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This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for sa

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing move... unless you turn it into one, by letting your skills stagnate and wither, which is on you. (Or maybe that wasn't a development job for those ten years? The article is vague. If, for some reason, the poster was out of the dev world for a decade then yeah, it's going to be harder to get back in without a lot of aggressive self-retraining. But even then, if you actually can program, it should be very do-able.)

strathmeyer 11y ago
What's baffling is people in denial blaming the victims. We admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. We weren't fooled, we were just dumb. But we still want to survive, that doesn't make us bad people just because we enjoy programming.
- cgearhart 11y ago
 >...admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. CS degrees do have value. But their value is not constant, and depends heavily on the domain and requirements for a particular job. The real confusion is thinking that a CS degree is supposed to merely provide job skills training. While you get some of that as part of the deal, that's not actually the purpose of a degree -- and it never was. In that light, it really shouldn't be surprising that a degree isn't always required to be successful.
 - tracker1 11y ago
 Because most line of business applications are crafted, run on insanely fast hardware and don't need pure CS/Math skills to create. Some jobs need CS/EE/Math degree knowledge to do well. Software is written by a wide variety of skill and knowledge levels to varying degrees of effectiveness... in the end all anyone cares about is does it work/look reasonably well.
- Merovius 11y ago
 What I don't understand is, why aren't you getting a degree? If you acknowledge a degree is important to get hired, why not just get one? At least here in germany it takes you three years to get a degree -- if you can actually code I would claim you even have more than enough time to work on the side to finance it. Given that you'll probably get a good job with six figures right of the bat if you are even borderline competent, that sounds like a better investment of time to me, than trying to do crappy freelance work on the side. Even if we assume that a degree is just a piece of paper that doesn't mean anytheng except getting your foot into the door and even if we add horrendous US enrollment fees (which, btw, the USA should finally do something about) it would still be a very good investment that pays for itself after a couple of years at the most. I just don't get, why it seems so much easier, to fight the system without a degree, than just giving up the fight and get one?
 - Futurebot 11y ago
 Not everyone can. Here in the US, doing so without family support / fallback if you fail out makes it extremely risky. If you're supporting yourself completely, having to work gets in the way of going to school (immersion while working full-time, especially at workplaces that demand all your time is basically impossible.) Others succeed in a work setting, but struggle in school. Still others don't want to deal with mounds of debt, and have no college fund/trust fund/aren't good enough to get scholarships. There are lots of reasons. https://medium.com/@opirmusic/why-software-developers-should-still-choose-to-go-to-university-if-someone-else-is-paying-45091d22acc1 https://medium.com/@opirmusic/why-software-developers-should...
 - Merovius 11y ago
 The more I learn about the US educational system, the more I consider it sucking majorly. I don't know how you can put up with that stuff. I already consider it a source of major social injustice, that here in GER you will only receive state-help for the first 5 years of your studies. But it's at least still possible for everyone who wants to get a degree, if they are willing to exit with something like 10K€ of interest-free debt, payable over 8 years (and have something like a 10h/week job on the side, which is incredibly easy to get as a CS-major). I guess I'm just overly priviledged by the german educational system… :-/
- michaelcampbell 11y ago
 > thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. Interesting. I thought that in 1984, and I've been right ever since then. As have most of the classmates I have kept up with (perhaps a self-selection bias there, granted). Maybe it was the time or I've been very lucky. <shrug>
 - strathmeyer 11y ago
 Maybe it's the sort of field where the successful people like to shit on those trying to survive.
vonmoltke 11y ago
> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. What is baffling is this Valley-centric, web and mobile development-centric line being repeated constantly in this thread. Most of the world is a different story. Outside the Valley and a couple other metros, and outside the web and mobile fields in general: 1) degrees are usually required; 2) employers are much pickier.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  Agreed, sometimes people aren't aware that HN is its own little echo chamber. I was talking to a recruiter recently for a managerial job and somehow got onto the topic of hiring. I asked him what's the hardest jobs for him to fill right now. He told me he's dying for entry level .NET/ASP and Java developers. Corporations have built their castles on these technologies, not FOSS/Mobile and need staff. Degrees were an issue but he said he could place people with two year degrees. We talked about pay, and it wasn't terrible impressive, but for someone straight out of community college it sounded pretty good to me and he also revealed that if the person wasn't a complete nightmare socially, he could expect to be promoted quick.
  - mkozlows 11y ago
    HN may be an echo chamber, but look what you're saying: Employers are desperate for developers, including entry level ones, mostly using older tech stacks, and they'll pay solid money for them. It doesn't sound like you're describing a world in which someone with 10+ years of solid experience with techs is going to be struggling to find a job, right?
    - doktrin 11y ago
      > It doesn't sound like you're describing a world in which someone with 10+ years of solid experience with techs is going to be struggling to find a job, right? Overqualification (or the perception thereof) happens. The development world, like most others, is a bit of a pyramid. More experience doesn't necessarily translate to more positions being available. Some (many, even) are specifically targeted at young, entry level devs.
branchless 11y ago
Developers should realise that when you come to an interview the interviewer isn't looking to dismiss you because you can't recite Knuth. For the vast majority of jobs they are desperate for you to be competent having just interviewed 5 incompetent people. I've worked as a programmer for 3 very good paying companies over 15 years and none of them could get enough good developers.
- potatolicious 11y ago
  Welllllll... Yes and no. Yes, companies are generally desperate for programmers right now, and companies definitely want you to succeed in your interviews. Interviewers on the other hand can be a fickle bunch. I have met many (in fact, maybe even most) who seem to treat it as some kind of hazing or initiation and act as if the candidate is an opponent to be outsmarted. It doesn't help that in literally none of the companies I've ever worked for do programmers receive any training on interviewing, so this kind of behavior goes uncorrected. The company definitely wants you to succeed and get hired, but there's still a pretty profound disconnect between the company's priorities and what happens in the room between candidate and interviewer.
  - branchless 11y ago
    It's an interesting distinction and yes I have sympathy with it. However in general the "pissing contest" devs are a minority and in particular for the more senior/experienced devs it's most often the case that they want you to be good and will give you the chance to be good.
  - mkozlows 11y ago
    Most hiring managers are hiring people because they have a definite need for a developer. Every day that they don't find one, they have work that's going undone, projects that are proceeding too slowly, bugs going unfixed. And if they're not finding people, after a while their directors start to question whether they're doing their job properly. There is nothing a hiring manager loves more than finding a hire-able candidate. That doesn't mean that the interview is going to be a cakewalk, though. The hiring manager wants someone who's going to be a success in the job, and they're going to try to filter for that. The only thing worse than not hiring a good developer is hiring a bad one, and the process is trying to stop that latter from happening, too.
fweespeech 11y ago
> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. I've had about 40-50% of places reject me due to a lack of degree. A couple even sent me hopeful follow up emails hoping I simply left it off my resume (I'm guessing they don't believe I could do what I've got on my resume without a degree I guess?). This includes small startups from YC back when I was curious. So please, no one, take his "no one cares" seriously. About half of companies do care about the degree.
- stephengillie 11y ago
  How do you know that 40-50% of places are rejecting you because of your lack of degree? Do they say this outright in their rejection emails? What's your overall rejection rate? I don't even get a timely response (within a month of application) to 50% of the positions I apply for. That's why it's absolutely essential to be able to apply to places in bulk - have a cover letter and resume that are just generic enough to use for any job you would want. I fully expect to have to apply to 100 places in order to have 3 solid interviews. And I expect that number to grow.
  - doktrin 11y ago
    > How do you know that 40-50% of places are rejecting you because of your lack of degree? Do they say this outright in their rejection emails? How many positions have you applied for that itemized the reasons for rejection? I've had that happen maybe once, and it was for a role at a startup. Anyhow, often times the degree is a hard requirement. Mine is in Philosophy, and for a long time I left it off my CV because I didn't perceive it as being relevant. When I applied for a position with a research lab, the [engineering] team politely responded asking if I had any academic credentials whatsoever. They wanted to move me along the interview process, but the lack of a degree would have kiboshed the whole thing.
  - fweespeech 11y ago
    > How do you know that 40-50% of places are rejecting you because of your lack of degree? Do they say this outright in their rejection emails? What's your overall rejection rate? 1) I received several requests for an updated resume with a degree. 2) I was pulled aside in one interview and told I couldn't get what I was asking without a degree. So, out of the people that I got a rejection reason for, basically. Last Job Search: 61 applications -> 14 phone interviews -> 5 in person interviews Before phone interviews: 2 requests from [one of the big 5] to interview that were unsolicited from their recruiters that I refused outright. I received 9 emails related to the degree. 3 asked why I wasted their time without a degree. 4 asked for updated resumes with a degree. 2 stated their rejection was due to a lack of degree. Additionally, the "failures" to reach the phone interview were heavily weighted towards places that mentioned a degree in their job ad. [e.g. I saw 150% of the failure rate for job ads with the degree than for job ads that just listed experience requirements ] After interviews: 6 were too much money [ I was literally pulled aside at the in-office bar, told by the hiring manager that if I asked for $10k less he would give me the job ] 3 were due to other reasons that I didn't think were noteworthy. I rejected 4 places on the basis of my interactions with them.
MagicWishMonkey 11y ago
Agreed. Sounds like there's something else at play with this guys inability to find work. Maybe he doesn't interview very well?
- Mikushi 11y ago
  He's old (early 40'). Taboo subject in the sector.
  - doktrin 11y ago
    This is something being glossed over by most of the responses. Age discrimination (or rather, age preconception, if that's a less loaded term) is frighteningly real.
    - chii 11y ago
      i would expect that an older person with more battle tested experience ought to fair better tbh, so i don't get it with the agism. Unless the position is meant for a high strung startup where you're expected to basically live there, with no dependents to look after etc.
      - doktrin 11y ago
        There are several reasons younger developers are sometimes valued over older candidates. Work life balance is part of it, but there are other factors at play. This is a pretty well trodden topic, and you can find a lot of the typical discussion points by Googling. A common explanation, for instance, is that experience in tech doesn't accrue a ton of value due to tech obsolescence - 20 Cobol experience doesn't really translate to much of anything these days. However, rather than re-hash all that, it's worth taking a look at the numbers - numbers that absolutely indicate a younger skewing workforce. For instance, the average age at Facebook is 26, and 31 at Google. Tech as a whole leans young, with the "oldest" tech company workforce (HP) still younger than the national median [1] Now, whether simply having a younger workforce points towards actual age discrimination is a matter of fair debate. A perfectly reasonable explanation might be that tech is a young field, hence a young workforce. However, there are enough confounding factors (limitations of experience, work/life balance in dev roles, etc.) that certainly make for rational arguments in favor of age being more of burden than boon. Then, of course, you have stuff like this : > "Young people are just smarter. Why are most chess masters under 30? I don't know. Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family. Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what's important." -- Zuckerberg True or not, it would be weird to argue that his opinion is somehow a rare isolated outlier. It speaks to a common conception - both in the valley and in tech - that this is a business for the young. [1] http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/technology-workers-are-young-really-young http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/technology-workers-...
smtddr 11y ago
>>And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing move... unless you turn it into one, by letting your skills stagnate and wither, which is on you. HN is going to hate me for saying this, but there's another problem besides your actual skillset. At least in the start-up bay area scene, working 10 years at a big company[1] absolute is a negative to a bunch of people because they __assume__ you won't be a good culture fit. _____ 1. Not talking about the Facebook/Apple/Google trendy companies. I'm talking of Wells Fargo, JCPenny's and at&t.
- sjcrank 11y ago
  Agreed. In fact, the description of the big company environment "barely any work to be done, it mostly involved sitting at a desk and writing some emails all day" is a stereotype often applied to the day to day life of boring large-company developers. In cases where this is true, a developer who has spent the past 10 years primarily writing emails and doing minimal coding is unlikely to be a strong developer candidate - the blade is dull from lack of use. My recommendation to OP is to find ways to demonstrate your motivation and skills in order to counteract the stereotype, perhaps through open source contributions.
  - tracker1 11y ago
    LOL, I once spent my first 3 weeks at a job sitting at a desk with no computer yet... started bringing in my personal laptop tethered to my phone (killed my data use after windows update right after the new billing cycle, that was a painful month). I was spending about 20 hours a week in planning meetings though... once I had a computer assigned, I was still blocked by others' tasks another 14-15 hours a week... so all told, I actually got about 4-6 hours of actual productive coding done on a typical week... I jumped at the first job that even looked interesting to me... I couldn't handle that much mundane.
omouse 11y ago
>And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing move... unless you turn it into one, by letting your skills stagnate and wither, which is on you. Working 40 hrs without training or proper mentoring leads to skill stagnation. A $500 training budget will get you nowhere and you'll find yourself using long weekends (like I'm doing right now) learning new skills. Maybe that's expected in the industry and I've made my peace with it but in other industries you get sent to training courses even if they take away few days or even weeks of "productive" time.
- meddlepal 11y ago
  Can anyone please tell me what developers use training budgets for? I feel like most things I have learned are from free resources such as blogs and StackOverflow. What do people spend money on? Books I suppose are the most likely candidate, but those can definitely be bought with $500... Do people actually get value out of conferences? Those always seem more like cash grabs and marketing events than actual training value-adds.
  - knodi123 11y ago
    > Do people actually get value out of conferences? In terms of skill development? Yes, although it's value you could get for free if you read the right blogs, keep involved in the community, and are a self-motivated person. In terms of networking? Yes, although perhaps you could get that for free too, if you go to enough hackerspaces and meetups etc. Ironically, a lot of the people I meet at conferences are the kind of driven, motivated, outgoing people who are well suited to getting those benefits for free. But not all of them! I certainly derive value from going to conferences.
  - djKianoosh 11y ago
    I think you'll get more value from local Meetups and the very few non-marketing conferences out there. If it's a tech company putting on a conference, expect a lot of marketing. Conferences like Strangeloop and the no-fluff ones are usually better. Other than that, books and screencasts seem to be a good way to spend that training budget as well. But there's a ton of videos online available for free too. Of course, they all require time. Which is money. :)
stephengillie 11y ago
This story sounds like the person started as a programmer, started a small company, and then did more Business Development and running the company than programming. He mentioned having to fire people, so I wonder how many people he employed. So it sounds like he already made a career change (from software development to business executive) and is now trying to change back to software developer, after a decade out. Most of the stuff that was common back then is "considered harmful" now, ranging from GOTO statements to tags. And also this sounds like my poor mother, who labored as a secretary and transcriptionist, left the labor force to rear children, then lamented that her skills had become useless because computers had come along and taught everyone to type. It's each person's responsibility to make sure they're still useful to everyone else in society. And so the author's other options might be continuing on as an executive at another software company - but that almost always comes from the human network that is developed by going out and meeting people at various events. Which it sounds like the author did not do either. I guess the moral of the story is that the author got spoiled during the Dotcom boom or shortly thereafter, got to continue living life in super-easy mode, and is having a rough awakening to the way life is for everyone else.
- tracker1 11y ago
 I kind of miss simple ... tags... I accept that is now typically used for icons... but is ... really better? I was once a really big proponent of semantic markup, and avoiding tables for non-table data... but I don't know that flexgrid that much better, more flexible, but not really much better.
ryandrake 11y ago
If there is really an under-supply of (or over-demand for) developers, why aren't developer salaries skyrocketing? Something doesn't add up.
- nordic_nomad 11y ago
  Some really are. I know several who I wouldn't classify as all that skilled, but they hit the right check boxes, and they're making $160k-$350k a year a year or two out of college or even high school. The way this works is that each check box you can hit, no matter how arbitrarily increases your market value x amount. - Have a UX portfolio? $40k - Is it good and you know javascript? +$20k - Have a couple of javascript frameworks under your belt? +$50k - Show that you're language agnostic on the backend? +20k - Have you made any videogames? +$30k - Did a machine learning project once and know how to talk about the subject intelligently? +$50k. etc. The thing is that not every job will pay for every checkbox, but if you find one that does you maximize your value. It's one of those matrix things.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  Companies are cheap, and lots of hiring managers believe they can get lucky and find that one guy that is a rockstar programmer but doesn't know it, and thus can be had for cheap.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Tyguy7 11y ago
I completely agree. I am self taught, started learning code about 6 years ago, and I get recruiters contacting me and job offers constantly. It's gets annoying actually. A guy without a degree getting calls about 6 figure jobs on a regular basis sure sounds like he'd be in a different industry than the guy who wrote this article. When I hear developers with degrees complaining about how hard it is to find work these days I'm completely baffled. Software engineering is one of the best fields to be in today with an overabundance of jobs available. I start to wonder about developers who say they can't find work. What's really going on?
- derptron 11y ago
  Job markets for developers vary widely across the world?
mcv 11y ago
I've got a friend who was out of the dev world for 7 years, I think. He was originally working on his PhD when he got RSI and couldn't touch a computer anymore. He became a store security guard. Not much of a career, but he met lots of people every day (he's remarkably gregarious for a programmer). Eventually, though, he wanted to get back into software. First tried his own company for a year, which failed, but did get him some experience with javascript. Then he got a job as ruby/javascript developer. I assume he started at the bottom, since he didn't have any real dev experience yet, but he had no problem finding that job, and he's doing quite well there. My impression is that it's really not hard to get into software. You do have to be realistic, though; maybe you don't come across as quite as senior as you imagine yourself to be. Admittedly, this was in Netherland, not the US. The situation might be different in the US.
Bartweiss 11y ago
I think this overlooks the difference between qualified and credentialed. In the valley, there are plenty of experienced and uncredentialed people working great jobs. There are relatively few unqualified people doing the same, except when hiring squeezes exceedingly tight. Outside the valley, defending the decision to hire someone without credentials is virtually impossible. There may be plenty of interest, but someone along the way will chicken out rather than risk the backlash if someone without a degree turns out to be incompetent. The fact that 'marginally-qualified' people get hired is orthogonal (or maybe even antithetical) to whether 'marginally-credentialed' people do. If a company can't judge competence, they just look for degrees and get shitty employees. That's what's happening outside the valley, and it hurts companies and skilled, degree-less employees alike.
- Tyguy7 11y ago
  I'm not sure if I could agree with the "Outside the valley" comment. I live nowhere near the Valley, and myself and plenty of my co-workers are not credentialed. As a matter of fact, my current workplace is pretty much in a rural area. My last 3 jobs have had a pretty equal number of credentialed and uncredentialed employees. These companies all pay very well, and are well-known.
- logicfiction 11y ago
  The generalization between valley vs. not valley here seems a bit too strict. I'm in the Boston community and there is not an irrational focus on credentials here. My good friend just completed a code bootcamp and got hired in Chicago. I think at least any sizable tech city will behave like this in the present climate.
ericson578 11y ago
I thought the same thing, but my guess is the author is from Europe. Maybe it's completely different there?
lsc 11y ago
no... this happens. I've got a buddy who is trying to find a job right now. My phone is ringing off the hook even after I've removed my number from the job boards, 'cause I have a pretty cushy gig right now, while he gets almost nothing. He's one of the smartest guys I know, and he's not crazy, no record or nothing, he's just kinda shy and comes off as... well, people tend to think he's shorter than he is. Which is fuckin' weird, 'cause who cares, right? this isn't sales. the man can program. Now, he does have a handful of real problems. First, he takes interviews seriously; like he stops looking for work when he gets a serious one. He doesn't look for work while he's working. And he wants a job where he has experience with the languages and frameworks, rather than practicing his "I've got hands, I'm sure I can figure it out" that the rest of us do. To be clear, he's worked with me before, and I have seen him pick up new stuff. He's a smart guy and picks up new stuff faster than most, he just doesn't want to be deceptive. (If anyone is looking for a smart C++ dude, preferably someone using QT, lemme know, I'll hook you up.) The funny thing is that I just got off of working for my own company for a long time (not ten years... about half that) and yeah, it's harder to get back in the game working for other people; I'm making less than several of my ex-employees, and I had to do way more interviews than I usually do (though, as I said in another post, that might be because I was confused about what 'devops' meant, in a job description) So... working for yourself at a company that wasn't venture backed is a disadvantage, but not one that can't be overcome. Lacking that "bro attitude" - that confidence - that willingness to push and shove and to say what is expected? that's a disadvantage... well, that's a disadvantage that it's really hard to overcome.
- milspec 11y ago
  * (If anyone is looking for a smart C++ dude, preferably someone using QT, lemme know, I'll hook you up.) * Uh, maybe. Is he OK with low-level stuff too? We do use Qt, but we might ask him to write a disassembler or a kernel driver.
  - lsc 11y ago
    I think so. He would be super excited to work on the dissassembler. He doesn't have linux kernel experience, but he's on the list of people I'd hire to do a kernel driver, if I needed such a thing. (Really, he's only on the top of that list because everyone else I know who is proven in that field is fully employed and super expensive. But this guy is definitely smart enough to handle it.) he was the original author of a serial class for qt[1]... of course, I know that is not anything like a device driver, but it's something. I also body-shopped and sysadmined for him on a project that involved reverse-engineering a windows program. but... you'd have to make it clear that you are okay that he doesn't have linux kernel experience, so long as he's willing to try it. I think he'd also be cool with contract work, if you want to try him out. my email is lsc@prgmr.com- I don't really feel like it would be cool to post his email on the open internet but I can forward something. [1]qextserialport, which I am given to understand isn't the standard.
devcis 11y ago
The problem is getting access to this hidden job market. Where are the companies that hire these barely qualified developers because that is the best they can do? It must be a myth since why is there such an oversupply of developers vs companies on sites like elance.90 % of the developers of sites like these have never been awarded one job even.

strathmeyer 11y ago

What's baffling is people in denial blaming the victims. We admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. We weren't fooled, we were just dumb. But we still want to survive, that doesn't make us bad people just because we enjoy programming.

cgearhart 11y ago
>...admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. CS degrees do have value. But their value is not constant, and depends heavily on the domain and requirements for a particular job. The real confusion is thinking that a CS degree is supposed to merely provide job skills training. While you get some of that as part of the deal, that's not actually the purpose of a degree -- and it never was. In that light, it really shouldn't be surprising that a degree isn't always required to be successful.
- tracker1 11y ago
  Because most line of business applications are crafted, run on insanely fast hardware and don't need pure CS/Math skills to create. Some jobs need CS/EE/Math degree knowledge to do well. Software is written by a wide variety of skill and knowledge levels to varying degrees of effectiveness... in the end all anyone cares about is does it work/look reasonably well.
Merovius 11y ago
What I don't understand is, why aren't you getting a degree? If you acknowledge a degree is important to get hired, why not just get one? At least here in germany it takes you three years to get a degree -- if you can actually code I would claim you even have more than enough time to work on the side to finance it. Given that you'll probably get a good job with six figures right of the bat if you are even borderline competent, that sounds like a better investment of time to me, than trying to do crappy freelance work on the side. Even if we assume that a degree is just a piece of paper that doesn't mean anytheng except getting your foot into the door and even if we add horrendous US enrollment fees (which, btw, the USA should finally do something about) it would still be a very good investment that pays for itself after a couple of years at the most. I just don't get, why it seems so much easier, to fight the system without a degree, than just giving up the fight and get one?
- Futurebot 11y ago
  Not everyone can. Here in the US, doing so without family support / fallback if you fail out makes it extremely risky. If you're supporting yourself completely, having to work gets in the way of going to school (immersion while working full-time, especially at workplaces that demand all your time is basically impossible.) Others succeed in a work setting, but struggle in school. Still others don't want to deal with mounds of debt, and have no college fund/trust fund/aren't good enough to get scholarships. There are lots of reasons. https://medium.com/@opirmusic/why-software-developers-should-still-choose-to-go-to-university-if-someone-else-is-paying-45091d22acc1 https://medium.com/@opirmusic/why-software-developers-should...
  - Merovius 11y ago
    The more I learn about the US educational system, the more I consider it sucking majorly. I don't know how you can put up with that stuff. I already consider it a source of major social injustice, that here in GER you will only receive state-help for the first 5 years of your studies. But it's at least still possible for everyone who wants to get a degree, if they are willing to exit with something like 10K€ of interest-free debt, payable over 8 years (and have something like a 10h/week job on the side, which is incredibly easy to get as a CS-major). I guess I'm just overly priviledged by the german educational system… :-/
michaelcampbell 11y ago
> thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. Interesting. I thought that in 1984, and I've been right ever since then. As have most of the classmates I have kept up with (perhaps a self-selection bias there, granted). Maybe it was the time or I've been very lucky. <shrug>
- strathmeyer 11y ago
 Maybe it's the sort of field where the successful people like to shit on those trying to survive.

vonmoltke 11y ago

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. What is baffling is this Valley-centric, web and mobile development-centric line being repeated constantly in this thread. Most of the world is a different story. Outside the Valley and a couple other metros, and outside the web and mobile fields in general: 1) degrees are usually required; 2) employers are much pickier.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
Agreed, sometimes people aren't aware that HN is its own little echo chamber. I was talking to a recruiter recently for a managerial job and somehow got onto the topic of hiring. I asked him what's the hardest jobs for him to fill right now. He told me he's dying for entry level .NET/ASP and Java developers. Corporations have built their castles on these technologies, not FOSS/Mobile and need staff. Degrees were an issue but he said he could place people with two year degrees. We talked about pay, and it wasn't terrible impressive, but for someone straight out of community college it sounded pretty good to me and he also revealed that if the person wasn't a complete nightmare socially, he could expect to be promoted quick.
- mkozlows 11y ago
  HN may be an echo chamber, but look what you're saying: Employers are desperate for developers, including entry level ones, mostly using older tech stacks, and they'll pay solid money for them. It doesn't sound like you're describing a world in which someone with 10+ years of solid experience with techs is going to be struggling to find a job, right?
  - doktrin 11y ago
    > It doesn't sound like you're describing a world in which someone with 10+ years of solid experience with techs is going to be struggling to find a job, right? Overqualification (or the perception thereof) happens. The development world, like most others, is a bit of a pyramid. More experience doesn't necessarily translate to more positions being available. Some (many, even) are specifically targeted at young, entry level devs.

branchless 11y ago

Developers should realise that when you come to an interview the interviewer isn't looking to dismiss you because you can't recite Knuth. For the vast majority of jobs they are desperate for you to be competent having just interviewed 5 incompetent people. I've worked as a programmer for 3 very good paying companies over 15 years and none of them could get enough good developers.

potatolicious 11y ago
Welllllll... Yes and no. Yes, companies are generally desperate for programmers right now, and companies definitely want you to succeed in your interviews. Interviewers on the other hand can be a fickle bunch. I have met many (in fact, maybe even most) who seem to treat it as some kind of hazing or initiation and act as if the candidate is an opponent to be outsmarted. It doesn't help that in literally none of the companies I've ever worked for do programmers receive any training on interviewing, so this kind of behavior goes uncorrected. The company definitely wants you to succeed and get hired, but there's still a pretty profound disconnect between the company's priorities and what happens in the room between candidate and interviewer.
- branchless 11y ago
  It's an interesting distinction and yes I have sympathy with it. However in general the "pissing contest" devs are a minority and in particular for the more senior/experienced devs it's most often the case that they want you to be good and will give you the chance to be good.
- mkozlows 11y ago
  Most hiring managers are hiring people because they have a definite need for a developer. Every day that they don't find one, they have work that's going undone, projects that are proceeding too slowly, bugs going unfixed. And if they're not finding people, after a while their directors start to question whether they're doing their job properly. There is nothing a hiring manager loves more than finding a hire-able candidate. That doesn't mean that the interview is going to be a cakewalk, though. The hiring manager wants someone who's going to be a success in the job, and they're going to try to filter for that. The only thing worse than not hiring a good developer is hiring a bad one, and the process is trying to stop that latter from happening, too.

fweespeech 11y ago

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. I've had about 40-50% of places reject me due to a lack of degree. A couple even sent me hopeful follow up emails hoping I simply left it off my resume (I'm guessing they don't believe I could do what I've got on my resume without a degree I guess?). This includes small startups from YC back when I was curious. So please, no one, take his "no one cares" seriously. About half of companies do care about the degree.

stephengillie 11y ago
How do you know that 40-50% of places are rejecting you because of your lack of degree? Do they say this outright in their rejection emails? What's your overall rejection rate? I don't even get a timely response (within a month of application) to 50% of the positions I apply for. That's why it's absolutely essential to be able to apply to places in bulk - have a cover letter and resume that are just generic enough to use for any job you would want. I fully expect to have to apply to 100 places in order to have 3 solid interviews. And I expect that number to grow.
- doktrin 11y ago
  > How do you know that 40-50% of places are rejecting you because of your lack of degree? Do they say this outright in their rejection emails? How many positions have you applied for that itemized the reasons for rejection? I've had that happen maybe once, and it was for a role at a startup. Anyhow, often times the degree is a hard requirement. Mine is in Philosophy, and for a long time I left it off my CV because I didn't perceive it as being relevant. When I applied for a position with a research lab, the [engineering] team politely responded asking if I had any academic credentials whatsoever. They wanted to move me along the interview process, but the lack of a degree would have kiboshed the whole thing.
- fweespeech 11y ago
  > How do you know that 40-50% of places are rejecting you because of your lack of degree? Do they say this outright in their rejection emails? What's your overall rejection rate? 1) I received several requests for an updated resume with a degree. 2) I was pulled aside in one interview and told I couldn't get what I was asking without a degree. So, out of the people that I got a rejection reason for, basically. Last Job Search: 61 applications -> 14 phone interviews -> 5 in person interviews Before phone interviews: 2 requests from [one of the big 5] to interview that were unsolicited from their recruiters that I refused outright. I received 9 emails related to the degree. 3 asked why I wasted their time without a degree. 4 asked for updated resumes with a degree. 2 stated their rejection was due to a lack of degree. Additionally, the "failures" to reach the phone interview were heavily weighted towards places that mentioned a degree in their job ad. [e.g. I saw 150% of the failure rate for job ads with the degree than for job ads that just listed experience requirements ] After interviews: 6 were too much money [ I was literally pulled aside at the in-office bar, told by the hiring manager that if I asked for $10k less he would give me the job ] 3 were due to other reasons that I didn't think were noteworthy. I rejected 4 places on the basis of my interactions with them.

MagicWishMonkey 11y ago

Agreed. Sounds like there's something else at play with this guys inability to find work. Maybe he doesn't interview very well?

Mikushi 11y ago
He's old (early 40'). Taboo subject in the sector.
- doktrin 11y ago
  This is something being glossed over by most of the responses. Age discrimination (or rather, age preconception, if that's a less loaded term) is frighteningly real.
  - chii 11y ago
    i would expect that an older person with more battle tested experience ought to fair better tbh, so i don't get it with the agism. Unless the position is meant for a high strung startup where you're expected to basically live there, with no dependents to look after etc.
    - doktrin 11y ago
      There are several reasons younger developers are sometimes valued over older candidates. Work life balance is part of it, but there are other factors at play. This is a pretty well trodden topic, and you can find a lot of the typical discussion points by Googling. A common explanation, for instance, is that experience in tech doesn't accrue a ton of value due to tech obsolescence - 20 Cobol experience doesn't really translate to much of anything these days. However, rather than re-hash all that, it's worth taking a look at the numbers - numbers that absolutely indicate a younger skewing workforce. For instance, the average age at Facebook is 26, and 31 at Google. Tech as a whole leans young, with the "oldest" tech company workforce (HP) still younger than the national median [1] Now, whether simply having a younger workforce points towards actual age discrimination is a matter of fair debate. A perfectly reasonable explanation might be that tech is a young field, hence a young workforce. However, there are enough confounding factors (limitations of experience, work/life balance in dev roles, etc.) that certainly make for rational arguments in favor of age being more of burden than boon. Then, of course, you have stuff like this : > "Young people are just smarter. Why are most chess masters under 30? I don't know. Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family. Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what's important." -- Zuckerberg True or not, it would be weird to argue that his opinion is somehow a rare isolated outlier. It speaks to a common conception - both in the valley and in tech - that this is a business for the young. [1] http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/technology-workers-are-young-really-young http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/technology-workers-...

smtddr 11y ago

>>And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing move... unless you turn it into one, by letting your skills stagnate and wither, which is on you. HN is going to hate me for saying this, but there's another problem besides your actual skillset. At least in the start-up bay area scene, working 10 years at a big company[1] absolute is a negative to a bunch of people because they __assume__ you won't be a good culture fit. _____ 1. Not talking about the Facebook/Apple/Google trendy companies. I'm talking of Wells Fargo, JCPenny's and at&t.

sjcrank 11y ago
Agreed. In fact, the description of the big company environment "barely any work to be done, it mostly involved sitting at a desk and writing some emails all day" is a stereotype often applied to the day to day life of boring large-company developers. In cases where this is true, a developer who has spent the past 10 years primarily writing emails and doing minimal coding is unlikely to be a strong developer candidate - the blade is dull from lack of use. My recommendation to OP is to find ways to demonstrate your motivation and skills in order to counteract the stereotype, perhaps through open source contributions.
- tracker1 11y ago
  LOL, I once spent my first 3 weeks at a job sitting at a desk with no computer yet... started bringing in my personal laptop tethered to my phone (killed my data use after windows update right after the new billing cycle, that was a painful month). I was spending about 20 hours a week in planning meetings though... once I had a computer assigned, I was still blocked by others' tasks another 14-15 hours a week... so all told, I actually got about 4-6 hours of actual productive coding done on a typical week... I jumped at the first job that even looked interesting to me... I couldn't handle that much mundane.

omouse 11y ago

>And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing move... unless you turn it into one, by letting your skills stagnate and wither, which is on you. Working 40 hrs without training or proper mentoring leads to skill stagnation. A $500 training budget will get you nowhere and you'll find yourself using long weekends (like I'm doing right now) learning new skills. Maybe that's expected in the industry and I've made my peace with it but in other industries you get sent to training courses even if they take away few days or even weeks of "productive" time.

meddlepal 11y ago
Can anyone please tell me what developers use training budgets for? I feel like most things I have learned are from free resources such as blogs and StackOverflow. What do people spend money on? Books I suppose are the most likely candidate, but those can definitely be bought with $500... Do people actually get value out of conferences? Those always seem more like cash grabs and marketing events than actual training value-adds.
- knodi123 11y ago
  > Do people actually get value out of conferences? In terms of skill development? Yes, although it's value you could get for free if you read the right blogs, keep involved in the community, and are a self-motivated person. In terms of networking? Yes, although perhaps you could get that for free too, if you go to enough hackerspaces and meetups etc. Ironically, a lot of the people I meet at conferences are the kind of driven, motivated, outgoing people who are well suited to getting those benefits for free. But not all of them! I certainly derive value from going to conferences.
- djKianoosh 11y ago
  I think you'll get more value from local Meetups and the very few non-marketing conferences out there. If it's a tech company putting on a conference, expect a lot of marketing. Conferences like Strangeloop and the no-fluff ones are usually better. Other than that, books and screencasts seem to be a good way to spend that training budget as well. But there's a ton of videos online available for free too. Of course, they all require time. Which is money. :)

stephengillie 11y ago

This story sounds like the person started as a programmer, started a small company, and then did more Business Development and running the company than programming. He mentioned having to fire people, so I wonder how many people he employed. So it sounds like he already made a career change (from software development to business executive) and is now trying to change back to software developer, after a decade out. Most of the stuff that was common back then is "considered harmful" now, ranging from GOTO statements to tags. And also this sounds like my poor mother, who labored as a secretary and transcriptionist, left the labor force to rear children, then lamented that her skills had become useless because computers had come along and taught everyone to type. It's each person's responsibility to make sure they're still useful to everyone else in society. And so the author's other options might be continuing on as an executive at another software company - but that almost always comes from the human network that is developed by going out and meeting people at various events. Which it sounds like the author did not do either. I guess the moral of the story is that the author got spoiled during the Dotcom boom or shortly thereafter, got to continue living life in super-easy mode, and is having a rough awakening to the way life is for everyone else.

tracker1 11y ago
I kind of miss simple ... tags... I accept that is now typically used for icons... but is ... really better? I was once a really big proponent of semantic markup, and avoiding tables for non-table data... but I don't know that flexgrid that much better, more flexible, but not really much better.

ryandrake 11y ago

If there is really an under-supply of (or over-demand for) developers, why aren't developer salaries skyrocketing? Something doesn't add up.

nordic_nomad 11y ago
Some really are. I know several who I wouldn't classify as all that skilled, but they hit the right check boxes, and they're making $160k-$350k a year a year or two out of college or even high school. The way this works is that each check box you can hit, no matter how arbitrarily increases your market value x amount. - Have a UX portfolio? $40k - Is it good and you know javascript? +$20k - Have a couple of javascript frameworks under your belt? +$50k - Show that you're language agnostic on the backend? +20k - Have you made any videogames? +$30k - Did a machine learning project once and know how to talk about the subject intelligently? +$50k. etc. The thing is that not every job will pay for every checkbox, but if you find one that does you maximize your value. It's one of those matrix things.
s73v3r 11y ago
Companies are cheap, and lots of hiring managers believe they can get lucky and find that one guy that is a rockstar programmer but doesn't know it, and thus can be had for cheap.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Tyguy7 11y ago

I completely agree. I am self taught, started learning code about 6 years ago, and I get recruiters contacting me and job offers constantly. It's gets annoying actually. A guy without a degree getting calls about 6 figure jobs on a regular basis sure sounds like he'd be in a different industry than the guy who wrote this article. When I hear developers with degrees complaining about how hard it is to find work these days I'm completely baffled. Software engineering is one of the best fields to be in today with an overabundance of jobs available. I start to wonder about developers who say they can't find work. What's really going on?

derptron 11y ago
Job markets for developers vary widely across the world?

mcv 11y ago

I've got a friend who was out of the dev world for 7 years, I think. He was originally working on his PhD when he got RSI and couldn't touch a computer anymore. He became a store security guard. Not much of a career, but he met lots of people every day (he's remarkably gregarious for a programmer). Eventually, though, he wanted to get back into software. First tried his own company for a year, which failed, but did get him some experience with javascript. Then he got a job as ruby/javascript developer. I assume he started at the bottom, since he didn't have any real dev experience yet, but he had no problem finding that job, and he's doing quite well there. My impression is that it's really not hard to get into software. You do have to be realistic, though; maybe you don't come across as quite as senior as you imagine yourself to be. Admittedly, this was in Netherland, not the US. The situation might be different in the US.

Bartweiss 11y ago

I think this overlooks the difference between qualified and credentialed. In the valley, there are plenty of experienced and uncredentialed people working great jobs. There are relatively few unqualified people doing the same, except when hiring squeezes exceedingly tight. Outside the valley, defending the decision to hire someone without credentials is virtually impossible. There may be plenty of interest, but someone along the way will chicken out rather than risk the backlash if someone without a degree turns out to be incompetent. The fact that 'marginally-qualified' people get hired is orthogonal (or maybe even antithetical) to whether 'marginally-credentialed' people do. If a company can't judge competence, they just look for degrees and get shitty employees. That's what's happening outside the valley, and it hurts companies and skilled, degree-less employees alike.

Tyguy7 11y ago
I'm not sure if I could agree with the "Outside the valley" comment. I live nowhere near the Valley, and myself and plenty of my co-workers are not credentialed. As a matter of fact, my current workplace is pretty much in a rural area. My last 3 jobs have had a pretty equal number of credentialed and uncredentialed employees. These companies all pay very well, and are well-known.
logicfiction 11y ago
The generalization between valley vs. not valley here seems a bit too strict. I'm in the Boston community and there is not an irrational focus on credentials here. My good friend just completed a code bootcamp and got hired in Chicago. I think at least any sizable tech city will behave like this in the present climate.

ericson578 11y ago

I thought the same thing, but my guess is the author is from Europe. Maybe it's completely different there?

lsc 11y ago

no... this happens. I've got a buddy who is trying to find a job right now. My phone is ringing off the hook even after I've removed my number from the job boards, 'cause I have a pretty cushy gig right now, while he gets almost nothing. He's one of the smartest guys I know, and he's not crazy, no record or nothing, he's just kinda shy and comes off as... well, people tend to think he's shorter than he is. Which is fuckin' weird, 'cause who cares, right? this isn't sales. the man can program. Now, he does have a handful of real problems. First, he takes interviews seriously; like he stops looking for work when he gets a serious one. He doesn't look for work while he's working. And he wants a job where he has experience with the languages and frameworks, rather than practicing his "I've got hands, I'm sure I can figure it out" that the rest of us do. To be clear, he's worked with me before, and I have seen him pick up new stuff. He's a smart guy and picks up new stuff faster than most, he just doesn't want to be deceptive. (If anyone is looking for a smart C++ dude, preferably someone using QT, lemme know, I'll hook you up.) The funny thing is that I just got off of working for my own company for a long time (not ten years... about half that) and yeah, it's harder to get back in the game working for other people; I'm making less than several of my ex-employees, and I had to do way more interviews than I usually do (though, as I said in another post, that might be because I was confused about what 'devops' meant, in a job description) So... working for yourself at a company that wasn't venture backed is a disadvantage, but not one that can't be overcome. Lacking that "bro attitude" - that confidence - that willingness to push and shove and to say what is expected? that's a disadvantage... well, that's a disadvantage that it's really hard to overcome.

milspec 11y ago
* (If anyone is looking for a smart C++ dude, preferably someone using QT, lemme know, I'll hook you up.) * Uh, maybe. Is he OK with low-level stuff too? We do use Qt, but we might ask him to write a disassembler or a kernel driver.
- lsc 11y ago
  I think so. He would be super excited to work on the dissassembler. He doesn't have linux kernel experience, but he's on the list of people I'd hire to do a kernel driver, if I needed such a thing. (Really, he's only on the top of that list because everyone else I know who is proven in that field is fully employed and super expensive. But this guy is definitely smart enough to handle it.) he was the original author of a serial class for qt[1]... of course, I know that is not anything like a device driver, but it's something. I also body-shopped and sysadmined for him on a project that involved reverse-engineering a windows program. but... you'd have to make it clear that you are okay that he doesn't have linux kernel experience, so long as he's willing to try it. I think he'd also be cool with contract work, if you want to try him out. my email is lsc@prgmr.com- I don't really feel like it would be cool to post his email on the open internet but I can forward something. [1]qextserialport, which I am given to understand isn't the standard.

devcis 11y ago

The problem is getting access to this hidden job market. Where are the companies that hire these barely qualified developers because that is the best they can do? It must be a myth since why is there such an oversupply of developers vs companies on sites like elance.90 % of the developers of sites like these have never been awarded one job even.