6 ms·

First of all, the reason why they differentiate product and general search is, because Google injects a carousel at the top of the page, regardless of its relev

First of all, the reason why they differentiate product and general search is, because Google injects a carousel at the top of the page, regardless of its relevancy. Thus, the differentiation. Secondly, the big discussion of abusing its market dominance was ultimately triggered by Yelp and other vertical search engines. Google first ripped of Yelp by scraping their content and then added it to their own Google Places search. After that, they decided to give their own service more relevancy. This would not be a problem, IF they were competition in the European market, but Google has an average market share of 90 percent in Europe (note, that it has up to 99 percent in other markets like Germany) and thus Yelp is super dependent on Google. Overall, this is NOT a fair market and Google has such a dominance in that market that new players are not likely (or ever) to appear. A 99 percent market share is a monopoly, there are not many non-government markets that experience such a malfunction.

adventured 11y ago
There was an easy solution for Yelp: opt out of Google search results. What Yelp wants, is to have their cake and eat it too. They want to benefit from what Google offers, and they want Google to behave exactly as they would prefer, assuming control over Google's product through government power. Classic competitor hypocrisy, the same behavior displayed 15 years ago by Microsoft's extremely envious competition. They didn't want to beat Microsoft in consumer operating systems, they wanted to chain and control Microsoft's operating system to their benefit.
- simonh 11y ago
  If search results that hit Yelp data linked to Yelp there'd be no problem. However if it links to Google Places because Google scraped the Yelp data and loaded it into the Places database - that's a problem. Suppose someone launched an 'Encyclopedia Search' service that searched Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Britanica, etc and linked to their sites. The the service then started loading the Wikipedia and Britanica content into it's own respository and linked searches to that. It's still searching the same data, and taking you to the same articles, it's just that now you're not going to Wikipedia or Britanica anymore. Would that be ok? If not, what's the difference?
  - saalweachter 11y ago
    I thought Wikipedia's license specifically allowed that (presumably Britannica's does not)?
  - 9872 11y ago
    Poor analogy. Yelp contains facts and user reviews. Encyclopedias contain facts conveyed through written articles. The writing and reviews may be copyright protected. Facts are not.
    - simonh 11y ago
      Curated collections of facts are absolutely protected by copyright, provided they meet certain criteria. For example you can use that data to create a new curated data set for a different purpose, but you can't just copy all the data and use it in the way it was orriginaly compiled for because that's copying the curation. I can't say authoritatively if Yelp's data is likely to meet these criteria, but we're not talking about copyright violation anyway, we're talking about anti-competitive practices. Using a dominance in search to scrape data from competitors for use in other services and then link to them from search in preference over the data's source may well be anti-competitive, even if the scraping itself isn't illegal.
- eevilspock 11y ago
  > What Yelp wants, is to have their cake and eat it too. That would be true if Google didn't have an effective monopoly in search. Because it is an effective monopoly, saying that about Yelp is like saying a citizen that is against any form of socialism but cashes social security checks wants to have his cake and eat too. False. That citizen would prefer that social security doesn't exist, but given that it does, and given that he is forced to pay the costs, isn't going to be stupid and refuse the checks. And I say that as a free-market socialist. There are two ways to deal with a monopoly: - break it up - allow it to continue, but force it to provide equal access, at non-monopolistic rates and terms
klipt 11y ago
I've traveled in countries where I fired up the Yelp app, and it had no results anywhere in the country. But Google maps brought up restaurants etc just fine. So I'm pretty sure Google has data sources other than Yelp. Remember they also acquired Zagat a while back.
- paganel 11y ago
  I've worked for a Yelp-lookalike website in an Eastern European country, sometime in 2010. The whole thing cost my employer a lot of money to get started, think programmers' and sales people's salaries, to say nothing of the people that we had actually outside the office, walking the streets of our ten-or-so biggest cities and trying to document each and every local business. And then, towards the end of 2010-early 2011, Google decided to enter the game with its Google Places. They had no people on the ground to collect businesses' addresses and make sure that the advertised phone numbers were actually correct. But, surprise, surprise, in a matter of less than 6 months all of this data was on Google Places. At the time I was actually telling my boss: "hey! at some point the EU is bound to do something! They cannot just rip people off like this". It "only" took the EU ~6years.
  - eru 11y ago
    Sorry, I don't follow. How did Google rip anyone off here?
    - confluence 11y ago
      Scrapped the data most likely
      - Dylan16807 11y ago
        Well, countries have generally decided you can't copyright factual information, and they did that for a reason.
        confluence 11y ago

adventured 11y ago

There was an easy solution for Yelp: opt out of Google search results. What Yelp wants, is to have their cake and eat it too. They want to benefit from what Google offers, and they want Google to behave exactly as they would prefer, assuming control over Google's product through government power. Classic competitor hypocrisy, the same behavior displayed 15 years ago by Microsoft's extremely envious competition. They didn't want to beat Microsoft in consumer operating systems, they wanted to chain and control Microsoft's operating system to their benefit.

simonh 11y ago
If search results that hit Yelp data linked to Yelp there'd be no problem. However if it links to Google Places because Google scraped the Yelp data and loaded it into the Places database - that's a problem. Suppose someone launched an 'Encyclopedia Search' service that searched Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Britanica, etc and linked to their sites. The the service then started loading the Wikipedia and Britanica content into it's own respository and linked searches to that. It's still searching the same data, and taking you to the same articles, it's just that now you're not going to Wikipedia or Britanica anymore. Would that be ok? If not, what's the difference?
- saalweachter 11y ago
  I thought Wikipedia's license specifically allowed that (presumably Britannica's does not)?
- 9872 11y ago
  Poor analogy. Yelp contains facts and user reviews. Encyclopedias contain facts conveyed through written articles. The writing and reviews may be copyright protected. Facts are not.
  - simonh 11y ago
    Curated collections of facts are absolutely protected by copyright, provided they meet certain criteria. For example you can use that data to create a new curated data set for a different purpose, but you can't just copy all the data and use it in the way it was orriginaly compiled for because that's copying the curation. I can't say authoritatively if Yelp's data is likely to meet these criteria, but we're not talking about copyright violation anyway, we're talking about anti-competitive practices. Using a dominance in search to scrape data from competitors for use in other services and then link to them from search in preference over the data's source may well be anti-competitive, even if the scraping itself isn't illegal.
eevilspock 11y ago
> What Yelp wants, is to have their cake and eat it too. That would be true if Google didn't have an effective monopoly in search. Because it is an effective monopoly, saying that about Yelp is like saying a citizen that is against any form of socialism but cashes social security checks wants to have his cake and eat too. False. That citizen would prefer that social security doesn't exist, but given that it does, and given that he is forced to pay the costs, isn't going to be stupid and refuse the checks. And I say that as a free-market socialist. There are two ways to deal with a monopoly: - break it up - allow it to continue, but force it to provide equal access, at non-monopolistic rates and terms

klipt 11y ago

I've traveled in countries where I fired up the Yelp app, and it had no results anywhere in the country. But Google maps brought up restaurants etc just fine. So I'm pretty sure Google has data sources other than Yelp. Remember they also acquired Zagat a while back.

paganel 11y ago
I've worked for a Yelp-lookalike website in an Eastern European country, sometime in 2010. The whole thing cost my employer a lot of money to get started, think programmers' and sales people's salaries, to say nothing of the people that we had actually outside the office, walking the streets of our ten-or-so biggest cities and trying to document each and every local business. And then, towards the end of 2010-early 2011, Google decided to enter the game with its Google Places. They had no people on the ground to collect businesses' addresses and make sure that the advertised phone numbers were actually correct. But, surprise, surprise, in a matter of less than 6 months all of this data was on Google Places. At the time I was actually telling my boss: "hey! at some point the EU is bound to do something! They cannot just rip people off like this". It "only" took the EU ~6years.
- eru 11y ago
  Sorry, I don't follow. How did Google rip anyone off here?
  - confluence 11y ago
    Scrapped the data most likely
    - Dylan16807 11y ago
      Well, countries have generally decided you can't copyright factual information, and they did that for a reason.
      - confluence 11y ago