7 ms·

I'm sick of the circle jerk hatred about open offices. Yes, let's discuss the pros and cons and acknowledge that they don't work for everyone. But no setup wo

I'm sick of the circle jerk hatred about open offices. Yes, let's discuss the pros and cons and acknowledge that they don't work for everyone. But no setup works for everyone. And we need to stop pretending that open office plans are some poorly thought out pranks invented by clueless managers that offer nothing to developers. I am a developer. I am not an extrovert. I love working in an open office, and the one job I had almost 10 years ago that was rows and rows of offices made me MISERABLE. I almost quit but luckily was able to move to a team that had a team area with an open plan. Fact: In today's age of agility, rapid development, minimum viable products, continuous deployment, and short iterations it is much more important that you can discuss things with your coworkers and stakeholders quickly and figure out if you are working on the right thing, rather than going away for 6 months into some basement, close the door, and come back with a finished product. Fact: Distractions are cultural not physical. Provide the team with good quality headphones, shame people who have non-silent notifications on their devices, create a policy where people can indicate when they're deep in thought on something complex and would prefer not to be distracted (eg. Do Not Disturb status on internal chat that you check before messaging someone or tapping them on the shoulder), and provide flex space people can go to on a case by case basis for privacy. Do this and all the problems with "focus" that open-office haters complain about GO AWAY.

honest_joe 11y ago
BSHIT. I find your nick quite fitting to what you say. You are an extrovert that loves to keep his mouth open and chit chat a lot. The simple presence of people around you sucks your energy. I doubt you are a real engineer...you are most probably just a manager that tries to convince everyone about the benefits of an open office. Or you are a corporate sellout whore.
- dang 11y ago
  Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News.
a3n 11y ago
> I almost quit but luckily was able to move to a team that had a team area with an open plan. I've worked on a team that had its own large cubicle, with four people in it. We all mostly worked on the same thing, and we could roll ourselves over to screens and have whiteboard discussions. That was great. I've had my own office, with a window. That was even better. Then I shared it with another person. That was still great. Then there were three of us. Conversation stopped. None of us worked on the same thing. And of course I've worked in cubes. What evs. I've never worked in an open office of long tables and no partitions. I know I'd hate not being able to raise my eyes and stare off into space without inadvertently staring at someone nearby. And the distractions would kill me. But I guess that's just me, and all I have to do is see that at the interview so I can say no; problem solved?
masklinn 11y ago
> Fact: In today's age of agility, rapid development, minimum viable products, continuous deployment, and short iterations it is much more important that you can discuss things with your coworkers and stakeholders quickly and figure out if you are working on the right thing Fact: that has absolutely no relation to offices. And "offices" doesn't have to mean singles either (they usually don't in my experience). > Provide the team with good quality headphones I can't wear headphones. I literally, physically, can't wear headphones for more than 10~15 minutes, it starts hurting like somebody's driving nails through my eardrums. Now what? > shame people who have non-silent notifications on their devices And people who have bodily functions, and people who put the volume too high on their headphones, and people who type too hard, and people with tics. Just shame people on a general basis really, that makes for great esprit de corps. > Do this and all the problems with "focus" that open-office haters complain about GO AWAY. Yes, everybody must love what you love and you can't be wrong, because "no setup works for everyone" except for the one you want.
- madeofpalk 11y ago
  > I can't wear headphones. [...] Now what? Thankfully you're in the minority and everyone else is quiet wearing headphones, so you don't have to.
  - AlexandrB 11y ago
    Can't tell if you're joking. Poe's law...
    - madeofpalk 11y ago
      Joking, but I'm guessing in practice it would be somewhat true?
- Anderkent 11y ago
  >I can't wear headphones. I literally, physically, can't wear headphones for more than 10~15 minutes, it starts hurting like somebody's driving nails through my eardrums. Now what? See a doctor? That's definitely not normal.
a3n 11y ago
> Provide the team with good quality headphones Headphones are a cognitive and physical distraction to me. When I think, I only want to think about what I'm thinking about. I only like listening to music when I'm not trying to accomplish something. Headphones are merely an inferior office, with its walls shrunk down to fit your head.
voidz 11y ago
You need to chill. It reads like you're shouting this to my face. "The best defense is an offense" style. Not saying you aren't allowed to be annoyed, just saying it's hard for me to read what you say and not be distracted by the boatload of hurt accompanying it.
RogerL 11y ago
> rather than going away for 6 months into some basement, That's a false dichotomy. > Fact: Distractions are cultural not physical. Citation needed. Every study suggests you are wrong.
Sir_Substance 11y ago
>Fact: Distractions are cultural not physical. Provide the team with good quality headphones, shame people who have non-silent notifications on their devices, create a policy where people can indicate when they're deep in thought on something complex and would prefer not to be distracted Managers who deliberately create environments where headphones are mandatory should be brought up on charges. Basic rule of thumb: If your headphones are loud enough to block out ambient conversation, they're damaging your ears. In 20 years, deafness is going to be associated with programmers in the same way we associate black lung with coal miners. Also, I'm happy for you that your brain is only derailed by particularly loud ringtones or people tapping you on the shoulder, you lucked out on that one! But my brain is different: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misophonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misophonia
- sthomas1618 11y ago
  While its true that headphones are associated with hearing loss, there are lots of headphones out there that have noise-canceling capabilities without being excessively loud.
  - sergiosgc 11y ago
    Noise cancelling works great with cyclic sounds, such as an airplane engine. With acyclic sounds, such as conversations? They're rubish. No headphone in the market today can cancel out[1] a conversation with a method other than playing another sound high enough to cancel it. [1] By cancel out, I mean make it impossible to understand the conversation, while the headphones are silent or playing in low volume.
    - zimpenfish 11y ago
      I've got a pair of [1] in currently, no music, and they're doing a pretty good job of drowning out people talking at normal volume 6ft away. I'll admit they're doing a less good job of the strident conversation 10ft away and the plague of ringing phones but without music, I'm ok with that. (NB. This reply entirely useless if you can't tolerate in-ear buds.) [1] http://www.etymotic.com/consumer/earphones/ek5.html http://www.etymotic.com/consumer/earphones/ek5.html
marcosdumay 11y ago
> In today's age of agility, rapid development, minimum viable products, continuous deployment, and short iterations You know, that line is a loud bullshit alarm all by itself. But I'll bite anyway. Open offices make communication harder. Much harder. You can barely talk to someone with you equipment around without disturbing someone. So you must choose, either you talk or you produce something.
- deanCommie 11y ago
  Which part is bullshit? Prototyping? Shipping fast? CD? MVPs? If you are working at a company in 2015 and you are not working on an OS, and you are not doing these things, you are a dinosaur. Yes, you disturb someone. You let them consider whether they want to pause what they are doing and join your conversation, and make it more productive, or put their headphones on and tune you out. The choice exists.
  - notacoward 11y ago
    > You let them consider whether they want to pause what they are doing Too late. Train of thought already lost. Learn to do your own work instead of harassing those around you to help.
  - marcosdumay 11y ago
    Looks like I inadvertently trolled a troll :) No, none of those are bullshit. The idea that they are new is complete bullshit, and the idea that throwing those terms around justifies something is also so.
prawn 11y ago
For me, life at work is really important. I want to enjoy my time at the office, and that includes socialising while working (where appropriate) - talking about the music we're playing, sharing work problems, complaining about being hungry, etc. I'd find it too stagnant and boring otherwise. My desk jobs (all web stuff) have been: - open room of around 15 people, bit of chit-chat but mostly quiet - small area of 3-4, disparate types so very quiet - large divided room of 10, pretty raucous, very fun, lots of trash talking - small area, quiet, mostly alone - room of 4-5, very social - room of 3-4, we barely shut up all day while working; put headphones on if you want to concentrate I'd hate to have a room to myself all day. If I want a stretch like that, I come in early or work later than others.
edem 11y ago
Just because you like it does not mean that a lot of people likes it. As to reflect to your "Fact"s: "Fact" 0: In today's agility etc: this is mostly true for startups where you have a product owner who does not really know what he wants. If you use for example SCRUM you plan beforehand and you have an immutable sprint when you know what to work on thus you can work uninterrupted for 1-2 weeks then you can have a meeting to discuss the direction and have a retrospective + planning. The "work for 6 months in a basement" is an exaggeration and no one works like that today (except for the developer of Dwarf Fortress but it is another story). So the point is: you can be agile/rapid/do MVPs/etc and uninterrupted at the same time. I have done it at many companies so I know it works. "Fact" 1: Distractions have nothing to do with culture. People in an open office distract you simply because your preferences does not match: * switches off air conditioning * bumps your chair because of small spaces * turns on the lights (which you don't like) just to name a few. Another thing is that policies work in theory but in reality most people will think that their problem is more important than some policy and will go to your desk and ask about something (and in most cases the will know the answer when the have finished speaking). If you have a private office it acts as a barrier for such distractions.
- deanCommie 11y ago
  You can go very far down the wrong path in a 2 week planned sprint. Sorry, even with a well planned sprint and an experienced product owner, you still have a lot of questions that need to be evaluated halfway through the sprint, and talking to others is how you resolve them. As for distractions...are you such a precious princess that someone adjusting the light level or bumping into your chair completely removes your ability to be productive? How do you get by and achieve anything in this world? Why are we optimizing to create work environments for such snobbery? What makes you assume that by default EVERY single problem that others might have is not worthy of an interruption enough that you need your own private office to protect yourself from the proletariat?
frostmatthew 11y ago
> But no setup works for everyone. Sure, but that doesn't mean you just choose whatever because it won't be best for everyone. You pick what will work best for most people, and studies consistently show that is not an open office layout. > In today's age of agility, rapid development, minimum viable products, continuous deployment, and short iterations Not every developer is writing code for a seed stage startup trying to get an MVP out the door. In fact, most aren't. For small/early-stage startups I totally think open offices make the most sense. > Provide the team with good quality headphones Headphones help decrease audio distractions, but not nearly as much as offices or cubicles. They don't do anything for visual distractions. And not everyone is able to use them (many people find the music as, or more, distracting than the audio distractions they're trying to avoid).
- zimpenfish 11y ago
  > They don't do anything for visual distractions Until recently I was sat next to someone who not only drummed on the desk and with his feet but spent half the day twirling around on his chair like it was a damned fairground ride. Since moving to a new desk, my office life is much less tense and I'm a lot more productive.
exodust 11y ago
> "Fact: In today's age of agility, rapid development, minimum viable products, continuous deployment, and short iterations..." I don't think I would take a job anywhere that held these buzzwords in high regard. They have been discredited time and again as the wankery of company culture. "age of agility"... No. "MVP".... No! "continuous deployment".... kill me now. You mention stakeholders. At my last job, stakeholders were the biggest problem in the company. I had a desk in an open office, and for some reason that meant the project manager had an open invitation to walk up to my desk repeatedly throughout the day bugging me with brain-dead questions and pointless "standups". Yep, she wanted regular standups even though it was just her and myself for many of the minor projects. Jesus I'm glad I got out of there. > "create a policy where people can indicate when they're deep in thought on something complex and would prefer not to be distracted" What policy. Nobody does that.
- omouse 11y ago
  >she wanted regular standups even though it was just her and myself for many of the minor projects This was the most hilarious part of my last company; they hadn't hired any coders yet and I was expected to do a standup meeting with myself and two of my managers. Daily. At my current company we have a daily standup meeting for everyone where the CTO is in on it (can you say micromanager?) and it's just a hassle because you know he's going to come back a few hours later to each of us and ask for a status report anyway.
- deanCommie 11y ago
  Just because "Agile" has been coopted by consultants, doesn't mean that the agile manifesto isn't a worthy axiom to organize by. Minimum Viable product just means get things into customer hands early and get feedback, and refine. Continuous deployment means build quality verification into your process and automate it. These aren't buzzwords this is where modern software development at any serious software company is small and large. These are not fads, these are evolutions. If you don't see that, I don't see a lot of promise in the rest of your career as you will only be able to find work at old-guards that are not working on anything meaningful or significant.
  - 11y ago
apetrovic 11y ago
> Provide the team with good quality headphones Every time when open offices are mentioned, there's a cure for people who prefer quiet working environment. Well, fuck headphones. I don't want to wear headphones all day just to be able to focus.

honest_joe 11y ago

BSHIT. I find your nick quite fitting to what you say. You are an extrovert that loves to keep his mouth open and chit chat a lot. The simple presence of people around you sucks your energy. I doubt you are a real engineer...you are most probably just a manager that tries to convince everyone about the benefits of an open office. Or you are a corporate sellout whore.

dang 11y ago
Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News.

a3n 11y ago

> I almost quit but luckily was able to move to a team that had a team area with an open plan. I've worked on a team that had its own large cubicle, with four people in it. We all mostly worked on the same thing, and we could roll ourselves over to screens and have whiteboard discussions. That was great. I've had my own office, with a window. That was even better. Then I shared it with another person. That was still great. Then there were three of us. Conversation stopped. None of us worked on the same thing. And of course I've worked in cubes. What evs. I've never worked in an open office of long tables and no partitions. I know I'd hate not being able to raise my eyes and stare off into space without inadvertently staring at someone nearby. And the distractions would kill me. But I guess that's just me, and all I have to do is see that at the interview so I can say no; problem solved?

masklinn 11y ago

> Fact: In today's age of agility, rapid development, minimum viable products, continuous deployment, and short iterations it is much more important that you can discuss things with your coworkers and stakeholders quickly and figure out if you are working on the right thing Fact: that has absolutely no relation to offices. And "offices" doesn't have to mean singles either (they usually don't in my experience). > Provide the team with good quality headphones I can't wear headphones. I literally, physically, can't wear headphones for more than 10~15 minutes, it starts hurting like somebody's driving nails through my eardrums. Now what? > shame people who have non-silent notifications on their devices And people who have bodily functions, and people who put the volume too high on their headphones, and people who type too hard, and people with tics. Just shame people on a general basis really, that makes for great esprit de corps. > Do this and all the problems with "focus" that open-office haters complain about GO AWAY. Yes, everybody must love what you love and you can't be wrong, because "no setup works for everyone" except for the one you want.

madeofpalk 11y ago
> I can't wear headphones. [...] Now what? Thankfully you're in the minority and everyone else is quiet wearing headphones, so you don't have to.
- AlexandrB 11y ago
  Can't tell if you're joking. Poe's law...
  - madeofpalk 11y ago
    Joking, but I'm guessing in practice it would be somewhat true?
Anderkent 11y ago
>I can't wear headphones. I literally, physically, can't wear headphones for more than 10~15 minutes, it starts hurting like somebody's driving nails through my eardrums. Now what? See a doctor? That's definitely not normal.

a3n 11y ago

> Provide the team with good quality headphones Headphones are a cognitive and physical distraction to me. When I think, I only want to think about what I'm thinking about. I only like listening to music when I'm not trying to accomplish something. Headphones are merely an inferior office, with its walls shrunk down to fit your head.

voidz 11y ago

You need to chill. It reads like you're shouting this to my face. "The best defense is an offense" style. Not saying you aren't allowed to be annoyed, just saying it's hard for me to read what you say and not be distracted by the boatload of hurt accompanying it.

RogerL 11y ago

> rather than going away for 6 months into some basement, That's a false dichotomy. > Fact: Distractions are cultural not physical. Citation needed. Every study suggests you are wrong.

Sir_Substance 11y ago

>Fact: Distractions are cultural not physical. Provide the team with good quality headphones, shame people who have non-silent notifications on their devices, create a policy where people can indicate when they're deep in thought on something complex and would prefer not to be distracted Managers who deliberately create environments where headphones are mandatory should be brought up on charges. Basic rule of thumb: If your headphones are loud enough to block out ambient conversation, they're damaging your ears. In 20 years, deafness is going to be associated with programmers in the same way we associate black lung with coal miners. Also, I'm happy for you that your brain is only derailed by particularly loud ringtones or people tapping you on the shoulder, you lucked out on that one! But my brain is different: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misophonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misophonia

sthomas1618 11y ago
While its true that headphones are associated with hearing loss, there are lots of headphones out there that have noise-canceling capabilities without being excessively loud.
- sergiosgc 11y ago
  Noise cancelling works great with cyclic sounds, such as an airplane engine. With acyclic sounds, such as conversations? They're rubish. No headphone in the market today can cancel out[1] a conversation with a method other than playing another sound high enough to cancel it. [1] By cancel out, I mean make it impossible to understand the conversation, while the headphones are silent or playing in low volume.
  - zimpenfish 11y ago
    I've got a pair of [1] in currently, no music, and they're doing a pretty good job of drowning out people talking at normal volume 6ft away. I'll admit they're doing a less good job of the strident conversation 10ft away and the plague of ringing phones but without music, I'm ok with that. (NB. This reply entirely useless if you can't tolerate in-ear buds.) [1] http://www.etymotic.com/consumer/earphones/ek5.html http://www.etymotic.com/consumer/earphones/ek5.html

marcosdumay 11y ago

> In today's age of agility, rapid development, minimum viable products, continuous deployment, and short iterations You know, that line is a loud bullshit alarm all by itself. But I'll bite anyway. Open offices make communication harder. Much harder. You can barely talk to someone with you equipment around without disturbing someone. So you must choose, either you talk or you produce something.

deanCommie 11y ago
Which part is bullshit? Prototyping? Shipping fast? CD? MVPs? If you are working at a company in 2015 and you are not working on an OS, and you are not doing these things, you are a dinosaur. Yes, you disturb someone. You let them consider whether they want to pause what they are doing and join your conversation, and make it more productive, or put their headphones on and tune you out. The choice exists.
- notacoward 11y ago
  > You let them consider whether they want to pause what they are doing Too late. Train of thought already lost. Learn to do your own work instead of harassing those around you to help.
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  Looks like I inadvertently trolled a troll :) No, none of those are bullshit. The idea that they are new is complete bullshit, and the idea that throwing those terms around justifies something is also so.

prawn 11y ago

For me, life at work is really important. I want to enjoy my time at the office, and that includes socialising while working (where appropriate) - talking about the music we're playing, sharing work problems, complaining about being hungry, etc. I'd find it too stagnant and boring otherwise. My desk jobs (all web stuff) have been: - open room of around 15 people, bit of chit-chat but mostly quiet - small area of 3-4, disparate types so very quiet - large divided room of 10, pretty raucous, very fun, lots of trash talking - small area, quiet, mostly alone - room of 4-5, very social - room of 3-4, we barely shut up all day while working; put headphones on if you want to concentrate I'd hate to have a room to myself all day. If I want a stretch like that, I come in early or work later than others.

edem 11y ago

Just because you like it does not mean that a lot of people likes it. As to reflect to your "Fact"s: "Fact" 0: In today's agility etc: this is mostly true for startups where you have a product owner who does not really know what he wants. If you use for example SCRUM you plan beforehand and you have an immutable sprint when you know what to work on thus you can work uninterrupted for 1-2 weeks then you can have a meeting to discuss the direction and have a retrospective + planning. The "work for 6 months in a basement" is an exaggeration and no one works like that today (except for the developer of Dwarf Fortress but it is another story). So the point is: you can be agile/rapid/do MVPs/etc and uninterrupted at the same time. I have done it at many companies so I know it works. "Fact" 1: Distractions have nothing to do with culture. People in an open office distract you simply because your preferences does not match: * switches off air conditioning * bumps your chair because of small spaces * turns on the lights (which you don't like) just to name a few. Another thing is that policies work in theory but in reality most people will think that their problem is more important than some policy and will go to your desk and ask about something (and in most cases the will know the answer when the have finished speaking). If you have a private office it acts as a barrier for such distractions.

deanCommie 11y ago
You can go very far down the wrong path in a 2 week planned sprint. Sorry, even with a well planned sprint and an experienced product owner, you still have a lot of questions that need to be evaluated halfway through the sprint, and talking to others is how you resolve them. As for distractions...are you such a precious princess that someone adjusting the light level or bumping into your chair completely removes your ability to be productive? How do you get by and achieve anything in this world? Why are we optimizing to create work environments for such snobbery? What makes you assume that by default EVERY single problem that others might have is not worthy of an interruption enough that you need your own private office to protect yourself from the proletariat?

frostmatthew 11y ago

> But no setup works for everyone. Sure, but that doesn't mean you just choose whatever because it won't be best for everyone. You pick what will work best for most people, and studies consistently show that is not an open office layout. > In today's age of agility, rapid development, minimum viable products, continuous deployment, and short iterations Not every developer is writing code for a seed stage startup trying to get an MVP out the door. In fact, most aren't. For small/early-stage startups I totally think open offices make the most sense. > Provide the team with good quality headphones Headphones help decrease audio distractions, but not nearly as much as offices or cubicles. They don't do anything for visual distractions. And not everyone is able to use them (many people find the music as, or more, distracting than the audio distractions they're trying to avoid).

zimpenfish 11y ago
> They don't do anything for visual distractions Until recently I was sat next to someone who not only drummed on the desk and with his feet but spent half the day twirling around on his chair like it was a damned fairground ride. Since moving to a new desk, my office life is much less tense and I'm a lot more productive.

exodust 11y ago

> "Fact: In today's age of agility, rapid development, minimum viable products, continuous deployment, and short iterations..." I don't think I would take a job anywhere that held these buzzwords in high regard. They have been discredited time and again as the wankery of company culture. "age of agility"... No. "MVP".... No! "continuous deployment".... kill me now. You mention stakeholders. At my last job, stakeholders were the biggest problem in the company. I had a desk in an open office, and for some reason that meant the project manager had an open invitation to walk up to my desk repeatedly throughout the day bugging me with brain-dead questions and pointless "standups". Yep, she wanted regular standups even though it was just her and myself for many of the minor projects. Jesus I'm glad I got out of there. > "create a policy where people can indicate when they're deep in thought on something complex and would prefer not to be distracted" What policy. Nobody does that.

omouse 11y ago
>she wanted regular standups even though it was just her and myself for many of the minor projects This was the most hilarious part of my last company; they hadn't hired any coders yet and I was expected to do a standup meeting with myself and two of my managers. Daily. At my current company we have a daily standup meeting for everyone where the CTO is in on it (can you say micromanager?) and it's just a hassle because you know he's going to come back a few hours later to each of us and ask for a status report anyway.
deanCommie 11y ago
Just because "Agile" has been coopted by consultants, doesn't mean that the agile manifesto isn't a worthy axiom to organize by. Minimum Viable product just means get things into customer hands early and get feedback, and refine. Continuous deployment means build quality verification into your process and automate it. These aren't buzzwords this is where modern software development at any serious software company is small and large. These are not fads, these are evolutions. If you don't see that, I don't see a lot of promise in the rest of your career as you will only be able to find work at old-guards that are not working on anything meaningful or significant.
- 11y ago

apetrovic 11y ago

> Provide the team with good quality headphones Every time when open offices are mentioned, there's a cure for people who prefer quiet working environment. Well, fuck headphones. I don't want to wear headphones all day just to be able to focus.