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> As someone who has trained in MMA extensively, "the greats" tend to be those who embody this for long whiles in their careers before eventually (and generally

> As someone who has trained in MMA extensively, "the greats" tend to be those who embody this for long whiles in their careers before eventually (and generally, inevitably) regressing to the mean. You can make the case that both age, and the sport evolves around them and they regressed towards the mean. Except for Anderson. I attribute his decline simply to no longer being motivated to train hard. In many of his later fights, he would "play around" and toy with fighters. With Weidman, that cost him a brutal knockout. The psychological damage compounded with his next fight, which was immediate rematch that ended up in brutally shattering his leg. For BJ Penn, there were a lot of questions about his motivations, and by time it seemed like he was properly motivated, the sport had passed him by. Despite all that, he is one of the few fighters that have belts in multiple weight classes, and beat Matt Hughes, and Gomi in their prime (you could argue he beat the piss out of GSP in their first match, despite it being a loss). Full Disclosure: BJ Penn is one of my favorite fighters of all time.

bmelton 11y ago
BJ Penn is easily one of my favorites. I'm actually upset at the fact that seemingly, the more motivation he found, the more likely he was to engage in a stand-up battle, despite his obvious advantages on the ground. Quite possibly there are factors that I'm not privy to (like age inhibiting his flexibility or something), but I've never seen anybody as creative on the ground as he was (though there are some modern fighters that are getting there), and definitely not of his time, but yeah, for a long time, he rode the coattails of his raw talent and didn't train as competitively as many of those who ultimately passed him by. Frank Mir is, in my opinion, his polar opposite (in too many ways to list).
- balls187 11y ago
  I always respected Frank Mir's raw talent--after his devastating motorcycle accident that he was still able to return and claim the heavyweight title. As someone who has admiration for the "veterans" of the octagon, I'm really happy to see the resurgence of Andrei Arlovski.
  - bmelton 11y ago
    Arlovski has been a master of reinventing himself as needed. I haven't seen much of the "old guard" adapt to a sport that evolves as quickly as MMA has as well as he has done so. That said, I would probably put Frank Mir right up there on adaptability, and Mir's last fight against Todd Duffee was simply amazing.
- mistermann 11y ago
  I actually think BJ and Frank are very similar in that their downfall was lack of training. In BJ's case, being generally in poor shape much of the time, but mainly not focusing on his core talents and as you say, getting by on raw natural talent until that was no longer the case. The part that makes me so sad about BJ is, he was a once in a lifetime fighter, but there really aren't that many fights of his that are worth rewatching many times, really wish he would have stayed on top of his game for longer. I feel similarly about Nick Diaz - a good Diaz fight (ie vs: Lawler, Zaromskis, Santos) and a good BJ fight are just wonderful to watch. In Frank's case, he just always gases early, often by the end of the first round. He's very talented but if you can't use that talent for much more than 3 rounds, you can't get too far.
  - bmelton 11y ago
    I don't think Mir has that much ambition at being a 5-round fighter any time soon. Not that he probably couldn't do it if he set his sights on it, but I think he's reached the golden years of his career and knows it. I don't expect a Couture-style championship run, nor do I think he's particularly aiming at one. As for his conditioning, it is generally very rare to see a full heavyweight with great conditioning. I can think of a handful, so it's not impossible, obviously, but carrying that much weight, and having to lug all that arm-weight around for each punch just seems arduous. Nice reference to the Diaz/Lawler fight. That's literally one of my favorite fights of all time, and catapulted Diaz into a totally different tier from where I thought he was. Joe Rogan's announcing on that fight was also, ironically, perfect.
    - mistermann 11y ago
      I'm not even asking for great cardio, just not atrocious! I hope Frank gets some work commentating, he's very knowledgeable. I love the Lawler fight, but to me the Zaromskis fight was Nick at his peak, and the Santos fight showed his mastery of striking and finishing on the ground. Joe Rogan is always great, to me he is almost the perfect commentator, deep knowledge of the sports, loves it with a passion, picks up on the smallest things and communicates all this beautifully.
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raverbashing 11y ago
> You can make the case that both age, and the sport evolves around them and they regressed towards the mean. I'd say also mechanical stress causing his shin to snap like a twig
tw04 11y ago
I don't think there's any question about BJ Penn's motivation. Start of his career: http://i.imgur.com/qg7cg2Z.png http://i.imgur.com/qg7cg2Z.png A few years in: http://i.imgur.com/txcwmaw.jpg http://i.imgur.com/txcwmaw.jpg He lost his drive very, very early on in his career.
- coryl 11y ago
  Physique isn't a great indicator of motivation. Don't know when that picture was taken, but he did go up to heavyweight to fight Machida at one point.

bmelton 11y ago

BJ Penn is easily one of my favorites. I'm actually upset at the fact that seemingly, the more motivation he found, the more likely he was to engage in a stand-up battle, despite his obvious advantages on the ground. Quite possibly there are factors that I'm not privy to (like age inhibiting his flexibility or something), but I've never seen anybody as creative on the ground as he was (though there are some modern fighters that are getting there), and definitely not of his time, but yeah, for a long time, he rode the coattails of his raw talent and didn't train as competitively as many of those who ultimately passed him by. Frank Mir is, in my opinion, his polar opposite (in too many ways to list).

balls187 11y ago
I always respected Frank Mir's raw talent--after his devastating motorcycle accident that he was still able to return and claim the heavyweight title. As someone who has admiration for the "veterans" of the octagon, I'm really happy to see the resurgence of Andrei Arlovski.
- bmelton 11y ago
  Arlovski has been a master of reinventing himself as needed. I haven't seen much of the "old guard" adapt to a sport that evolves as quickly as MMA has as well as he has done so. That said, I would probably put Frank Mir right up there on adaptability, and Mir's last fight against Todd Duffee was simply amazing.
mistermann 11y ago
I actually think BJ and Frank are very similar in that their downfall was lack of training. In BJ's case, being generally in poor shape much of the time, but mainly not focusing on his core talents and as you say, getting by on raw natural talent until that was no longer the case. The part that makes me so sad about BJ is, he was a once in a lifetime fighter, but there really aren't that many fights of his that are worth rewatching many times, really wish he would have stayed on top of his game for longer. I feel similarly about Nick Diaz - a good Diaz fight (ie vs: Lawler, Zaromskis, Santos) and a good BJ fight are just wonderful to watch. In Frank's case, he just always gases early, often by the end of the first round. He's very talented but if you can't use that talent for much more than 3 rounds, you can't get too far.
- bmelton 11y ago
  I don't think Mir has that much ambition at being a 5-round fighter any time soon. Not that he probably couldn't do it if he set his sights on it, but I think he's reached the golden years of his career and knows it. I don't expect a Couture-style championship run, nor do I think he's particularly aiming at one. As for his conditioning, it is generally very rare to see a full heavyweight with great conditioning. I can think of a handful, so it's not impossible, obviously, but carrying that much weight, and having to lug all that arm-weight around for each punch just seems arduous. Nice reference to the Diaz/Lawler fight. That's literally one of my favorite fights of all time, and catapulted Diaz into a totally different tier from where I thought he was. Joe Rogan's announcing on that fight was also, ironically, perfect.
  - mistermann 11y ago
    I'm not even asking for great cardio, just not atrocious! I hope Frank gets some work commentating, he's very knowledgeable. I love the Lawler fight, but to me the Zaromskis fight was Nick at his peak, and the Santos fight showed his mastery of striking and finishing on the ground. Joe Rogan is always great, to me he is almost the perfect commentator, deep knowledge of the sports, loves it with a passion, picks up on the smallest things and communicates all this beautifully.

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raverbashing 11y ago

> You can make the case that both age, and the sport evolves around them and they regressed towards the mean. I'd say also mechanical stress causing his shin to snap like a twig

tw04 11y ago

I don't think there's any question about BJ Penn's motivation. Start of his career: http://i.imgur.com/qg7cg2Z.png http://i.imgur.com/qg7cg2Z.png A few years in: http://i.imgur.com/txcwmaw.jpg http://i.imgur.com/txcwmaw.jpg He lost his drive very, very early on in his career.

coryl 11y ago
Physique isn't a great indicator of motivation. Don't know when that picture was taken, but he did go up to heavyweight to fight Machida at one point.