5 ms·

So you argue that reddit should exclude people, rather than content? What if a user is found being racist on another site, should they be banned from reddit?

by rory096 11y ago

slg 11y ago
That is a step beyond anything I have said. I am just pointing out that we shouldn't say "Coontown is fine because they keep to themselves." The fact is that people are attracted to Reddit based on content. You don't need to ban any people if you change the content to attract (and repel) different people. Reddit is now the most popular site on the Internet for racists to congregate. I think that is a problem for the whole site. Making the site less accommodating to racists would seem to be a good first step in addressing that issue. Reddit doesn't appear willing to do that.
- leereeves 11y ago
  I don't know who said this, but I heard it somewhere: "If you support free speech, you can count on being accused of supporting the worst things anyone can say."
  - slg 11y ago
    I don't think that is relevant here. We already establish that Reddit is going to be stricter than the law. Right now we are only debating how much stricter than the law it should be.
    - leereeves 11y ago
      I'm not sure we've established that. If reddit is stricter than the law in banning cyber harassment and some non-consensual photographs, they aren't much stricter. There are laws against those things in California.
      - slg 11y ago
        That is only a subset of the banned content. Almost none of the below stuff is illegal and was alos listed in the post's banned list. -Spam -Publication of someone’s private and confidential information -Anything that incites harm or violence against an individual or group of people (it's ok to say "I don't like this group of people." It's not ok to say, "I'm going to kill this group of people.") -Anything that harasses, bullies, or abuses[2] an individual or group of people (these behaviors intimidate others into silence) -Sexually suggestive content featuring minors
        leereeves 11y ago
        All of those (except spam) are slightly wider nets centered on things that are illegal. See, for example CA penal code sections 422, 653m, and 653.2.
- rory096 11y ago
  Gotcha, I see what you mean. (Didn't intend to put words in your mouth) My counterpoint is that reddit is the most popular site for just about any group to congregate on the internet. If you're a niche site trying to keep out the riff-raff your advice is definitely the way to go. But I'd argue that reddit is pretty close to a cross-section of people on the internet- and that's a desirable goal in itself. You're right that banning racist subs would discourage racists from joining the conversation generally. (Though there's an argument to be made that it would also mean leakage into the rest of reddit.) But is less-racist-than-society necessarily better than just society? You gain not having to read assholes saying dumb things and just generally being civilized. But if those people are stuck in their isolated internet cesspools, the echo chamber could just encourage them to get worse and worse. If they're on reddit, they might have an epiphany after a conversation with someone they later realize is of another race, or they might get called out and downvoted when they say something inappropriate in a non-hate sub and realize the limits of reasonable behavior, or any number of other things. It's been a while since I've read any literature on the subject, but I'd be surprised if the best way to cure a racist wasn't to foster interactions with both non-racists and members of another race.
  - slg 11y ago
    I think the difference between this content being on a niche site and being on Reddit is the discoverability. If all this hate was confined to Stormfront, you would have to go to Stormfront to see it. No one would do that unless they already have racist leaning beliefs. The racism on Reddit is just mixed in with all the other content. Users can find it in places like the previously mentioned Jesse Jackson AMA. That serves as an opportunity for recruitment. People can be pulled into a world of concentrated racism on Reddit without even noticing. I think that is basically what happened with FatPeopleHate. I don't think all of the 150k+ users were bad people, they just were pulled into a world of hate without realizing how damaging it could be.
    - rory096 11y ago
      This is a great point. I've been thinking about the problem exogenously- as a group of racists (/etc.) out there that we as the internet have to deal with. (People are still getting convinced of racism?) It definitely becomes a balancing act, then, of whether the flow is more towards normalizing radicals or radicalizing normals. I'd hope it's more the former, and actually spez's NFWC category might help with that- since you'd have to manually opt-in to the cesspit, sort of like turning on HN's showdead. And maybe because it's easier to stumble on it's easier to get out- once someone's hooked into Stormfront they're probably irretrievable; every aspect of their forum experience will be framed by that fact. Whereas on reddit they might have 10 cat subreddits diluting that content, it's just a matter of getting them to click that "unsubscribe" button once.

So you argue that reddit should exclude people, rather than content? What if a user is found being racist on another site, should they be banned from reddit?

by rory096 11y ago

So you argue that reddit should exclude people, rather than content? What if a user is found being racist on another site, should they be banned from reddit?

slg 11y ago

That is a step beyond anything I have said. I am just pointing out that we shouldn't say "Coontown is fine because they keep to themselves." The fact is that people are attracted to Reddit based on content. You don't need to ban any people if you change the content to attract (and repel) different people. Reddit is now the most popular site on the Internet for racists to congregate. I think that is a problem for the whole site. Making the site less accommodating to racists would seem to be a good first step in addressing that issue. Reddit doesn't appear willing to do that.

leereeves 11y ago
I don't know who said this, but I heard it somewhere: "If you support free speech, you can count on being accused of supporting the worst things anyone can say."
- slg 11y ago
  I don't think that is relevant here. We already establish that Reddit is going to be stricter than the law. Right now we are only debating how much stricter than the law it should be.
  - leereeves 11y ago
    I'm not sure we've established that. If reddit is stricter than the law in banning cyber harassment and some non-consensual photographs, they aren't much stricter. There are laws against those things in California.
    - slg 11y ago
      That is only a subset of the banned content. Almost none of the below stuff is illegal and was alos listed in the post's banned list. -Spam -Publication of someone’s private and confidential information -Anything that incites harm or violence against an individual or group of people (it's ok to say "I don't like this group of people." It's not ok to say, "I'm going to kill this group of people.") -Anything that harasses, bullies, or abuses[2] an individual or group of people (these behaviors intimidate others into silence) -Sexually suggestive content featuring minors
      - leereeves 11y ago
        All of those (except spam) are slightly wider nets centered on things that are illegal. See, for example CA penal code sections 422, 653m, and 653.2.
rory096 11y ago
Gotcha, I see what you mean. (Didn't intend to put words in your mouth) My counterpoint is that reddit is the most popular site for just about any group to congregate on the internet. If you're a niche site trying to keep out the riff-raff your advice is definitely the way to go. But I'd argue that reddit is pretty close to a cross-section of people on the internet- and that's a desirable goal in itself. You're right that banning racist subs would discourage racists from joining the conversation generally. (Though there's an argument to be made that it would also mean leakage into the rest of reddit.) But is less-racist-than-society necessarily better than just society? You gain not having to read assholes saying dumb things and just generally being civilized. But if those people are stuck in their isolated internet cesspools, the echo chamber could just encourage them to get worse and worse. If they're on reddit, they might have an epiphany after a conversation with someone they later realize is of another race, or they might get called out and downvoted when they say something inappropriate in a non-hate sub and realize the limits of reasonable behavior, or any number of other things. It's been a while since I've read any literature on the subject, but I'd be surprised if the best way to cure a racist wasn't to foster interactions with both non-racists and members of another race.
- slg 11y ago
  I think the difference between this content being on a niche site and being on Reddit is the discoverability. If all this hate was confined to Stormfront, you would have to go to Stormfront to see it. No one would do that unless they already have racist leaning beliefs. The racism on Reddit is just mixed in with all the other content. Users can find it in places like the previously mentioned Jesse Jackson AMA. That serves as an opportunity for recruitment. People can be pulled into a world of concentrated racism on Reddit without even noticing. I think that is basically what happened with FatPeopleHate. I don't think all of the 150k+ users were bad people, they just were pulled into a world of hate without realizing how damaging it could be.
  - rory096 11y ago
    This is a great point. I've been thinking about the problem exogenously- as a group of racists (/etc.) out there that we as the internet have to deal with. (People are still getting convinced of racism?) It definitely becomes a balancing act, then, of whether the flow is more towards normalizing radicals or radicalizing normals. I'd hope it's more the former, and actually spez's NFWC category might help with that- since you'd have to manually opt-in to the cesspit, sort of like turning on HN's showdead. And maybe because it's easier to stumble on it's easier to get out- once someone's hooked into Stormfront they're probably irretrievable; every aspect of their forum experience will be framed by that fact. Whereas on reddit they might have 10 cat subreddits diluting that content, it's just a matter of getting them to click that "unsubscribe" button once.