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One got to love bright minds who ever thought connecting any relevant part of a cars control mechanisms to the internet was a good idea.
by skimmas 11y ago
One got to love bright minds who ever thought connecting any relevant part of a cars control mechanisms to the internet was a good idea.
- hueving 11y agoThe issue is the stupid media center. People want that to have Internet. Then at the same time they want it to display all of the climate details and other system info that comes off the CAN.
- jasimq 11y agoBut surely they can be isolated systems
- jacquesm 11y agoThey can be but they're not. Once you share a wire all bets are off.
- UnoriginalGuy 11y agoBy that logic there's no security on the internet at all. Everything "shares a wire" after all. Security is about degrees and nuances. These kind of black & white statements are unhelpful and unrealistic.
- justizin 11y ago> By that logic there's no security on the internet at all. Have you /been/ on the internet, lately? ;)
- brudgers 11y agoTwo systems that accept input from the same touchscreen can't be isolated in hardware. From the software side, any portion of each system's interface that overlaps at the touchscreen cannot be isolated. On top of that, if the touchscreen is reprogrammable, then it can be attacked directly and touchscreens are commodity devices not normally considered part of the security infrastructure.
- parineum 11y agoI don't think anybody is upset that their climate control system is exposed to hackers. There are no accelerator/steering/braking controls on the touchscreen (I assume) so those could be isolated but it would require having to separate systems for critical and non-critical operations. The only reason not to do that is because it's more complicated which translates to more expensive.
- jasimq 11y agoExactly
- brudgers 11y agoThe climate control isn't mechanically independent of the engine and other mechanical systems. Even in the primitive cars before digital contols, the heater is dependent on the engine's thermostat (well except for old Bugs and 911's, but then that heat never really worked). In modern cars, the AC may be connected to the engine control system so that power can be redeployed for fuel efficiency or for power in emergency situations or to keep emissions within specification. "Climate control system" is an abstraction over belt driven moving parts.
- djrogers 11y ago> People want Yeah, no. Auto mfr.'s want to reduce the display count to make cars cheaper to make and the interiors simpler to build. I've never ever spoken to or heard form anyone who 'wants' or even kinda likes having their climate controls on the same screen as their maps, pandora, etc. It's confusing, usually cluttered, and complicates things unnecessarily.
- hueving 11y agoHave you ever been in a Tesla?
- raverbashing 11y agoThen it should only read the CAN, or have a limited write capability Customers want things, it's not their responsibility, it's the manufacturer's responsibility to not ship something unsafe
- fnordfnordfnord 11y agoThere are typically at least two CAN buses in many recent cars, one for critical stuff like engine, transmission, etc, and another for less critical things like environmental controls, there is also LIN, FlexRay, MOST, and maybe another one or two that are less popular. One problem is that there is no limitation in the CAN protocol to prevent a node from impersonating the master node. Another is the mutability of a node's firmware.
- netrus 11y agoDoesn't Tesla send over-the-air updates for critical systems to its cars? From my understanding, that means there is a way for a similar attack with a fake-firmware. Am I wrong?
- vvanders 11y agoPretty sure Tesla signs their OTA updates.
- timdiggerm 11y agoNot that that's perfectly secure
- cwyers 11y agoYeah, it's only as secure as Tesla's ability to secure its private key.
- mikeash 11y agoAnd their ability to verify the signature on the car. Even if the private key is totally secure, you could either find a weakness in the signature verification, or find an exploit that lets you bypass it entirely.
- UnoriginalGuy 11y agoThat's an extremely rare vector for exploitation. I can think of one specific case where a vendor completely forgot to check the result of a signature check, but aside from that signature checking is well understood and rarely goes wrong. But to be honest people are taking their specification and dooms-day-ism to stupid extremes. Soon we'll be talking about "it is only as secure as the CPU, what if you find a CPU bug and bypass all security?!"
- ZoFreX 11y ago
- imglorp 11y agoIt's not just internet. There's also a vector that uses Digital Audio Broadcast (radio). source: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33622298 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33622298
- imglorp 11y agoIt's not just internet. There's also a vector that uses Digital Audio Broadcast (radio). source: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33622298 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33622298
- chippy 11y agoThe Internet of Things has lots of bright minds working on it...
- joesmo 11y agoSeriously. That's the real criminal action here.
- justizin 11y agoWith self-driving cars, this is definitely going to be the norm, and this really draws attention to how dangerous they could be, although human-driven cars are also pretty dangerous.
- Jasper_ 11y agoIt's all on the CAN bus anyway. That's how modern cars are built. And hey, if you don't like that, you can always fly on a plane... those surely aren't internet-connected, right? ... Right? http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014-06-06/pdf/2014-13245.pdf http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014-06-06/pdf/2014-13245.pd... http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/669627.pdf#page=23 http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/669627.pdf#page=23