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Is it possible--not saying it's so, just asking a hypothetical question--that Apple just makes more desirable phones? [Edit] Wow, everybody, I meant more desir

Is it possible--not saying it's so, just asking a hypothetical question--that Apple just makes more desirable phones? [Edit] Wow, everybody, I meant more desirable as in; people are willing to pay more. I know FTA that they are only 20% by volume.

hellofunk 11y ago
Apple's actual market share is less than 20% of all smartphones worldwide, though their share of profits is at 92%. This is not about their phone selling more than other phones (they aren't necessarily), but rather how Apple manages profit margins. Their phones are much more expensive than the competition, command premium prices and thus yield premium profits.
- shawndumas 11y ago
  And would that not mean that their phone is more desirable? Lots of things are desirable that are not affordable and are not, therefore, purchased in vast quantities.
  - hellofunk 11y ago
    Depends how you quantify "desirable" but since there are many more Android phones in the world than iPhones, some would say that means Android phones are more desirable. But either way, that really has little to do with profits. If I sell just one item in my entire life for a million bucks, something that cost me ten bucks to make, that is pretty impressive profits, even though it was not desirable since only one person bought it.
    - spott 11y ago
      I think you can only associate desirability with units if you hold other things equal: price, availability, etc.
- josefresco 11y ago
  Yet, in at least North America, equivalent "high end" Android smartphones cost the same on contract and even off contract than iPhones. I can get an older iPhone 5c for free (probably a 5S is I go with a smaller carrier). Where are people paying a "premium" for the iPhone? Is is that not enough people choose the flagship Android devices to move the needle? I'm genuinely curious/asking because it seems/appears there's some parity (price) between the current flagship Android devices and Apple's newest.
  - hellofunk 11y ago
    Well I paid $1000 including Apple Care for my iphone, so that's a pretty hefty profit to Apple!
  - hellofunk 11y ago
    Also, profit formulas aren't that simple. You have consider Apple's costs vs their revenue for each phone, and also their contract terms with providers vs other phones. I don't know the details. But perhaps Apple earns more for their phone contracts even if consumers pay the same. One thing we do know is that Apple leads the world in an extremely well-oiled production pipeline and network of suppliers that no doubt also helps keep their costs down and thus their profits high. I doubt Android manufacturers are operating at that same margin.
    - josefresco 11y ago
      Good points. I would imagine that Apple has a better supply chain, and more aggressive/favorable terms with each provider than competing smartphone makers. I'm not sure it accounts for the entire difference. I wonder if there's a middle area or marketplace where people pay disproportionally more on average which helps this figure (92%) climb so high.
    - noir_lord 11y ago
      > But perhaps Apple earns more for their phone contracts even if consumers pay the same. Considering the demand for iPhones a few years ago I'd be amazed if this wasn't the case, I suspect the carriers also pay a chunk of the advertising if it's an exclusive deal.
- increment_i 11y ago
  Those really are incredible figures when you think about it. 20% of market share reaping 92% of the profits. Is there any comparable in any other industry? Ever? I'm currently in the android camp but I have to say I'm astounded how Apple consistently pulls off these kinds of numbers.
- matwood 11y ago
  I wonder if someone has done marketshare numbers with respect to flagship phones. I thought the Nexus 5 was a great phone for $350, but then the Nexus 6 went back to full flagship price and pushed me back to an iPhone for that amount of money. My thought is, if Apple is pulling all of the profits then they are the flagship to buy if someone is in the market for a flagship phone. Otherwise, if someone is buying on price it is Android all the way.
jerf 11y ago
In 2015, not proportional to that profit difference, no. iPhones are not dozens of times better than all Android phones. There's something else to it, the construction of some sort of successful moat that allows them to charge more.
- shawndumas 11y ago
  More desirable as in; people are willing to pay more.
  - jerf 11y ago
    Yes, that's my point. There has to be more to it than just "they're better", because no matter how Apple fanboy someone may want to be today, there's no conceivable way they are that much better. There must be some kind of moat. Full stack integration or some sort of big savings from owning the OS or something, because it has to be more than just "they're better". Besides, if it were just a raw "they're better" they'd have a much bigger market share, too.
sneak 11y ago
Hardware is nothing without software. They make more desirable phones because they make iOS. People don't so much care about the iPhone; they want iOS and the safety, convenience, and integration with the Apple software ecosystem. Apple has leveraged this into a hugely profitable position by making the only hardware supported by this OS. The iPhone is crap when evaluated on battery life or camera quality, for example. It's software that's eating the world.
- JustSomeNobody 11y ago
  I would kind of agree with you. I use android because I can simply plug it in and drag and drop any file I want. Yes, there's dropbox, etc. Those aren't options for me. Also, I love the way Android allows data to be shared between apps. I find it very intuitive. If iOS had those things, I think I'd try switching, just to get something new.
  - computmaxer 11y ago
    AirDrop - you don't even have to plug it in.
    - JustSomeNobody 11y ago
      Not sure this would cover my requirement.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- gyc 11y ago
  It seems based on the tech site reviews that I've read, flagship Android phones have only now caught up to or surpassed iPhones with regards to camera quality with the latest iterations of flagship Samsung and LG phones.
dublinben 11y ago
If it were that simple, wouldn't they have more than 20% market share? It seems clear to me that iPhone owners are paying a premium for the branding, which is pure profit from Apple's perspective.
- shawndumas 11y ago
  Which would indicate desirability, no?
  - dublinben 11y ago
    For that 20% of the market, sure. For the 80% that buy non-Apple phones, they are clearly more "desirable" to them.
    - shawndumas 11y ago
      How many people that bought a Corolla would have taken a Camry for the same price? (Again, not saying that Apple is better.)
      - dublinben 11y ago
        Even with price parity through on-contract upgrades, apparently not that many. We should expect Apple marketshare to be much higher if the iPhone really is so clearly superior and more "desirable" to any rational consumer.
        shawndumas 11y ago
        I do not disagree; but keep in mind that I've never spoken of "clearly superior", only desirable. Also, since when did rationality enter the discussion? A beloved wants diamonds so their partner buys them. But diamonds are not worth anywhere near what's commonly paid for them. There is a far mix of rational/irrational behavior in most luxury purchases--it's not an Apple exclusive trait.
      - 11y ago

hellofunk 11y ago

Apple's actual market share is less than 20% of all smartphones worldwide, though their share of profits is at 92%. This is not about their phone selling more than other phones (they aren't necessarily), but rather how Apple manages profit margins. Their phones are much more expensive than the competition, command premium prices and thus yield premium profits.

shawndumas 11y ago
And would that not mean that their phone is more desirable? Lots of things are desirable that are not affordable and are not, therefore, purchased in vast quantities.
- hellofunk 11y ago
  Depends how you quantify "desirable" but since there are many more Android phones in the world than iPhones, some would say that means Android phones are more desirable. But either way, that really has little to do with profits. If I sell just one item in my entire life for a million bucks, something that cost me ten bucks to make, that is pretty impressive profits, even though it was not desirable since only one person bought it.
  - spott 11y ago
    I think you can only associate desirability with units if you hold other things equal: price, availability, etc.
josefresco 11y ago
Yet, in at least North America, equivalent "high end" Android smartphones cost the same on contract and even off contract than iPhones. I can get an older iPhone 5c for free (probably a 5S is I go with a smaller carrier). Where are people paying a "premium" for the iPhone? Is is that not enough people choose the flagship Android devices to move the needle? I'm genuinely curious/asking because it seems/appears there's some parity (price) between the current flagship Android devices and Apple's newest.
- hellofunk 11y ago
  Well I paid $1000 including Apple Care for my iphone, so that's a pretty hefty profit to Apple!
- hellofunk 11y ago
  Also, profit formulas aren't that simple. You have consider Apple's costs vs their revenue for each phone, and also their contract terms with providers vs other phones. I don't know the details. But perhaps Apple earns more for their phone contracts even if consumers pay the same. One thing we do know is that Apple leads the world in an extremely well-oiled production pipeline and network of suppliers that no doubt also helps keep their costs down and thus their profits high. I doubt Android manufacturers are operating at that same margin.
  - josefresco 11y ago
    Good points. I would imagine that Apple has a better supply chain, and more aggressive/favorable terms with each provider than competing smartphone makers. I'm not sure it accounts for the entire difference. I wonder if there's a middle area or marketplace where people pay disproportionally more on average which helps this figure (92%) climb so high.
  - noir_lord 11y ago
    > But perhaps Apple earns more for their phone contracts even if consumers pay the same. Considering the demand for iPhones a few years ago I'd be amazed if this wasn't the case, I suspect the carriers also pay a chunk of the advertising if it's an exclusive deal.
increment_i 11y ago
Those really are incredible figures when you think about it. 20% of market share reaping 92% of the profits. Is there any comparable in any other industry? Ever? I'm currently in the android camp but I have to say I'm astounded how Apple consistently pulls off these kinds of numbers.
matwood 11y ago
I wonder if someone has done marketshare numbers with respect to flagship phones. I thought the Nexus 5 was a great phone for $350, but then the Nexus 6 went back to full flagship price and pushed me back to an iPhone for that amount of money. My thought is, if Apple is pulling all of the profits then they are the flagship to buy if someone is in the market for a flagship phone. Otherwise, if someone is buying on price it is Android all the way.

jerf 11y ago

In 2015, not proportional to that profit difference, no. iPhones are not dozens of times better than all Android phones. There's something else to it, the construction of some sort of successful moat that allows them to charge more.

shawndumas 11y ago
More desirable as in; people are willing to pay more.
- jerf 11y ago
  Yes, that's my point. There has to be more to it than just "they're better", because no matter how Apple fanboy someone may want to be today, there's no conceivable way they are that much better. There must be some kind of moat. Full stack integration or some sort of big savings from owning the OS or something, because it has to be more than just "they're better". Besides, if it were just a raw "they're better" they'd have a much bigger market share, too.

sneak 11y ago

Hardware is nothing without software. They make more desirable phones because they make iOS. People don't so much care about the iPhone; they want iOS and the safety, convenience, and integration with the Apple software ecosystem. Apple has leveraged this into a hugely profitable position by making the only hardware supported by this OS. The iPhone is crap when evaluated on battery life or camera quality, for example. It's software that's eating the world.

JustSomeNobody 11y ago
I would kind of agree with you. I use android because I can simply plug it in and drag and drop any file I want. Yes, there's dropbox, etc. Those aren't options for me. Also, I love the way Android allows data to be shared between apps. I find it very intuitive. If iOS had those things, I think I'd try switching, just to get something new.
- computmaxer 11y ago
  AirDrop - you don't even have to plug it in.
  - JustSomeNobody 11y ago
    Not sure this would cover my requirement.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
gyc 11y ago
It seems based on the tech site reviews that I've read, flagship Android phones have only now caught up to or surpassed iPhones with regards to camera quality with the latest iterations of flagship Samsung and LG phones.

dublinben 11y ago

If it were that simple, wouldn't they have more than 20% market share? It seems clear to me that iPhone owners are paying a premium for the branding, which is pure profit from Apple's perspective.

shawndumas 11y ago
Which would indicate desirability, no?
- dublinben 11y ago
  For that 20% of the market, sure. For the 80% that buy non-Apple phones, they are clearly more "desirable" to them.
  - shawndumas 11y ago
    How many people that bought a Corolla would have taken a Camry for the same price? (Again, not saying that Apple is better.)
    - dublinben 11y ago
      Even with price parity through on-contract upgrades, apparently not that many. We should expect Apple marketshare to be much higher if the iPhone really is so clearly superior and more "desirable" to any rational consumer.
      - shawndumas 11y ago
        I do not disagree; but keep in mind that I've never spoken of "clearly superior", only desirable. Also, since when did rationality enter the discussion? A beloved wants diamonds so their partner buys them. But diamonds are not worth anywhere near what's commonly paid for them. There is a far mix of rational/irrational behavior in most luxury purchases--it's not an Apple exclusive trait.
    - 11y ago