3 ms·

Gotcha, I see what you mean. (Didn't intend to put words in your mouth) My counterpoint is that reddit is the most popular site for just about any group to con

by rory096 11y ago

Gotcha, I see what you mean. (Didn't intend to put words in your mouth) My counterpoint is that reddit is the most popular site for just about any group to congregate on the internet. If you're a niche site trying to keep out the riff-raff your advice is definitely the way to go. But I'd argue that reddit is pretty close to a cross-section of people on the internet- and that's a desirable goal in itself. You're right that banning racist subs would discourage racists from joining the conversation generally. (Though there's an argument to be made that it would also mean leakage into the rest of reddit.) But is less-racist-than-society necessarily better than just society? You gain not having to read assholes saying dumb things and just generally being civilized. But if those people are stuck in their isolated internet cesspools, the echo chamber could just encourage them to get worse and worse. If they're on reddit, they might have an epiphany after a conversation with someone they later realize is of another race, or they might get called out and downvoted when they say something inappropriate in a non-hate sub and realize the limits of reasonable behavior, or any number of other things. It's been a while since I've read any literature on the subject, but I'd be surprised if the best way to cure a racist wasn't to foster interactions with both non-racists and members of another race.

slg 11y ago
I think the difference between this content being on a niche site and being on Reddit is the discoverability. If all this hate was confined to Stormfront, you would have to go to Stormfront to see it. No one would do that unless they already have racist leaning beliefs. The racism on Reddit is just mixed in with all the other content. Users can find it in places like the previously mentioned Jesse Jackson AMA. That serves as an opportunity for recruitment. People can be pulled into a world of concentrated racism on Reddit without even noticing. I think that is basically what happened with FatPeopleHate. I don't think all of the 150k+ users were bad people, they just were pulled into a world of hate without realizing how damaging it could be.
- rory096 11y ago
  This is a great point. I've been thinking about the problem exogenously- as a group of racists (/etc.) out there that we as the internet have to deal with. (People are still getting convinced of racism?) It definitely becomes a balancing act, then, of whether the flow is more towards normalizing radicals or radicalizing normals. I'd hope it's more the former, and actually spez's NFWC category might help with that- since you'd have to manually opt-in to the cesspit, sort of like turning on HN's showdead. And maybe because it's easier to stumble on it's easier to get out- once someone's hooked into Stormfront they're probably irretrievable; every aspect of their forum experience will be framed by that fact. Whereas on reddit they might have 10 cat subreddits diluting that content, it's just a matter of getting them to click that "unsubscribe" button once.
- bluecalm 11y ago
  I was FPH reader and enjoyed the sub a lot. That being said I can definitely see how it went too far and I don't mind a policy which doesn't allow subs like that. I think what constituted "too far" in their case was posting pictures without face removed of normal people (that is not public figures or at least those without significant presence on the internet). I can definitely get behind the rules which don't allow for that. I do however feel the sub wasn't motivated by hate. It was more of ranting/reactionary sub against fat-acceptance movement and a trend to treat obesity as a normal thing. A lot of people me included think this is harmful. I think feeding your child Coke and McDonalds every day constitutes child abuse and I think calling social workers on parents who have 200lbs kids is justified and isn't even close to harassment. I think you should be forced to buy 2 plane tickets if you can't fit in one seat etc. etc. I am as anti-bullying as people get and I am a bit of "social justice warrior" at heart but I was FPH subscriber as it was one place where what I consider insanity was called out regularly. It was also great motivational sub for me as I am a bit overweight and many people on FPH testified they feel motivational influence as well (which btw I get now on r/fatlogic which is fantastic sub which is more careful about bullying and way more too my taste). I think many of those 150K+ subscribers were like me. I cringed seeing occasional abusive post but the vibe I got from the place wasn't of one motivated by hate at all. Btw I think racism is a problem and I would welcome rules to ban it. I like free discourse but racism is too much (same for misogyny although that label is applied too liberally these days). I think people are responsible for their views and spreading some views makes the world a worst place. It's a hard thing to balance but racism is established enough as harmful that it should be treated similarly to Nazism - that is banned form public discourse.

by rory096 11y ago

slg 11y ago

I think the difference between this content being on a niche site and being on Reddit is the discoverability. If all this hate was confined to Stormfront, you would have to go to Stormfront to see it. No one would do that unless they already have racist leaning beliefs. The racism on Reddit is just mixed in with all the other content. Users can find it in places like the previously mentioned Jesse Jackson AMA. That serves as an opportunity for recruitment. People can be pulled into a world of concentrated racism on Reddit without even noticing. I think that is basically what happened with FatPeopleHate. I don't think all of the 150k+ users were bad people, they just were pulled into a world of hate without realizing how damaging it could be.

rory096 11y ago
This is a great point. I've been thinking about the problem exogenously- as a group of racists (/etc.) out there that we as the internet have to deal with. (People are still getting convinced of racism?) It definitely becomes a balancing act, then, of whether the flow is more towards normalizing radicals or radicalizing normals. I'd hope it's more the former, and actually spez's NFWC category might help with that- since you'd have to manually opt-in to the cesspit, sort of like turning on HN's showdead. And maybe because it's easier to stumble on it's easier to get out- once someone's hooked into Stormfront they're probably irretrievable; every aspect of their forum experience will be framed by that fact. Whereas on reddit they might have 10 cat subreddits diluting that content, it's just a matter of getting them to click that "unsubscribe" button once.
bluecalm 11y ago
I was FPH reader and enjoyed the sub a lot. That being said I can definitely see how it went too far and I don't mind a policy which doesn't allow subs like that. I think what constituted "too far" in their case was posting pictures without face removed of normal people (that is not public figures or at least those without significant presence on the internet). I can definitely get behind the rules which don't allow for that. I do however feel the sub wasn't motivated by hate. It was more of ranting/reactionary sub against fat-acceptance movement and a trend to treat obesity as a normal thing. A lot of people me included think this is harmful. I think feeding your child Coke and McDonalds every day constitutes child abuse and I think calling social workers on parents who have 200lbs kids is justified and isn't even close to harassment. I think you should be forced to buy 2 plane tickets if you can't fit in one seat etc. etc. I am as anti-bullying as people get and I am a bit of "social justice warrior" at heart but I was FPH subscriber as it was one place where what I consider insanity was called out regularly. It was also great motivational sub for me as I am a bit overweight and many people on FPH testified they feel motivational influence as well (which btw I get now on r/fatlogic which is fantastic sub which is more careful about bullying and way more too my taste). I think many of those 150K+ subscribers were like me. I cringed seeing occasional abusive post but the vibe I got from the place wasn't of one motivated by hate at all. Btw I think racism is a problem and I would welcome rules to ban it. I like free discourse but racism is too much (same for misogyny although that label is applied too liberally these days). I think people are responsible for their views and spreading some views makes the world a worst place. It's a hard thing to balance but racism is established enough as harmful that it should be treated similarly to Nazism - that is banned form public discourse.