25 ms·

Imagine all the countless hour of pointless human labor that could be saved if we simply abolished patents. How many man hours has been wasted in these thousand

by audunw 11y ago

Imagine all the countless hour of pointless human labor that could be saved if we simply abolished patents. How many man hours has been wasted in these thousands of cases? And for what? How is patenting combination of spices going to increase innovation? But then again I suppose this "solves" the problem that there's not enough productive work to go around. In a 100 years perhaps all human endeavor will be about fighting over imaginary monopolies.

ateevchopra 11y ago
`How is patenting combination of spices going to increase innovation` Sometimes its not about innovation. Many companies buy patents and make high priced drugs. These drugs can be made available to the poor for very less price, but patents like these block local makers from doing so. Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/sunday-times/all-that-matters/Changes-to-Indias-patent-law-will-impact-prices-of-life-saving-drugs/articleshow/32519848.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/sunday-times/all-tha...
- primroot 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreening https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreening
primroot 11y ago
"Hitherto [1848] it is questionable if all the mechanical inventions yet made have lightened the day's toil of any human being. ... Only when, in addition to just institutions, the increase of mankind shall be under the deliberate guidance of judicious foresight, can the conquests made from the powers of nature by the intellect and energy of scientific discoverers become the common property of the species, and the means of improving and elevating the universal lot." Wrote J.S. Mill. I do not see us getting anywhere near this state of society, certainly not as long we "need" jobs.
x5n1 11y ago
Patents and copyright are essentially regulatory capture, they didn't start out that way... but every time they start asking for more and more rights for longer periods of time or argue for rights of corporations rather than individuals who produced the works, they are in the territory of regulatory capture and rent seeking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture and rent seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
golergka 11y ago
> abolished patents > How is patenting combination of spices going to increase innovation? I'm sorry, but you seem to have jumped from "patents" to "patenting combinations of spices" here. I don't think that you did this intentionally, but you replaced the topic in between; first, you formulate your thesis as "we should abolishing patents", and later, you seem to be proving it, but you really only prove a different thesis, "we should abolish patenting combination of spices". Don't you see the difference between these two?
- astazangasta 11y ago
  Err, this is called exemplification. It is a common rhetorical device. Really this could have done with any patent, which all need to go.
  - golergka 11y ago
    With any? Really?
deskamess 11y ago
For the longest time I have been wondering when a pharma would try to patent Neem for tooth/other medicinal uses. Little did I know that the patent application had already happened. I am glad such a repository exists to handle prior art for Indian medicines. I am worried about African/other poor countries that are unable to protect their indigenous medicinal use cases since they may lack the repository. Perhaps they can piggy back on the Indian effort or may be a worthy premise for a socially oriented startup with some funding from the big and/or little names in VC.
icebraining 11y ago
In a 100 years perhaps all human endeavor will be about fighting over imaginary monopolies. On that note: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2834 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2834 (it's a textual story, not a comic)
- angersock 11y ago
  It's comics like this that remind me just how much better SMBC is than, say, XKCD. It's got teeth. Munroe's stuff is basically the stick figure equivalent of TED talks--people who aren't that clever or smart read them to tell other not that clever and smart people how clever and smart they are because they read XKCD.
monochromatic 11y ago
> Imagine all the countless hour of pointless human labor that could be saved if we simply abolished patents. For example, all the time that pharmaceutical companies "waste" developing new drugs would be saved!
- sitkack 11y ago
  Maybe drugs shouldn't be "invented" by pharmaceutical companies? Is a company always the best organizational structure?
  - monochromatic 11y ago
    Perhaps not, but I'm not aware of an individual developing a new drug within the last N years, for some large value of N.
    - sitkack 11y ago
      Developing/discovering, most likely yes. Clinical trials, not possible. I said nothing of individuals, that isn't the dichotomy. All groups are not companies.
6502nerdface 11y ago
These spice mixtures sound an awful lot like recipes, rather than inventions, and recipes should already be unpatentable (in the US, anyway). I suppose there must be some technical, legal distinction between a recipe and an invention, which Colgate has latched onto here.
benkuykendall 11y ago
The textbook pro-patent argument is that giving out a short-term monopoly increases the benefits of R&D. A company would have less to gain from developing a new product if anyone could then produce it. If you want to abolish patents, you need to create a new system by which companies can benefit from their innovation.
- math 11y ago
  Most of the time, I don't think you do. I think innovation is still going to happen anyway. For example, I think companies would have still made mobile phones and furthermore I think they would be better without patents because one maker wouldn't be arbitrarily restricted from using some idea-that-was-going-to-happen-anyway-because-the-time-was-right because another patented it. What is lost in monopolies is more than made up for in reduced overhead and ability to move quicker and come up with superior solutions because you are allowed to build on more ideas than you otherwise would. In some instances perhaps patents do act to expedite innovation (instances where time/cost to market is very high), but I think these are in the minority and that there is probably a better legal / tax / grant / political solution to that than granting of monopolies on ideas.
  - smeyer 11y ago
    What about pharmaceuticals? These are a major arena of patents, where the R&D is measured in the billions of dollars per drug with massive profit margins on successful drugs and tiny profit margins on generics once the patents have expired. What do you think the best alternative is to patents? Government-sponsored research (which already contributes a lot to pharmaceuticals by paying for low level research) or something else?
    - sitkack 11y ago
      You were just presented with a case where nothing was invented, a drug was simply looked up in a commonly known ancient text. Colgate owes India damages.
      - 11y ago
ChuckMcM 11y ago
The nice thing about patents is that in finite time they go public domain (unlike copyright). It is an oft overlooked value.
Abraln 11y ago
People need to realize that intellectual-property not a right, it is an exception to the right of freedom of speech. Too many people in power seem to have forgotten/chosen to ignore that.

by audunw 11y ago

ateevchopra 11y ago

`How is patenting combination of spices going to increase innovation` Sometimes its not about innovation. Many companies buy patents and make high priced drugs. These drugs can be made available to the poor for very less price, but patents like these block local makers from doing so. Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/sunday-times/all-that-matters/Changes-to-Indias-patent-law-will-impact-prices-of-life-saving-drugs/articleshow/32519848.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/sunday-times/all-tha...

primroot 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreening https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreening

primroot 11y ago

"Hitherto [1848] it is questionable if all the mechanical inventions yet made have lightened the day's toil of any human being. ... Only when, in addition to just institutions, the increase of mankind shall be under the deliberate guidance of judicious foresight, can the conquests made from the powers of nature by the intellect and energy of scientific discoverers become the common property of the species, and the means of improving and elevating the universal lot." Wrote J.S. Mill. I do not see us getting anywhere near this state of society, certainly not as long we "need" jobs.

x5n1 11y ago

Patents and copyright are essentially regulatory capture, they didn't start out that way... but every time they start asking for more and more rights for longer periods of time or argue for rights of corporations rather than individuals who produced the works, they are in the territory of regulatory capture and rent seeking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture and rent seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

golergka 11y ago

> abolished patents > How is patenting combination of spices going to increase innovation? I'm sorry, but you seem to have jumped from "patents" to "patenting combinations of spices" here. I don't think that you did this intentionally, but you replaced the topic in between; first, you formulate your thesis as "we should abolishing patents", and later, you seem to be proving it, but you really only prove a different thesis, "we should abolish patenting combination of spices". Don't you see the difference between these two?

astazangasta 11y ago
Err, this is called exemplification. It is a common rhetorical device. Really this could have done with any patent, which all need to go.
- golergka 11y ago
  With any? Really?

deskamess 11y ago

For the longest time I have been wondering when a pharma would try to patent Neem for tooth/other medicinal uses. Little did I know that the patent application had already happened. I am glad such a repository exists to handle prior art for Indian medicines. I am worried about African/other poor countries that are unable to protect their indigenous medicinal use cases since they may lack the repository. Perhaps they can piggy back on the Indian effort or may be a worthy premise for a socially oriented startup with some funding from the big and/or little names in VC.

icebraining 11y ago

In a 100 years perhaps all human endeavor will be about fighting over imaginary monopolies. On that note: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2834 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2834 (it's a textual story, not a comic)

angersock 11y ago
It's comics like this that remind me just how much better SMBC is than, say, XKCD. It's got teeth. Munroe's stuff is basically the stick figure equivalent of TED talks--people who aren't that clever or smart read them to tell other not that clever and smart people how clever and smart they are because they read XKCD.

monochromatic 11y ago

> Imagine all the countless hour of pointless human labor that could be saved if we simply abolished patents. For example, all the time that pharmaceutical companies "waste" developing new drugs would be saved!

sitkack 11y ago
Maybe drugs shouldn't be "invented" by pharmaceutical companies? Is a company always the best organizational structure?
- monochromatic 11y ago
  Perhaps not, but I'm not aware of an individual developing a new drug within the last N years, for some large value of N.
  - sitkack 11y ago
    Developing/discovering, most likely yes. Clinical trials, not possible. I said nothing of individuals, that isn't the dichotomy. All groups are not companies.

6502nerdface 11y ago

These spice mixtures sound an awful lot like recipes, rather than inventions, and recipes should already be unpatentable (in the US, anyway). I suppose there must be some technical, legal distinction between a recipe and an invention, which Colgate has latched onto here.

benkuykendall 11y ago

The textbook pro-patent argument is that giving out a short-term monopoly increases the benefits of R&D. A company would have less to gain from developing a new product if anyone could then produce it. If you want to abolish patents, you need to create a new system by which companies can benefit from their innovation.

math 11y ago
Most of the time, I don't think you do. I think innovation is still going to happen anyway. For example, I think companies would have still made mobile phones and furthermore I think they would be better without patents because one maker wouldn't be arbitrarily restricted from using some idea-that-was-going-to-happen-anyway-because-the-time-was-right because another patented it. What is lost in monopolies is more than made up for in reduced overhead and ability to move quicker and come up with superior solutions because you are allowed to build on more ideas than you otherwise would. In some instances perhaps patents do act to expedite innovation (instances where time/cost to market is very high), but I think these are in the minority and that there is probably a better legal / tax / grant / political solution to that than granting of monopolies on ideas.
- smeyer 11y ago
  What about pharmaceuticals? These are a major arena of patents, where the R&D is measured in the billions of dollars per drug with massive profit margins on successful drugs and tiny profit margins on generics once the patents have expired. What do you think the best alternative is to patents? Government-sponsored research (which already contributes a lot to pharmaceuticals by paying for low level research) or something else?
  - sitkack 11y ago
    You were just presented with a case where nothing was invented, a drug was simply looked up in a commonly known ancient text. Colgate owes India damages.
    - 11y ago

ChuckMcM 11y ago

The nice thing about patents is that in finite time they go public domain (unlike copyright). It is an oft overlooked value.

Abraln 11y ago

People need to realize that intellectual-property not a right, it is an exception to the right of freedom of speech. Too many people in power seem to have forgotten/chosen to ignore that.