good about the situation. You can always make up an excuse which begins a race to the bottom: Hungry? At least you aren't in Africa! Poor? Well you probably aren't living like a caveman. Lost an arm? Well you aren't a quadrapelegic! These types of articles and arguments are quite counterproductive.
pg 17y ago
I read (most of) his book on the fall of Rome. It has a lot of hard data about what happened. But the most noticeable thing about the book is how partisan it seems. He writes as if he were writing about a present day political controversy. You don't usually see that in books on ancient history. What he's a partisan of is the idea that the western empire really fell hard. There is a continuum of opinion on that. From what I know so far I tend to be on his side, but he's so heavy handed about it that I find it makes me skeptical about everything he says.
akkartik 17y ago
It's science fiction, but (the better) half of Stephen Baxter's Coalescent (http://www.amazon.com/Coalescent-Stephen-Baxter/dp/0345457854 http://www.amazon.com/Coalescent-Stephen-Baxter/dp/034545785...) is set in 4th c. Britain. Nothing else has given me that sense of being there when the wavefront of the empire receded.
joe_the_user 17y ago
Usually I hate meta-commenting but I'm sick of items behind paywalls being posted here. Please stop.
- icey 17y ago
  Weird - I didn't see any registration required. Also, doesn't paywall infer payment required? (I'm not questioning that it asked you for a login, it's just odd that it's requiring it for some people and not others.)
- hga 17y ago
  The last time I checked the Financial Times (from memory) lets you read 3 articles a month without registration, 17 articles if you register, and you have to pay if you want to read more for any one month period. Quite reasonable, especially given the quality of a lot of their copy; the only problem I had was once hitting the 17 article limit ... and now I only follow a link to them if I really want to read the item.

63 points by icey 17y ago

The archaeological picture is actually a lot more complex than this article suggests, with strong evidence of large 'factories' around Europe, even in Britain, feeding extensive trading networks. No coins for 300 years? Sutton Hoo (early 7th century) contained coins from 37 different Frankish mints! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Hoo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Hoo I recommend Barbarians to Angels for a good archaeology-based look at the Dark Ages, even if it does strain a little too far to paint a sunny picture: http://www.powells.com/biblio/2-9780393060751-2 http://www.powells.com/biblio/2-9780393060751-2

billswift 17y ago
It's rather dated, but Asimov's book, "The Dark Ages" is fairly readable, and gives a decent overview.

arethuza 17y ago

It's not like the Romans were exactly welcomed in all parts of Britain: "We, the last men on earth, the last of the free, have been shielded till today by the very remoteness and the seclusion for which we are famed. We have enjoyed the impressiveness of the unknown. But today the boundary of Britain is exposed; beyond us lies no nation, nothing but waves and rocks and the Romans, more deadly still than they, for you find in them an arrogance which no reasonable submission can elude. Brigands of the world, they have exhausted the land by their indiscriminate plunder and now they ransack the sea. The wealth of an enemy excites their cupidity, his poverty their lust of power. East and West have failed to glut their maw. They are unique in being as violently tempted to attack the poor as the wealthy. Robbery, butchery, rapine, with false names they call Empire; and they make a wilderness and call it peace." Part of what Calgacus is supposed to have said before the battle of Mons Graupius in North East Scotland.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
DrJokepu 17y ago
I can't help but think about the "What did the Romans ever do for us?" scene from Life of Brian when reading this.
- arethuza 17y ago
  Well, they certainly provided a much needed stimulus to the local wall building industry.
  - Quarrelsome 17y ago
    Methinks the walls were built by teh foreign armies of Rome.

augustus 17y ago

It may not be the dark ages but people losing their homes and having to deal with a bad credit rating for seven years is pretty bad. Maybe in the dark ages, a second chance was a lot easier. Today all our mistakes (finances, internet posts,errors of youth) will plague us for the rest of our lives (seems like).

yummyfajitas 17y ago
There are really not very many people losing their homes. However, many people are choosing not to exercise out-of-the-money home purchase options. But this is more a problem for banks than for people, since the banks expected most of those options to be exercised. The language "people losing their homes" is simply a propaganda term designed to encourage politicians to take money from renters and owners and give it to option (aka mortgage) holders.
- trevelyan 17y ago
  Banks aren't foreclosing because then they need to write-off the losses. I know a guy who's been living in a house he stopped making payments on for 1.5 years. No sign they're going to kick him out anytime soon.
- tmorton 17y ago
  In pure financial terms, you're right. However, "people losing their homes" is perfectly accurate for some people. A home isn't just a house or an "out-of-the-money home purchase option", it's where you've put down roots and built up memories. Some people made bad gambles, and are losing their "options." Others made bad decisions or were unlucky, and are losing their homes. Even if they're partially to blame, it's still a terrible situation.
- nostrademons 17y ago
  "It's a recession when someone you know loses their job. It's a depression when you lose yours." I know people, personally, that are losing their homes. I'm kinda wondering how large your social circles are if you don't know anyone in that situation. Now, the people I know in foreclosure probably should be in foreclosure - they got that way through bad financial decisions in 2006 and 2007, and they were certainly warned at the time. House prices can't stay overvalued forever, and maybe this'll give those of us who were more prudent with our money an actual chance to own a home. But "propaganda term"? Really? These are real people with real homes. And they're not as uncommon as you'd think.

jderick 17y ago

So it's no longer "not as bad as the great depression?" Now we are going back to the dark ages?

codexon 17y ago
It is quite annoying to have people come up with excuses to feel good about the situation. You can always make up an excuse which begins a race to the bottom: Hungry? At least you aren't in Africa! Poor? Well you probably aren't living like a caveman. Lost an arm? Well you aren't a quadrapelegic! These types of articles and arguments are quite counterproductive.

pg 17y ago

I read (most of) his book on the fall of Rome. It has a lot of hard data about what happened. But the most noticeable thing about the book is how partisan it seems. He writes as if he were writing about a present day political controversy. You don't usually see that in books on ancient history. What he's a partisan of is the idea that the western empire really fell hard. There is a continuum of opinion on that. From what I know so far I tend to be on his side, but he's so heavy handed about it that I find it makes me skeptical about everything he says.

akkartik 17y ago

It's science fiction, but (the better) half of Stephen Baxter's Coalescent (http://www.amazon.com/Coalescent-Stephen-Baxter/dp/0345457854 http://www.amazon.com/Coalescent-Stephen-Baxter/dp/034545785...) is set in 4th c. Britain. Nothing else has given me that sense of being there when the wavefront of the empire receded.

joe_the_user 17y ago

Usually I hate meta-commenting but I'm sick of items behind paywalls being posted here. Please stop.

icey 17y ago
Weird - I didn't see any registration required. Also, doesn't paywall infer payment required? (I'm not questioning that it asked you for a login, it's just odd that it's requiring it for some people and not others.)
hga 17y ago
The last time I checked the Financial Times (from memory) lets you read 3 articles a month without registration, 17 articles if you register, and you have to pay if you want to read more for any one month period. Quite reasonable, especially given the quality of a lot of their copy; the only problem I had was once hitting the 17 article limit ... and now I only follow a link to them if I really want to read the item.