6 ms·

In contrast to the Purism machines the Gluglug uses second-hand, 7-year old hardware.

by foodstances 11y ago

davexunit 11y ago
Because newer hardware is even more difficult to liberate.
ekianjo 11y ago
So what? Specs are not everything that counts.
- madez 11y ago
  I think it is a fair criticism. It correctly portraits the two options we have to spend our money on a new device: a) Very modern device and supporting the status quo or b) A slightly outdated device and supporting the market for devices that are more free
  - userbinator 11y ago
    I'll add "supporting reuse and reduction of e-waste" to the second option.
    - keithpeter 11y ago
      I'm typing this on an (unliberated) X60 which I use as a sort of netbook and which steadfastly refuses to go wrong! I'll keep it out of landfill as long as possible I think.
  - Sanddancer 11y ago
    I'd argue that this is far from slightly outdated. Starting with RAM, four gigabytes of RAM may work for a barebones programmer machine, but once you want to start doing any sort of media work, like editing photos, video, etc, you start running into that wall real quickly. Even software development work is going to cause you to run into limitations. As the processor doesn't have an IOMMU, any vms you want to run will be limited to slower, virtualized, graphics, and that expresscard slot on the side becomes a security concern (hello, evil maid). Additionally, it only supports outputting to vga, limiting your options in monitors, and making sharing content on a friend's tv a lot harder. So in short, its constraints in various areas really do shackle you in a lot of ways. Media creation, software creation, sharing, all suffer from the weaknesses of this machine.
    - rosser 11y ago
      Not everyone needs to do all of those things. In fact, I'd argue that very few people need to do all of them. So, yeah, it's a fraction of the machine the (not maxed out) 13" rMBP I'm typing at right now is. So? If "freedom" (as the term is used by the FSF and folks of similar ideologies) is your priority, you make some compromises. If not, some would argue, that's a compromise you're making, right there. The x200 also unofficially supports 8GB of system RAM. Since the machine is under no warranty coverage whatsoever, running an unsupported configuration will, at worst, cost you the price of a couple of 4GB SO-DIMMs or return shipping on an RMA. Please don't judge a thing that doesn't satisfy your priorities as being somehow objectively "bad" or "wrong". It just doesn't meet your needs. Go find a machine that does, then, and let the people whose needs and priorities are met by a Gluglug x200 satisfy theirs with this.
      - Sanddancer 11y ago
        So I'm not allowed to discuss what these people are giving up in the name of "freedom"? That the fact that this is a refurbished machine from seven years ago shouldn't be brought up? That functionality was removed in order to, through some bizarre twist of logic, make the machine "more free"? Given that this is a machine that is built in the name of ideology, I would argue that questioning aspects of that ideology, and what is demanded to acheive their idea of purity, is more than fair game.
        rosser 11y ago
        You're perfectly free to discuss it. Your posts read more like telling people they're wrong in finding these machines suitable for their purposes than just discussing the tradeoffs they're making. Even this comment, with clearly un-biased turns of phrase like "bizarre twist of logic" and "their idea of purity" conveys a conviction on your part that these people aren't merely wrong, but deluded. Tone down your dismissal of other people's needs and use-cases, and we can have a discussion. Remember, RMS uses a Libreboot-based x60, which is even less machine than the x200 under discussion here. Are you going to tell him he's wrong, too?
- tracker1 11y ago
  I would think that power vs battery life would be pretty high on the list of priorities for technically inclined users. I current-gen core i3 (like the 5010U) packs quite a bit of performance vs. the power it requires. For me, first and foremost are the parts that I interact with... namely the screen, keyboard and mouse. TBH, I have yet to try a laptop keyboard I like... I use a model-m style keyboard from Unicomp (103-key US), and all laptops and most other keyboards feel like sponges. I've yet to use a touchpad that's nearly as good as a macbook pro's, and their keyboard is better than most. The rMBP screen is pretty nice too. That said, there's certainly a price tag attached. As to the software, I could care less mostly. I survive in windows, linux and osx on a daily basis, if I have a command prompt (bash) and most of the same tooling available (thankful for git extensions for windows bringing all the gfw/git/bash/ssh tools with it), I'm pretty happy. I have also started using an natural scrolling everywhere. All of that said, it's nice to see open options that start under $1k in price, even if slightly older hardware. I'm not sure how good/easy Trisquel is to use, I know it's based with dpkg, but without apt/aptitude on top of it, may be difficult for most people to use in practice (I couldn't find reference to this, just a cursory look).
  - madez 11y ago
    I know [Trisquel]'s based with dpkg, but without apt/aptitude on top of it Trisquel is virtually a deblobbed and cleaned Ubuntu, so it does use apt/aptitude.
    - tracker1 11y ago
      Thanks... I looked through bits of their FAQ, and a few other places. The wikipedia article referenced only dpkg, not apt/aptitude. Though, pragmatically I load some not entirely free software on my machines (chrome proper, flash, and a few other things namely). I still think it's cool to have open options... I've tended towards buying routers/phones that I can replace the software, even if I don't start off that route because I like having supported, updateable options past the production date. I've been less concerned on the desktop/laptop front, but am actually getting more so.. given the lock-down methods that have been in the pipeline, I don't want to be stuck with the MFG OS... I've been looking into getting a couple C2D macbooks, so I can load linux on them to play around with... I'm relatively happy with my current rMBP, but the changes apple has made to the OS irk me more with each release.
technomancy 11y ago
I've been using my X200 since I got it. Not only has it survived multiple falls from a 1.8m standing desk, it's still perfectly serviceable for everything I've needed it for. Most Thinkpads released since then are markedly worse, plagued with low-resolution or glossy screens. They've also removed the LED indicator that tells you whether the AC adapter is plugged in and when the battery level is critical. tl;dr: sure there are newer machines with better specs, but nothing better in ways that actually matter to me.
- mark_l_watson 11y ago
  I am thinking of buying a Gluglug, mostly as a political statement. Is it easy to replace the battery, memory, disk, etc. on the X200? BTW, I appreciate the work you did in the Clojure community!
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - acid__ 11y ago
    I don't know about the X200 specifically but older ThinkPads tend to be really good with that. I have an X220 and it is easily the most serviceable laptop I have ever owned. It was super easy to upgrade the memory and add an extra disk. The battery is replaceable without opening the machine up and so it's easy to swap batteries if you use your machine for very extended periods of time.
    - technomancy 11y ago
      Yes, that's another reason I've avoided upgrading--I really appreciate the ability to swap the battery out in the middle of a long flight without a screwdriver. Basically everything in the X200 is user-serviceable; you can even replace the keyboard without taking it in, provided you can find the parts you need. The only thing I'd be worried about is being able to find new batteries for it; worth looking into before you pull the trigger.

In contrast to the Purism machines the Gluglug uses second-hand, 7-year old hardware.

davexunit 11y ago

Because newer hardware is even more difficult to liberate.

ekianjo 11y ago

So what? Specs are not everything that counts.

madez 11y ago
I think it is a fair criticism. It correctly portraits the two options we have to spend our money on a new device: a) Very modern device and supporting the status quo or b) A slightly outdated device and supporting the market for devices that are more free
- userbinator 11y ago
  I'll add "supporting reuse and reduction of e-waste" to the second option.
  - keithpeter 11y ago
    I'm typing this on an (unliberated) X60 which I use as a sort of netbook and which steadfastly refuses to go wrong! I'll keep it out of landfill as long as possible I think.
- Sanddancer 11y ago
  I'd argue that this is far from slightly outdated. Starting with RAM, four gigabytes of RAM may work for a barebones programmer machine, but once you want to start doing any sort of media work, like editing photos, video, etc, you start running into that wall real quickly. Even software development work is going to cause you to run into limitations. As the processor doesn't have an IOMMU, any vms you want to run will be limited to slower, virtualized, graphics, and that expresscard slot on the side becomes a security concern (hello, evil maid). Additionally, it only supports outputting to vga, limiting your options in monitors, and making sharing content on a friend's tv a lot harder. So in short, its constraints in various areas really do shackle you in a lot of ways. Media creation, software creation, sharing, all suffer from the weaknesses of this machine.
  - rosser 11y ago
    Not everyone needs to do all of those things. In fact, I'd argue that very few people need to do all of them. So, yeah, it's a fraction of the machine the (not maxed out) 13" rMBP I'm typing at right now is. So? If "freedom" (as the term is used by the FSF and folks of similar ideologies) is your priority, you make some compromises. If not, some would argue, that's a compromise you're making, right there. The x200 also unofficially supports 8GB of system RAM. Since the machine is under no warranty coverage whatsoever, running an unsupported configuration will, at worst, cost you the price of a couple of 4GB SO-DIMMs or return shipping on an RMA. Please don't judge a thing that doesn't satisfy your priorities as being somehow objectively "bad" or "wrong". It just doesn't meet your needs. Go find a machine that does, then, and let the people whose needs and priorities are met by a Gluglug x200 satisfy theirs with this.
    - Sanddancer 11y ago
      So I'm not allowed to discuss what these people are giving up in the name of "freedom"? That the fact that this is a refurbished machine from seven years ago shouldn't be brought up? That functionality was removed in order to, through some bizarre twist of logic, make the machine "more free"? Given that this is a machine that is built in the name of ideology, I would argue that questioning aspects of that ideology, and what is demanded to acheive their idea of purity, is more than fair game.
      - rosser 11y ago
        You're perfectly free to discuss it. Your posts read more like telling people they're wrong in finding these machines suitable for their purposes than just discussing the tradeoffs they're making. Even this comment, with clearly un-biased turns of phrase like "bizarre twist of logic" and "their idea of purity" conveys a conviction on your part that these people aren't merely wrong, but deluded. Tone down your dismissal of other people's needs and use-cases, and we can have a discussion. Remember, RMS uses a Libreboot-based x60, which is even less machine than the x200 under discussion here. Are you going to tell him he's wrong, too?
tracker1 11y ago
I would think that power vs battery life would be pretty high on the list of priorities for technically inclined users. I current-gen core i3 (like the 5010U) packs quite a bit of performance vs. the power it requires. For me, first and foremost are the parts that I interact with... namely the screen, keyboard and mouse. TBH, I have yet to try a laptop keyboard I like... I use a model-m style keyboard from Unicomp (103-key US), and all laptops and most other keyboards feel like sponges. I've yet to use a touchpad that's nearly as good as a macbook pro's, and their keyboard is better than most. The rMBP screen is pretty nice too. That said, there's certainly a price tag attached. As to the software, I could care less mostly. I survive in windows, linux and osx on a daily basis, if I have a command prompt (bash) and most of the same tooling available (thankful for git extensions for windows bringing all the gfw/git/bash/ssh tools with it), I'm pretty happy. I have also started using an natural scrolling everywhere. All of that said, it's nice to see open options that start under $1k in price, even if slightly older hardware. I'm not sure how good/easy Trisquel is to use, I know it's based with dpkg, but without apt/aptitude on top of it, may be difficult for most people to use in practice (I couldn't find reference to this, just a cursory look).
- madez 11y ago
  I know [Trisquel]'s based with dpkg, but without apt/aptitude on top of it Trisquel is virtually a deblobbed and cleaned Ubuntu, so it does use apt/aptitude.
  - tracker1 11y ago
    Thanks... I looked through bits of their FAQ, and a few other places. The wikipedia article referenced only dpkg, not apt/aptitude. Though, pragmatically I load some not entirely free software on my machines (chrome proper, flash, and a few other things namely). I still think it's cool to have open options... I've tended towards buying routers/phones that I can replace the software, even if I don't start off that route because I like having supported, updateable options past the production date. I've been less concerned on the desktop/laptop front, but am actually getting more so.. given the lock-down methods that have been in the pipeline, I don't want to be stuck with the MFG OS... I've been looking into getting a couple C2D macbooks, so I can load linux on them to play around with... I'm relatively happy with my current rMBP, but the changes apple has made to the OS irk me more with each release.

technomancy 11y ago

I've been using my X200 since I got it. Not only has it survived multiple falls from a 1.8m standing desk, it's still perfectly serviceable for everything I've needed it for. Most Thinkpads released since then are markedly worse, plagued with low-resolution or glossy screens. They've also removed the LED indicator that tells you whether the AC adapter is plugged in and when the battery level is critical. tl;dr: sure there are newer machines with better specs, but nothing better in ways that actually matter to me.

mark_l_watson 11y ago
I am thinking of buying a Gluglug, mostly as a political statement. Is it easy to replace the battery, memory, disk, etc. on the X200? BTW, I appreciate the work you did in the Clojure community!
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- acid__ 11y ago
  I don't know about the X200 specifically but older ThinkPads tend to be really good with that. I have an X220 and it is easily the most serviceable laptop I have ever owned. It was super easy to upgrade the memory and add an extra disk. The battery is replaceable without opening the machine up and so it's easy to swap batteries if you use your machine for very extended periods of time.
  - technomancy 11y ago
    Yes, that's another reason I've avoided upgrading--I really appreciate the ability to swap the battery out in the middle of a long flight without a screwdriver. Basically everything in the X200 is user-serviceable; you can even replace the keyboard without taking it in, provided you can find the parts you need. The only thing I'd be worried about is being able to find new batteries for it; worth looking into before you pull the trigger.