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You can also blame subsidies and zoning laws. Free highway and road construction counted as a massive subsidy for sprawl, and zoning laws force sprawl in many c

by api 11y ago

You can also blame subsidies and zoning laws. Free highway and road construction counted as a massive subsidy for sprawl, and zoning laws force sprawl in many cases by outright prohibiting the location of any place of business where people live or any mixed-use development. Excessive sprawl is not a result of pure free market activity. The 'burbs are heavily subsidized, legally encouraged, and heavily regulated. My personal hypothesis is that the 'burbs served (intentionally or not) as a massive post-WWII work project to employ vast numbers of people in construction and real estate. (Not necessarily a free market fundamentalist ideologue, but this is one thing you can't blame on them.) I do agree with the article to a point though. America certainly has a nostalgic preoccupation with agrarian and rural life that has been used to sell the faux-ruralism pastiche of suburbia. It's a contributing factor in that it makes these ridiculous wastelands marketable.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
I agree with part of your post, but not all of it. Subsidies and zoning laws? Definitely. Suburban land was cheap, automobiles and fuel were cheap, hence Suburbia. The post-war US economy was booming, so you had families with higher-than-now purchasing power. Are people moving to cities because fuel and automobiles are more expensive compared to stagnant incomes? In some cases. It probably also helps that people value their time more (commute time/distance to services and social venues) and that there are more opportunities for work in cities than suburban and rural areas. I am curious to see what happens with remote work; I see a big push happening right now, at least in the tech sector. Not everything can be done remotely, but if the advantages are truly great enough, companies will compete against each other to hire quality remote workers (who can live anywhere its convenient for them).
- davidw 11y ago
  I think api's post is pretty accurate. This book has a lot more detail: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0078XGJXO/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0078XGJXO&linkCode=as2&tag=dedasys-20&linkId=2I3Z3BRMFGIPRBKX http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0078XGJXO/ref=as_li_tl?ie=...
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    I wish Hacker News would strip out affiliate codes.
    - davidw 11y ago
      We're capitalists here, mostly, so people don't mind. People who are just here to spam get turfed out pretty quickly. I don't recommend stuff that I don't think is pertinent to a conversation.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > We're capitalists here, mostly, so people don't mind. I have never thought [citation required] was more necessary than with this comment. We're technology professionals or enthusiasts primarily here.
        davidw 11y ago
        I didn't mean capitalists in terms of a job - I'm a tech guy too - but in terms of being ok with capitalism and making money.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > but in terms of being ok with capitalism and making money. That's exactly what I mean as well. I'm a socialist looking to replace jobs with cheap renewable energy, software, and robotics automation. Definitely not a capitalist. To each their own.
        davidw 11y ago
        If you prefer, you can think of the referral link as a way to redistribute some wealth from billionaire Jeff Bezos to not at all bad off, but certainly not even millionaire davidw.
        ssalazar 11y ago
- Semiapies 11y ago
  I look forward to this industry realizing everything doesn't have to happen in SF.
  - api 11y ago
    Network effects are powerful. Silicon Valley largely runs (today) on monetizing network effects, and network effects are also why Silicon Valley is all concentrated in the Bay Area. The primary factor is concentration of capital: it is exponentially easier to raise money in the Bay. The second is concentration of talent and peers -- early customers, beta testers, development partners. The Internet was supposed to make place less relevant, but as far as I can tell it's had a paradoxically opposite effect. When I was younger, I didn't have such a strong sense that you must be in one of maybe ten urban areas (but preferably SF) to do anything. Today it feels a bit like things happen in one of maybe ten cities, and everywhere else doesn't exist. Americans have always joked about the "flyover country," but I've distinctly noticed a massive increase in this effect since circa 2000.
    - marssaxman 11y ago
      I've noticed the same thing, but interpreted it as an effect of political alienation during the Bush years. The post-9/11 freakout and series of military misadventures left me feeling like there is really no such thing as America; the America I live in consists of its high-density coastal cities and nothing more, all the rest being driven by a foreign culture I don't like or belong to.
    - cyco 11y ago
      Really? I've seen the opposite. The downtowns of places like Indianpolis, Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. were underinvested wastelands not too long ago. Now a lot of young people want to live in these places. Not to mention the hipster paradises of Portland, Austin, etc. SF, Seattle, NYC, DC, Boston, etc., are still the major magnets, but "hip" urban living isn't as confined to the coasts as it used to be IMO.
      - 11y ago
Semiapies 11y ago
This concurs with the arguments a very liberal city planner once convinced me with. His preference for a solution, of course, was different government pressure on where people live and work, rather than my preference of less pressure, but he was convincing on the nature of the problem.
acveilleux 11y ago
Also as a way to racially and economically segregate the population. Office park connect to residential suburbs where little Johnny and Lisa can get good schools and other white upper middle-class friends to play with.

by api 11y ago

toomuchtodo 11y ago

I agree with part of your post, but not all of it. Subsidies and zoning laws? Definitely. Suburban land was cheap, automobiles and fuel were cheap, hence Suburbia. The post-war US economy was booming, so you had families with higher-than-now purchasing power. Are people moving to cities because fuel and automobiles are more expensive compared to stagnant incomes? In some cases. It probably also helps that people value their time more (commute time/distance to services and social venues) and that there are more opportunities for work in cities than suburban and rural areas. I am curious to see what happens with remote work; I see a big push happening right now, at least in the tech sector. Not everything can be done remotely, but if the advantages are truly great enough, companies will compete against each other to hire quality remote workers (who can live anywhere its convenient for them).

davidw 11y ago
I think api's post is pretty accurate. This book has a lot more detail: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0078XGJXO/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0078XGJXO&linkCode=as2&tag=dedasys-20&linkId=2I3Z3BRMFGIPRBKX http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0078XGJXO/ref=as_li_tl?ie=...
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  I wish Hacker News would strip out affiliate codes.
  - davidw 11y ago
    We're capitalists here, mostly, so people don't mind. People who are just here to spam get turfed out pretty quickly. I don't recommend stuff that I don't think is pertinent to a conversation.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      > We're capitalists here, mostly, so people don't mind. I have never thought [citation required] was more necessary than with this comment. We're technology professionals or enthusiasts primarily here.
      - davidw 11y ago
        I didn't mean capitalists in terms of a job - I'm a tech guy too - but in terms of being ok with capitalism and making money.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > but in terms of being ok with capitalism and making money. That's exactly what I mean as well. I'm a socialist looking to replace jobs with cheap renewable energy, software, and robotics automation. Definitely not a capitalist. To each their own.
        davidw 11y ago
        If you prefer, you can think of the referral link as a way to redistribute some wealth from billionaire Jeff Bezos to not at all bad off, but certainly not even millionaire davidw.
      - ssalazar 11y ago
Semiapies 11y ago
I look forward to this industry realizing everything doesn't have to happen in SF.
- api 11y ago
  Network effects are powerful. Silicon Valley largely runs (today) on monetizing network effects, and network effects are also why Silicon Valley is all concentrated in the Bay Area. The primary factor is concentration of capital: it is exponentially easier to raise money in the Bay. The second is concentration of talent and peers -- early customers, beta testers, development partners. The Internet was supposed to make place less relevant, but as far as I can tell it's had a paradoxically opposite effect. When I was younger, I didn't have such a strong sense that you must be in one of maybe ten urban areas (but preferably SF) to do anything. Today it feels a bit like things happen in one of maybe ten cities, and everywhere else doesn't exist. Americans have always joked about the "flyover country," but I've distinctly noticed a massive increase in this effect since circa 2000.
  - marssaxman 11y ago
    I've noticed the same thing, but interpreted it as an effect of political alienation during the Bush years. The post-9/11 freakout and series of military misadventures left me feeling like there is really no such thing as America; the America I live in consists of its high-density coastal cities and nothing more, all the rest being driven by a foreign culture I don't like or belong to.
  - cyco 11y ago
    Really? I've seen the opposite. The downtowns of places like Indianpolis, Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. were underinvested wastelands not too long ago. Now a lot of young people want to live in these places. Not to mention the hipster paradises of Portland, Austin, etc. SF, Seattle, NYC, DC, Boston, etc., are still the major magnets, but "hip" urban living isn't as confined to the coasts as it used to be IMO.
    - 11y ago

Semiapies 11y ago

This concurs with the arguments a very liberal city planner once convinced me with. His preference for a solution, of course, was different government pressure on where people live and work, rather than my preference of less pressure, but he was convincing on the nature of the problem.

acveilleux 11y ago

Also as a way to racially and economically segregate the population. Office park connect to residential suburbs where little Johnny and Lisa can get good schools and other white upper middle-class friends to play with.