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Documents confirm Apple is building self-driving car
- mdaniel 11y agoThe cited engineer's LinkedIn page[0] says that he worked for Lit Motors[1] through Jan 2015, then nothing - which seems to square with my mental model of Apple. The Lit Motors part piqued my interest since I'm a pre-orderer for their awesome looking self-balancing enclosed motorcycle/vehicle. He even went to the same university as I did, although for very different degrees. 0 = https://www.linkedin.com/pub/frank-fearon/16/687/3a0 https://www.linkedin.com/pub/frank-fearon/16/687/3a0 1 = http://litmotors.com http://litmotors.com
- anotherangrydev 11y agoWow, the C1 looks awesome but I would be really hesitant to put my life into one of those things. Thing is, if the car you're on loses power you are pretty much safe all of the time, if your bike loses power you may have some trouble but you would basically be able to stop and get off without dying. If the C1 loses power, goodbye gyro and that's the end for you. :( If they made the same vehicle with some kind of device that solves the stability issue in a passive way I'd be totally in.
- jsprogrammer 11y agoAs long as the wheels are rolling, you should be ok: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics#/media/File:Bike_weaving.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamic...
- anotherangrydev 11y agoNot at all. When you ride a (motor?)bike you still do a lot of work by yourself to keep it balanced, thing is, you become so accustomed to those things that its easy to think that they happen "by themselves" but nope. Try turning at a relatively high speed without leaning correctly and we'll see if that wikipedia article saves you from the road rash. In these proposed vehicles you are giving control of that to some hardware that "supposedly works" and software that "supposedly works". To each his own I guess, I wouldn't ride one of those, let alone everyday, let alone on a highway.
- function_seven 11y agoI think you may have some misconceptions regarding the physics of motorcycles. You do not have to lean at all to turn, if you don't want to. Obviously the combination of you and your bike must lean, but you yourself can maintain a perfect upright posture if you'd like (and let the bike "do all the leaning"). You won't be able to turn as sharply, of course, but it's NOT the rider leaning their body that causes the bike/rider system to lean, it's purely a reaction to the countersteer you apply to the bars. My favorite link to paste on the subject: http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
- anotherangrydev 11y agoYou do not have to lean at all to turn, if you don't want to [... but ...] you won't be able to turn as sharply. You basically proved my point.
- function_seven 11y agoWhen I say "you do not have to lean at all to turn", I was not clear. What I mean is that you can look like the left photo, rather than the right photo: http://i.imgur.com/K4vTdDm.gif http://i.imgur.com/K4vTdDm.gif I read your comment to imply that the rider's body lean is what initiates a turn, rather than their handlebar input. Or that the rider must actively lean (their body), rather than allowing the bike to lean them over. Your other reply to jsprogrammer says that "it's pretty obvious that the passenger needs to be shifting its weight to achieve that." But that's precisely what I'm saying is wrong. No weight shift is required at all to do any street-riding turns. When the handlebars are steered, the bike will force you over. When a seated driver of the C1 turns the bars, the seat will move their body over, they don't have to do any work. If you're on a racetrack, then yeah, shift your weight and eek out sharper turns, but you'll look silly shifting your weight around when riding on public streets or a highway. Cheesy video that shows it better than I can explain. Skip to 2:25. https://youtu.be/8_5Z3jyO2pA https://youtu.be/8_5Z3jyO2pA
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
- mahyarm 11y agoThe C1 has to stand when your not moving, so slow down to a stop and put out struts?
- jsprogrammer 11y agoStruts could work. It looks like the body is wide enough that the vehicle would still be mostly upright if it fell over. I only contest that losing power would be the end of you (it very well might, but there are many plausible survival scenarios).
- freehunter 11y agoMy bike stays up while moving forward even if I'm not pedaling. Forward momentum works wonders. Once it's slow enough to fall over, it's too slow to kill or even really injure you. I know you're arguing against the "losing power would kill you", but I would go farther and say that "it very well might" is only really applicable if you stall in the middle of a highway and get hit by another car, in which case even a Volvo would struggle to keep you safe.
- jsprogrammer 11y agoWell, my main doubt is in your ability to effectively control the vehicle unpowered. This could be dangerous in many instances: on bridges/overpasses, steep roads, roads with steep drop-offs near the shoulder, etc. Stalling at highway speeds with other vehicles would not be good, but you may be able to manage it.
- tmuir 11y agoHow would you handle potholes and other abnormal road conditions?
- kumarm 11y agoWow Talk about secrecy, Linkedin Profile is already deleted.
- ChuckMcM 11y agoActually just an inaccurate cut & paste of the url (https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=55419240 https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=55419240) is still there, and you can see more of it if you log into LinkedIn
- ris 11y agoAnd if you thought Toyota lacked transparency when problems were found in their systems, boy, you're in for a shock...
- timcederman 11y agoReally? You feel that Apple hasn't been forthright with disclosing security issues or other problems/shortcomings with their products, and then fixing them in a timely manner? I am always surprised when I see Apple being discussed on Hacker News. I own both Android and Apple devices, and my Apple devices are all much more up-to-date, have better privacy, and better security.
- kw71 11y agoI personally trust General Motors (car shuts off), Ford (car erupts in flames) and Toyota (car won't stop) more than I trust Apple. I will never buy another Toyota product but I still operate one. Apple is even lower than that for me, I'm not even using the devices I have. And some of them have flaws that have not been addressed at all (ooh this item is unsupported now.) I also think it's ironic that you put privacy in the context of smartphones (Android implies this) when many people believe that smartphones are spying devices.
- timcederman 11y agoApple continues to push the industry forward in terms of what privacy and security options they offer their consumers. Their implementation of TouchID, disk encryption, and application security is better than anything else out there. The CIA and FBI have gone on record as saying as how frustrated they are with Apple's security. Do you really think iPhones can be used as spying devices?
- ris 11y ago"TouchID" Largely meaningless from a security standpoint (easily bypassable), and it enables someone to build a large database of fingerprint hashes. (Don't give me any of that "it doesn't upload the actual fingerprints" - uploading hashes is just as useful to security services) "disk encryption" You trust Apple way, way too much. "The CIA and FBI have gone on record as saying as how frustrated they are with Apple's security." Which is exactly what they would say, wouldn't they? "Do you really think iPhones can be used as spying devices?" Yes. In fact I have little doubt.
- oroup 11y agoThe Concord Naval Weapons Station where they plan to test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord_Naval_Weapons_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord_Naval_Weapons_Station On Google Maps: https://goo.gl/maps/uOCwX https://goo.gl/maps/uOCwX
- Zhenya 11y agoOn a lighter note: Looks like a great place for the Top Gear guys to build a new track if they were to do it in the US.
- fernly 11y agoAt least one Mythbusters episode has been filmed there. This one[1] for sure, I think a few other driving-oriented ones. (However it is not the same as the Alameda Naval Air station, a big open runway where they have done a number of episodes including the recent "driving in reverse" episode.) [1] http://wikimapia.org/14471022/Mythbusters-Dirty-vs-Clean-Car-Education-Episode http://wikimapia.org/14471022/Mythbusters-Dirty-vs-Clean-Car...
- callmeed 11y agoThere are houses right by there. How will they prevent someone from renting a house nearby and spying on them with a drone?
- msoad 11y agoProject Titan employees have a cover on their badges and pretty much nobody have access to their buildings. I know two new employees who went to Project Titan team that are heavily focused on computer vision.
- untog 11y agoI spoke to someone who worked at Apple in the pre-iPhone era, he said similar things about what ended up being the iPhone team. It honestly just seems like a waste of time to me. That and the fact that I never see Apple employees at conferences etc. - it makes me not want to work there.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- ttthrowaway 11y agoI really think that the purpose is of the secrecy is more a technique to keep focus among engineers than anything else. Knowing more than one needs to know leads to internal politics and discord. In a weird way Apple can really boast of having "startup-like" teams inside it, because everyone knows exactly what they need to do their job (engineers atleast).
- untog 11y agoKnowing more than one needs to know leads to internal politics and discord. That seems optimistic at best. As the OP demonstrates, the secrecy leads to gossip and rumours.
- coldtea 11y agoGossip and rumours don't matter. Internal politics can be about concrete things, trying to influence this or that decision etc. If you cannot even SEE or talk about their project with the members of the other teams, that stops right there. Sure, you can rumour in the cafeteria about it.
- superuser2 11y agoThe self-driving car will be transformative, and it's important that no one company be the only game in town. If this seems like me-too-ism then it probably is, but that's a good thing for the world.
- modeless 11y agoA self driving car seems untypical for Apple. The obvious model for self driving cars is basically Uber without drivers; a service rather than a device which you buy and own yourself. That seems more like a Google thing than an Apple thing to me.
- agumonkey 11y agoRecently a lot of articles popped about how Apple designed all kinds of devices, including phone, and proto-smartphones back in the 80s/90s. But yeah so far a car seems like a first. They have money, maybe that's the only requirement... assemble a team of talent and let them create freely.
- arihant 11y agoApple's three big successes - personal computer, music, and phone. All seemed very atypical of them too. In fact, self-driving cars is very similar to where a PC was with the homebrew club.
- mikeash 11y agoI get music and phone. But how was a PC atypical of Apple? It's what they were founded for. It was their first product.
- shawndumas 11y agoYou are correct of course; Apple's first was a PC. But apropos of nothing, Steve & Steve's first 'product' was blue boxes [1]. ----- [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_box https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_box
- frabcus 11y agoCamper van! I think an important use of self driving cars will be to travel longish distances over night. This may even happen frequently - several times a week. People will want their own bedding, clothes, wash things and so on if doing that. Logically then, at the high end at least, people will own the vehicle. Of course, other services will be pod cars in cities, and more hotel-like overnight rentals. But I see no reason Apple couldn't sell a large number of permanently owned driverless campervans.
- mtgx 11y ago> GoMentum Station’s empty roads feature everything from highway overpasses and railway crossings to tunnels and cattle grids. These would enable Apple to test vehicles in a variety of realistic everyday situations but without exposing it to scrutiny. Has Apple ever heard of drones? They won't be able to hide this much longer if they are testing it in the open.
- arihant 11y agoIt doesn't work that way. Vehicle companies test their secret products in open all the time. The prototypes don't look much different from a standard market product and are typically in coveralls. Even if you spot them on road they would look like any other car company testing their car. Just live near a car company and you'd see cars wrapped in black driving around.
- joezydeco 11y agoIf Apple is testing their own drivetrain and (rumored) driverless system outdoors they don't need to do it with Jony Ive sheet metal on it. It'll be buried inside some generic minivan or sedan. You might be able to spy on the testing but it will look like a Honda dealer training session.
- CardenB 11y agohttps://www.google.com/search?q=apple+mapping+car&client=safari&hl=en&prmd=iv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMImpr6y_-txwIVwpoeCh1ibANt&biw=375&bih=559 https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+mapping+car&client=saf... I feel as though not all these cars are just for mapping. LIDAR + cameras + inconspicuous makes me think it could also be self driving
- Gys 11y agoIt probably requires an Apple Watch to open the doors, using your required iPhone. The radio can only play Apple Music (subscription required). And do not forget to register with iCloud, otherwise the car will deny your ownership. Not sure if am that much of an Apple fan to ever wanting to buy such car. Probably would feel like literally giving up all freedom of choice.
- veidr 11y agoI hate Apple and their shameless hypocritical promotion of corporate hegemony over the individual human as much as the next guy, but come on. There is no chance -- at all, whatsoever -- that Apple would release a car that does any of the things you suggest. Sure, the Apple watch would open the doors, and the entertainment system would integrate with Apple Music, and iCloud would probably get a new feature called Find My Car. But none of those things would be required in any way.
- arihant 11y agoMaybe not the other stuff, but I would probably not be surprised if Apple's car required an iPhone or Apple Watch to start. Now that they have NFC it probably isn't a battery issue as well. I'd actually be surprised if it is the other way around. The only way to kill keys is to render them non-compliant.
- 2muchcoffeeman 11y agoWhy would they possibly want to limit their customers to a subset of their Apple Watch or iPhone customers? How is that advantageous for them. If anything, they would build a car that is accessible to everyone, and have better iDevice integration to push iDevice sales. Makes no sense to do it the other way around.
- litmus 11y agoAt first I thought it would be silly too, but think about it: these guys are buying a car, why not give the iwatch and iphone free with the car, its only about a grand. If it all goes according to plan, the number of people who insist on using another device when the iDevices are sitting right there is going to dwindle.
- na85 11y agoProbably the last company I would trust with my safety on the road.
- freshyill 11y agoOk, why?
- Xorlev 11y agoIf it's anything like Apple maps, we'll have death tolls in the thousands.
- trhway 11y agoMy thinking is if Apple just did an electric iCar, they would already made a killing, and they can do it tomorrow morning. All you need is design and good supply logistics. No regulatory hassles to speak about, etc.. Self-driving car is great, yet not tomorrow. Technologically iPhone wasn't like self-driving car as there were phones+computer gadgets on the market before the iPhone, and in that regard iPhone was just like a better electric car would be today. Main innovation of iPhone was breaking back of cell provider - AT&T. Of course if Apple can break the back of DMV and put the self-driving car through regulatory hoops ... I will be so sorry to not have their stock :)
- Erdos6 11y agoFor large tech companies trying to justify huge valuations to their investors and large cash reserves to their shareholders there isn't much a choice about entering a large market that is obviously on the verge of being majorly disrupted. The only question is one of timing.
- draugadrotten 11y agoIt would be interesting how Apple would handle liability. Considering how their legalese is written for other products, they would probably not take any responsibility AT ALL for anything their cars did. This is in very stark contrast to VOLVO that says the VOLVO company will assume full liability for accidents caused by their cars! "But, if the car is in autonomous mode and causes a crash, Eugensson [Volvo Cars' director of government affairs] said Volvo will take responsibility. "It will be difficult to sell if the driver is still liable. It gives a false promise." http://www.cnet.com/news/a-ride-in-volvos-autonomous-car-how-the-next-step-in-driver-safety-requires-replacing-the-driver/ http://www.cnet.com/news/a-ride-in-volvos-autonomous-car-how... Perhaps we will buy self-driving cars from how their contracts look and not from their tech specs.
- Gys 11y agoIf Volvo would have to rely on Apple Maps I guess they would not take any responsibility either ;-)
- czottmann 11y agoI doubt they work on a _self-driving_ car. Electric: yes. But self-driving? I am not sure how the Guardian came to that conclusion, other than looking at the military facility that in the past was used to test self-driving vehicles — _among other things_.
- FaultierWheel 11y agoLowly Worm had a self-driving Apple car ages ago (it must have been self-driving... how else would a worm steer). REF http://bfy.tw/1Jdz http://bfy.tw/1Jdz And the ubiquity of that design as a child's pedal toy is precisely what should have some folks concerned. Apple seems to have a long history of vendor lock on hardware components that go in to their systems. I expect they view self-driving cars as a similar opportunity -- for regulatory reasons they could push heavily for use of only vendor-supplied parts, resulting in a tightly closed system. I would also expect a limited number of models to enter the market each year -- just as we see for Apple computer products. Contrast that with vehicles like the Honda Civic and Ford F150, where there is comparatively a large product range, and an even more enormous range of after-market parts for repair and customization. I suspect self-driving cars will reach a point of market saturation when they become cheaper than human-driven cars, aided by vendors touting the extremely high safety ratings and environmental protection value. And when self-driving cars are here in force, I expect we'll actually see the loss of ability to work on your own car that is decried today by folks who advocate classic car technology over cars with computer systems. Within our community the real question around self-driving cars should be the ability to create an open platform, and whether this is a space that hobbyists should be permitted to operate. Without this, we'll all be driving Lowly's Apple car in a few years.
- maggiechang5307 11y agoHere's what most people don't get about self-driving cars: It's not the technology, it's the liability issues that have to be resolved before self-driving vehicles really become feasible. Can you imagine the corporate finger pointing and circle jerking that's going to happen the first time somebody gets killed in an accident cause by a self-driven vehicle? And somebody is bound to get killed because there is no way possible to code all of the possible scenarios that can happen on a road or guarantee 100% that the hardware will function properly. I have yet to hear an insurance company step up and state how they are going to handle these issues. It seems like a mess. I have a good driving record and enjoy pretty cheap insurance rates ($25/month from Insurance Panda). I also enjoy taking my car out for a spin and enjoying the ‘freedom’ of being able to drive anywhere. Will the driverless car allow all this? If not, I’ll have to pass. I've also haven't heard an insurance company step up and say they will insure a self driving car. Until this happens all this talk about self driving cars is really a non-starter.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- coldtea 11y ago>I have yet to hear an insurance company step up and state how they are going to handle these issues. Well, if a company puts out a decent self-driving car will great commercial opportunities, any smart insurance company will want to get a hand at that pie (insuring its drivers). From then, it's up to how good the car company can convince the insurance company that their car will have an equal or less accident rate than a regular car. If the car company can show them that it has an equal accident rate, an insurance company would be stupid not to insure it. And doubly stupid if the car company could show the cars having a smaller accident rate. So shouldn't be that difficult -- and far easier than also having to convince the buying public.
- whoiskevin 11y agoWhy should I pay to insure a self driving car? I'm not driving it so maybe I want personal protection but seriously the insurance changes entirely. If a self driving car has to be insured by me then I want to control it not just assume it works and I'll pay the insurance when it doesn't.
- coldtea 11y agoCue some Google executive: “We’ve learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent self-driving car,” he said. “Apple guys are not going to just figure this out. They’re not going to just walk in.” (referencing Palm CEO's Ed Colligan’s remarks before the iPhone introduction).