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French Constitutional Council Widely Approves Surveillance Law

124 points by HugoDaniel 11y ago

digital-rubber 11y ago
les Etats-Unis Petit Bravo… </sarcasm>
aikah 11y ago
"socialists"... more like fascists. A sad day indeed.
- loup-vaillant 11y ago
  First, there is no connection. Second, the only thing socialist about our government is the name. They're capitalists like the other big party.
  - vixen99 11y ago
    Wiki: Capitalism is an economic system and a mode of production in which trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned. This is France is it?
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      Sure, if you base your entire understanding of an economic system from the first sentence of a Wikipedia article. You'll see it's much more nuanced just by reading the second paragraph. The French system is usually known as "dirigisme".
    - HugoDaniel 11y ago
      He probably meant that they prefer to serve the interest of big economic groups/industries above the people in the country they are empowered to rule.
      - stock_toaster 11y ago
        I think that is generally referred to as "Corporatism" these days.
      - loup-vaillant 11y ago
        Indeed, that's a more accurate way to put it.
realusername 11y ago
(French here). This is a really sad day for the country. I don't really know what to add here to the conversation, it was pretty much expected after the massive amount of laws during the past 10 years that tried to limit freedom of speech and increase the surveillance, it's just the next step. The country has just reached a new low. I just hoped until the end that it would not pass but I was delusional. As a side effect, it's also going to destroy the few technological businesses we had left, like they needed that... I was really hoping that things would change and that the country could finally take advantage of massive amount of bright minds we have here... So much potential is wasted... Anyway, that will be for another year...
- leap_ahead 11y ago
  (Russian here). I so much understand you brother (or sister). We've got an even harder wave of prohibitive laws and the local IT industry has been brought to its knees. Companies have been leaving, people have been leaving. I haven't seen any appealing job openings for close to two years. I myself am thinking of emigrating, even thought about France, but now I'm not sure it was such a good idea. >> So much potential is wasted... That's the most tragic thing indeed. You can import food, clothes, cars and so on but you can't import talent. When it goes, it's final.
  - realusername 11y ago
    Thank you for this comment. I guess you can understand how depressing it sounds, I go back in France every 2/3 months and everything is worse everytime I go there, and I can do nothing about it. It's really crashing at high speed. I also have a friend in Moscow I discuss with regularly. I can speak basic Russian but I don't mention it normally because it's really a Tarzan-like level, the language is really beautiful. I really hope things are going to improve there also. France is definitely not the place to go for IT, I'm sorry for that.
    - leap_ahead 11y ago
      I'm sorry you're going through that kind of feelings, they're pretty heavy to live with on a daily basis. A month under that stress counts almost as a year. I've always liked France and its culture, and I speak French on some level, I guess that's why I take personally all bad things that I hear from France, as if they concerned mon pays natal. If you'd like we could exchange privately, I could attempt to cheer you up (from the position of a person living in a place that has fallen much lower than yours), though I realize there's not much I can say to remedy the gloom you're seeing around you.
cm2187 11y ago
And what is even more worrying is that the examples of abuse of surveillance laws have been frequent. President Mitterrand was spying on anyone who could expose his lies (bigamy, fake medical certificates). President Hollande was spying on the discussion between former President Sarkozy and his attorney. Even in the US, president Obama was using his own surveillance powers to expose the sources of political journalists. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider how badly these laws can be abused.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Is it just as valid to say that Obama's administration was using its surveillance powers to investigate journalism sources that had straightforwardly broken the law by leaking classified information? James Risen is the most famous of these cases, and his indicted source leaked counterproliferation secrets. I agree that surveillance authority should be tightly restricted, far more than it is today. I'm just on false-equivalence watch. The investigation of Jeffrey Alexander Sterling does not sound equivalent to a sitting head of state snooping directly on his political rival and their lawyer.
  - jkkbjinnknr 11y ago
    No its not as valid, and your contribution is derailing the travesty that is state sanctioned mass surveillance, no amount of evidence of wrong doing will change your mind because you support what is happening, you're very likely being paid to accept what is happening You're concern troll who argues for the status quo, a bootlicking fascist.
  - cm2187 11y ago
    I don't think that in any of the cases I mentioned the president himself was literally listening to some tapes. And the protection of the sources that journalists enjoy is precisely because people leaking information to journalists are breaking laws and internal policies and would fear reprisals otherwise. This is an important counter-power.
    - tptacek 11y ago
loup-vaillant 11y ago
(French here.) I guess this is time to escalate. Let's encrypt as much as we can. And maybe prepare for physical violence. This may get ugly in a few years.
- HugoDaniel 11y ago
  bastille needs to go down again
- leap_ahead 11y ago
  From what I heard French are obliged to surrender encryption keys at the request of authorities or go to jail for a few years for denying their request. The only thing that may be left is to pack your things and go.
  - stzup7 11y ago
    Correct. http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006418646&dateTexte=&categorieLien=cid http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=...
    - martius 11y ago
      You don't have to surrender the key, but you are required to at least decrypt things for the authorities. However, I the twist seems to be in the word "susceptible": any encryption key is susceptible to be somehow used to commit a crime, while on the other hand a jury would probably "deny a request" of the authorities if they can't show enough evidences.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    So what happens if you don't know, forgotten, or never had the encryption key?
- needs 11y ago
  > And maybe prepare for physical violence. This may get ugly in a few years. French here too... This law is sad but keep in mind that our justice is still the only place where they makes sense. Overall, our country is still a great place to live.
rndmind 11y ago
Can anyone offer a detailed explanation of what the French Government has implemented? There is a large movement in france to use encryption software. Hopefully this just fuels the fire.
coldcode 11y ago
"1984" is not only an instructional manual now, it has become a political must-have. At least in the US we have lip-service to privacy and freedom of thought.
CWuestefeld 11y ago
I think this is awful, but is it wrong in the context the council was working in? More specifically, consider how the US Supreme Court works. The Court's job isn't to decide what side is good and what side is evil. Their job is to determine what side is in accordance with the law, and if that law is consonant with our Constitution. How similar to this is the French Constitutional Council? Were they given no choice, and forced to make an ugly decision because it is, indeed, what their Constitution allows? If so, the answer isn't to bemoan the decision and criticize the Council, but to find a way to fix the French Constitution so that it no longer supports this decision.
- fauigerzigerk 11y ago
  I don't know anything about the French constitution, but many constitutions contain very vague or general language and some are very old. Courts often have to rule based on analogies, especially where new technologies are involved.
- loup-vaillant 11y ago
  Having loosely followed the QPC that has just been rejected, I think it's pretty clear they had a case. We should also see the details of this decision. They may have interpreted the law (and documented that interpretation) in a way that makes it less unacceptable. Also, there will a couple other recourse for that same law. It's not over yet.
hiq 11y ago
The education France has provided me with would probably have cost me much more anywhere else in the world. I have always wished to stay here to work, if only to pay some of it back to my country. With a degree in the STEM fields, I expected it would be easy. I did not expect political issues to get in the way. I did not think the misuses of our surveillance system would one day be even remotely on par with those of the US or the UK, to the point that I do not know today where my privacy is breached the more. Of course we say "let's encrypt", we foster the use of Tor and the likes, but that misses the point. There should not even be a case for such a law which will help nothing but totalitarianism and is even a disincentive to investments in France. Still our politicians and administrations have paid little heed to La Quadrature du Net's and other actors' comments. Instead the government drafted this law in haste, seemingly to curtail the democratic process which should have taken place in its entirety, especially for a change that big regarding our freedom. The way I see things, I have two options: leave for another country that still deems privacy as a fundamental liberty, or stay in France and get involved in politics in the hope that I can help reverse the current situation. I do not think I have the skills to get involved in politics, nor do I have the desire to. I guess I will soon be part of their statistics on "brain drain", although right now I feel more ousted from France than attracted to anywhere else.
- etiam 11y ago
  Well articulated. I feel similarly about Sweden. But assuming one does pack up and leave, where would one go? Without doing any real research on it I would have hoped that France, with it's strong historical record on liberty, would be a reasonably good option within Europe, but it seems that may have been no more than wishful thinking on my part.
  - leap_ahead 11y ago
    It may soon be time for extraterrestrial emigration. This planet is done.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > But assuming one does pack up and leave, where would one go? That is an extremely good question and one that I've spent considerable time and funds on trying to answer. In short: Nowhere. There isn't a country that does not have some critical flaw in their political system. If a country without such flaws were come into being it would not last because a country that would 'play nice' with its citizens and that would be efficient with its funds would be over-run by more aggressive neighbors unless it were heavily fortified by natural barriers. The countries that come closest to this in the world today are Iceland and Switzerland.

124 points by HugoDaniel 11y ago

digital-rubber 11y ago

les Etats-Unis Petit Bravo… </sarcasm>

aikah 11y ago

"socialists"... more like fascists. A sad day indeed.

loup-vaillant 11y ago
First, there is no connection. Second, the only thing socialist about our government is the name. They're capitalists like the other big party.
- vixen99 11y ago
  Wiki: Capitalism is an economic system and a mode of production in which trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned. This is France is it?
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    Sure, if you base your entire understanding of an economic system from the first sentence of a Wikipedia article. You'll see it's much more nuanced just by reading the second paragraph. The French system is usually known as "dirigisme".
  - HugoDaniel 11y ago
    He probably meant that they prefer to serve the interest of big economic groups/industries above the people in the country they are empowered to rule.
    - stock_toaster 11y ago
      I think that is generally referred to as "Corporatism" these days.
    - loup-vaillant 11y ago
      Indeed, that's a more accurate way to put it.

realusername 11y ago

(French here). This is a really sad day for the country. I don't really know what to add here to the conversation, it was pretty much expected after the massive amount of laws during the past 10 years that tried to limit freedom of speech and increase the surveillance, it's just the next step. The country has just reached a new low. I just hoped until the end that it would not pass but I was delusional. As a side effect, it's also going to destroy the few technological businesses we had left, like they needed that... I was really hoping that things would change and that the country could finally take advantage of massive amount of bright minds we have here... So much potential is wasted... Anyway, that will be for another year...

leap_ahead 11y ago
(Russian here). I so much understand you brother (or sister). We've got an even harder wave of prohibitive laws and the local IT industry has been brought to its knees. Companies have been leaving, people have been leaving. I haven't seen any appealing job openings for close to two years. I myself am thinking of emigrating, even thought about France, but now I'm not sure it was such a good idea. >> So much potential is wasted... That's the most tragic thing indeed. You can import food, clothes, cars and so on but you can't import talent. When it goes, it's final.
- realusername 11y ago
  Thank you for this comment. I guess you can understand how depressing it sounds, I go back in France every 2/3 months and everything is worse everytime I go there, and I can do nothing about it. It's really crashing at high speed. I also have a friend in Moscow I discuss with regularly. I can speak basic Russian but I don't mention it normally because it's really a Tarzan-like level, the language is really beautiful. I really hope things are going to improve there also. France is definitely not the place to go for IT, I'm sorry for that.
  - leap_ahead 11y ago
    I'm sorry you're going through that kind of feelings, they're pretty heavy to live with on a daily basis. A month under that stress counts almost as a year. I've always liked France and its culture, and I speak French on some level, I guess that's why I take personally all bad things that I hear from France, as if they concerned mon pays natal. If you'd like we could exchange privately, I could attempt to cheer you up (from the position of a person living in a place that has fallen much lower than yours), though I realize there's not much I can say to remedy the gloom you're seeing around you.

cm2187 11y ago

And what is even more worrying is that the examples of abuse of surveillance laws have been frequent. President Mitterrand was spying on anyone who could expose his lies (bigamy, fake medical certificates). President Hollande was spying on the discussion between former President Sarkozy and his attorney. Even in the US, president Obama was using his own surveillance powers to expose the sources of political journalists. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider how badly these laws can be abused.

tptacek 11y ago
Is it just as valid to say that Obama's administration was using its surveillance powers to investigate journalism sources that had straightforwardly broken the law by leaking classified information? James Risen is the most famous of these cases, and his indicted source leaked counterproliferation secrets. I agree that surveillance authority should be tightly restricted, far more than it is today. I'm just on false-equivalence watch. The investigation of Jeffrey Alexander Sterling does not sound equivalent to a sitting head of state snooping directly on his political rival and their lawyer.
- jkkbjinnknr 11y ago
  No its not as valid, and your contribution is derailing the travesty that is state sanctioned mass surveillance, no amount of evidence of wrong doing will change your mind because you support what is happening, you're very likely being paid to accept what is happening You're concern troll who argues for the status quo, a bootlicking fascist.
- cm2187 11y ago
  I don't think that in any of the cases I mentioned the president himself was literally listening to some tapes. And the protection of the sources that journalists enjoy is precisely because people leaking information to journalists are breaking laws and internal policies and would fear reprisals otherwise. This is an important counter-power.
  - tptacek 11y ago

loup-vaillant 11y ago

(French here.) I guess this is time to escalate. Let's encrypt as much as we can. And maybe prepare for physical violence. This may get ugly in a few years.

HugoDaniel 11y ago
bastille needs to go down again
leap_ahead 11y ago
From what I heard French are obliged to surrender encryption keys at the request of authorities or go to jail for a few years for denying their request. The only thing that may be left is to pack your things and go.
- stzup7 11y ago
  Correct. http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006418646&dateTexte=&categorieLien=cid http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=...
  - martius 11y ago
    You don't have to surrender the key, but you are required to at least decrypt things for the authorities. However, I the twist seems to be in the word "susceptible": any encryption key is susceptible to be somehow used to commit a crime, while on the other hand a jury would probably "deny a request" of the authorities if they can't show enough evidences.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  So what happens if you don't know, forgotten, or never had the encryption key?
needs 11y ago
> And maybe prepare for physical violence. This may get ugly in a few years. French here too... This law is sad but keep in mind that our justice is still the only place where they makes sense. Overall, our country is still a great place to live.

rndmind 11y ago

Can anyone offer a detailed explanation of what the French Government has implemented? There is a large movement in france to use encryption software. Hopefully this just fuels the fire.

coldcode 11y ago

"1984" is not only an instructional manual now, it has become a political must-have. At least in the US we have lip-service to privacy and freedom of thought.

CWuestefeld 11y ago

I think this is awful, but is it wrong in the context the council was working in? More specifically, consider how the US Supreme Court works. The Court's job isn't to decide what side is good and what side is evil. Their job is to determine what side is in accordance with the law, and if that law is consonant with our Constitution. How similar to this is the French Constitutional Council? Were they given no choice, and forced to make an ugly decision because it is, indeed, what their Constitution allows? If so, the answer isn't to bemoan the decision and criticize the Council, but to find a way to fix the French Constitution so that it no longer supports this decision.

fauigerzigerk 11y ago
I don't know anything about the French constitution, but many constitutions contain very vague or general language and some are very old. Courts often have to rule based on analogies, especially where new technologies are involved.
loup-vaillant 11y ago
Having loosely followed the QPC that has just been rejected, I think it's pretty clear they had a case. We should also see the details of this decision. They may have interpreted the law (and documented that interpretation) in a way that makes it less unacceptable. Also, there will a couple other recourse for that same law. It's not over yet.

hiq 11y ago

The education France has provided me with would probably have cost me much more anywhere else in the world. I have always wished to stay here to work, if only to pay some of it back to my country. With a degree in the STEM fields, I expected it would be easy. I did not expect political issues to get in the way. I did not think the misuses of our surveillance system would one day be even remotely on par with those of the US or the UK, to the point that I do not know today where my privacy is breached the more. Of course we say "let's encrypt", we foster the use of Tor and the likes, but that misses the point. There should not even be a case for such a law which will help nothing but totalitarianism and is even a disincentive to investments in France. Still our politicians and administrations have paid little heed to La Quadrature du Net's and other actors' comments. Instead the government drafted this law in haste, seemingly to curtail the democratic process which should have taken place in its entirety, especially for a change that big regarding our freedom. The way I see things, I have two options: leave for another country that still deems privacy as a fundamental liberty, or stay in France and get involved in politics in the hope that I can help reverse the current situation. I do not think I have the skills to get involved in politics, nor do I have the desire to. I guess I will soon be part of their statistics on "brain drain", although right now I feel more ousted from France than attracted to anywhere else.

etiam 11y ago
Well articulated. I feel similarly about Sweden. But assuming one does pack up and leave, where would one go? Without doing any real research on it I would have hoped that France, with it's strong historical record on liberty, would be a reasonably good option within Europe, but it seems that may have been no more than wishful thinking on my part.
- leap_ahead 11y ago
  It may soon be time for extraterrestrial emigration. This planet is done.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > But assuming one does pack up and leave, where would one go? That is an extremely good question and one that I've spent considerable time and funds on trying to answer. In short: Nowhere. There isn't a country that does not have some critical flaw in their political system. If a country without such flaws were come into being it would not last because a country that would 'play nice' with its citizens and that would be efficient with its funds would be over-run by more aggressive neighbors unless it were heavily fortified by natural barriers. The countries that come closest to this in the world today are Iceland and Switzerland.