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'Oldest' Koran fragments found in Birmingham University
- cies 11y agoNo mention of what chapters/verses? And no digitized images so we can compare it to current mainstream versions... Too bad.
- cletus 11y agoCNN seems to have a better source: http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/22/europe/uk-quran-birmingham-manuscript/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/22/europe/uk-quran-birmingham-man... > The two parchment leaves are believed to contain parts of Suras (chapters) 18 to 20, written with ink in an early form of Arabic script known as Hijazi.
- kenbellows 11y agoGive it time, I'm sure it'll be released. Though being in Hijazi script might make it somewhat more difficult to compare with modern Arabic versions anyway
- Jun8 11y agoIt's from the Surat Taha (found from simple Google search, but also indicated by the first two Muqattaat letters), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta-Ha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta-Ha. BTW, the search for the meaning of these letters that appear in a small percentage of suras is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqatta%27at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqatta%27at
- Nemant 11y ago3rd image from the top. The verses are highlighted and a translation is presented Here's the digitized version: http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/Mingana/Islamic_Arabic_1572a/Page_1r/viewer/ http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/Mingana/Islamic_Arabic_157... In case you know how to read arabic: https://www.facebook.com/yasir.qadhi/photos/a.10150091939643300.277936.19667888299/10153217261258300/?type=1&theater https://www.facebook.com/yasir.qadhi/photos/a.10150091939643...
- Nemant 11y ago"If it had been from anyone other than God, they would have found much inconsistency in it." (The Holy Qur'an, An-Nisa'; 4:82) "Truly, We have revealed this remembrance, and We shall, for sure, preserve it." (The Holy Qur'an, Al-Hijr; 15:9) Digitized version: http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/Mingana/Islamic_Arabic_1572a/Page_1r/viewer/ http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/Mingana/Islamic_Arabic_157... In case you know how to read arabic: http://tinyurl.com/nr5gvz9 http://tinyurl.com/nr5gvz9
- waps 11y ago"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?" Given the context, and the concept of abrogation itself, doesn't the quran pretty much says about itself that it was changed. And this verse itself is inconsistent since it both says it was changed and not changed. And of course one can easily find examples of changes. And if you want to laugh about the whole thing : "Wahadi says that this verse was sent down because the associators said, "Do you not see Muhammad, how he commands his people to do something, then forbids them to do it and commands them to do its opposite? Today he says one thing and tomorrow he changes his mind regarding it. The Qur'an is no more than the words of Muhammad, which he utters from himself. It is composed of words which contradict one another." Thus says Wahidi, God sent down verse 101 of al-Nahl (Q. 16), and this verse (Wahidi, p. 32: see also Zamakhshari, I. p. 303). Tabari interprets abrogation (naskh) broadly as "what we [that is, God] abrogate regarding the precept of a verse which we change, or for which we substitute another, so that what is lawful may become unlawful and what is unlawful may become lawful; what is permitted may become prohibited and what is prohibited may become permitted. This however, can only be done with regard to commands and prohibitions... but as for reports or narratives, they can neither be abrogated nor can they abrogate" (Tabari, II, pp. 471-472; see also Shawkani, I, pp. 125-126)." Confused little god you have there, no ?
- scottshea 11y agoNot really an insightful comment but I first read that as Brigham Young University which makes it all that more impactful... and funny
- lingben 11y agoas already mentioned in the article[1], the velum may be much older than the text written on it since it was very valuable and regularly reused: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palimpsest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palimpsest really surprised that they did not test for any previous washed text underneath since this is both common and the test quite simple and easy to perform EDIT: [1] my mistake, it was in the NYT article on the same topic: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/world/europe/quran-fragments-university-birmingham.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/world/europe/quran-fragmen... Saud al-Sarhan, the director of research at the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, said he doubted that the manuscript found in Birmingham was as old as the researchers claimed, noting that its Arabic script included dots and separated chapters — features that were introduced later. He also said that dating the skin on which the text was written did not prove when it was written. Manuscript skins were sometimes washed clean and reused later for new writings, he said.
- aerodog 11y agoI didn't see that mentioned in the article - can you paste the precise line you mean?
- lingben 11y agoah, my mistake, I read it in the NYT article: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/world/europe/quran-fragments-university-birmingham.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/world/europe/quran-fragmen... "Saud al-Sarhan, the director of research at the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, said he doubted that the manuscript found in Birmingham was as old as the researchers claimed, noting that its Arabic script included dots and separated chapters — features that were introduced later. He also said that dating the skin on which the text was written did not prove when it was written. Manuscript skins were sometimes washed clean and reused later for new writings, he said."
- HillRat 11y agoParenthetically, the "dots" mentioned were a later diacritical feature added to Qur'anic texts to mark the placement of short vowels; since Arabic, like Hebrew, elides short vowel sounds in the written text, Muslims without Arabic fluency need markers to show them how to verbalize the Qur'an. (Arabic is seen in Islam as a particularly holy language, and while the Qur'an is widely translated, it is considered especially pious to recite and memorize the text in the original Arabic, even if one does not know the language.) I believe diacritics were introduced some 250 years after Muhammad, as they were only needed as Islam expanded beyond the Arabic-speaking world.
- msoad 11y agoIt's funny how Muslims claim it's a "miracle" of Koran that it hasn't changed since it was published. Of course it hasn't changed, technology was at a point that it was possible to keep a book from forgers but publishing it heavily and also, there were many muslims trying to protect Koran from day one. P.S. I born Muslim so I get to be critical about Islam and I think everyone should be able to do so.
- ConceptJunkie 11y agoActually, it's quite explainable. Unlike the Bible, the "official" version of the Koran has always been the original text in the original version of Arabic spoken in the 7th century. Since it was written down at the time without having to rely on decades or even centuries of oral tradition, as was the case with the Christian and Hebrew scriptures, it's understandable that the text has remained unchanged. Once you start translating something into different languages, that's when the unavoidable changes start working their way in. So, I agree with you that it's not "miraculous" in any way, but it is a fascinating and important archaeological find.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago>it's understandable that the text has remained unchanged // Understandable but not true. There are, currently extent, versions of the text with variations. There was a significant effort made to create a single authoritative version to enforce the narrative of the text being a perfect copy of one in heaven.
- x5n1 11y agoThere was no day one Quran. It was compiled many year's after Muhammad's death. There were many versions of the Quran that were destroyed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran#Uthman_ibn_Affan_and_the_canonization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran#Uthman_ib... "When the task was finished Uthman kept one copy in Medina and sent others to Kufa, Baṣra, Damascus, and, according to some accounts, Mecca, and ordered that all other variant copies of the Quran to be destroyed. This was done everywhere except in Kufa, where some scholars argue that, Ibn Masʿūd and his followers refused." Thousands of people claim below: The famous ten People who form the chains of narration regarding the Quran are as follows. Umar ibn al Khattab [26] Uthman bin Affan[27] Ali ibn abi Talib[28] Abu Musa al Ash'ari[29] Ubay Ibn Ka'b[30] Abdullah ibn Masood[31] Zayd Ibn Thabit[32] Abu Hurairah[33] Abdullah Ibn Abbas[34] Abu al-Darda[35] Amongst those ten the two most important people were zayd ibn thabit the personal scribe of Muhammad and Ubay ibn Ka'b who was the foremost authority on the Quran after zaid.[36][37] So 12 people were essentially responsible for Quran, mostly through hearsay.
- rikkus 11y agoPerhaps coincidentally, on BBC Four tonight a programme was shown which describes vellum (the material on which this manuscript was written) and the process behind creating it. A clip is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01pr4ty http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01pr4ty A slightly longer clip on the same subject: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00n3rdf http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00n3rdf
- duaneb 11y agoWhat does this even mean to find it in the University? This is almost more interesting to me than the text itself, which has been remarkably well attested through the ages (or at least, versions of it have been independently attested).
- INTPenis 11y agoMy interest was piqued so I googled the oldest complete copy of the koran and found this[1]. [1] http://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/middle-east/worlds-oldest-quran-discovered-and-may-be-linked-to-imam-ali-30011/ http://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/middle-east/worlds-ol...
- godgod 11y agoI vote to burn it...give the radical Islamist some of their own medicine. Two wrongs don't make a right but when you have ISIS exterminating entire villages full of Christians and destroying ancient artifacts for fun, we should see how they like it. I know this will cause a backlash because there is no reasoning with mad men.
- cmscmscms 11y agoI would also like to point out amongst Muslims there is a concept of multiple Qira'aat(readings) where there are multiple dialects in which the Quran is read. These readings may differ by a couple of letters for a specific word every so often. This was the reason the Quran was compiled into one form during the time of 'Uthmaan, to prevent confusion amongst the common Muslims. Nevertheless these "readings" did not die, but rather continue to thrive to this day. This allows for a broader range of meanings, so it is not something avoided by Muslims rather accepted openly as a part of what they believe was revealed.
- jay_kyburz 11y agoIs it just me or is there something strange about the way this piece is written. Feels like it is written by an bot or somehow optimized for search. The manuscript, written in "Hijazi script", an early form of written Arabic, becomes one of the oldest known fragments of the Koran. Because radiocarbon dating creates a range of possible ages, there is a handful of other manuscripts in public and private collections which overlap. So this makes it impossible to say that any is definitively the oldest. But the latest possible date of the Birmingham discovery - 645 - would put it among the very oldest. Oldest, Oldest Oldest. Ok, I get the picture.