4 ms·

The issue with Greece is that they were given money and they did not change anything, they just kept spending. Giving them more money is just going to delay the

by kfk 11y ago

The issue with Greece is that they were given money and they did not change anything, they just kept spending. Giving them more money is just going to delay the inevitable - they will go bankrupt, full stop. They don't produce enough of "what people want", plus they spend more than they can afford to, and that's that. The real problem is that the Eurozone has no mechanism to deal with bankrupt. There should be an easy way out of the Eurozone or an "easy" way to default. Italy will follow Greece, sooner or later, maybe Portugal and who knows, even France. We have to deal with the fact we have broken public spending all around Europe and that will catch up, if not now, in 5, 10, 15 or so years. But markets adapt to this king of stuff, they will soon build default risks in their prices and demand higher interests, on the other end, when a country default, we will be able to leave the loss to the private sector and not to the tax payers, which is the real shame in all this story.

riffraff 11y ago
> Italy will follow Greece, sooner or later, Italy is a massively different country from Greece, so this is not as obvious as you seem to consider it.
- kfk 11y ago
  You might be right. However, see this: Italy has voted Berlusconi for 20 years and now has another despotic leader who might stay another 20 who speaks poor English and has very bad understanding of economics. Meanwhile, no real policy change has been done in ages. The last try to reduce pension spending cutting the highest pensions has been rejected as not constitutional, but I digress. How is Italy going to get out of the hole it has been digging for 30 years? I just don't see it, but I may be wrong, I hope so at least.
  - CaptainZapp 11y ago
    and now has another despotic leader who might stay another 20 who speaks poor English... What has his conduct of the English language to do with governing a country, where Italian is the main spoken language? This is extremely arrogant and has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the issue.
    - jazzyk 11y ago
      True, we are talking about economics, not languages, so the OP projected PM's incompetence in one area without providing additional facts. However, I see nothing arrogant for his country citizens (who pay his salary) to expect of the highest-level official of a EU country to have such basic skills as speaking English.
      - CaptainZapp 11y ago
        There are 24 official languages in the EU, of which English is only one. Here's from the source, which is as official as it gets: http://ec.europa.eu/languages/policy/linguistic-diversity/official-languages-eu_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/languages/policy/linguistic-diversity/of...
        jazzyk 11y ago
        On paper, yes. In reality, English is being used, as it is everywhere else in the world whenever you need to talk to people from other countries. Evidence: http://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2014/may/21/european-parliament-english-language-official-debates-data http://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2014/may/21/eu...
psykovsky 11y ago
And now we see the real reason to create the Euro. Finally Germany conquered Europe, and it didn't even need to use gas chambers...
tonyedgecombe 11y ago
Not only that but the Greek government promised their populace something they can't possibly deliver, an end to austerity and staying in the euro.
- RobertoG 11y ago
  The real error of the new government was thinking they were dealing with people with the interest of Europe and the European citizens in their heart.
  - evgen 11y ago
    There is no such thing as a "European citizen" so it is not surprising that no one cares about them or people with delusions that they are citizens of a mythical European nation-state.
    - Tomte 11y ago
      Of course there is. European Citizenship is real, and held in addition to national citizenship.
      - fit2rule 11y ago
        Of which sovereign state is a European Citizen a member?
  - tonyedgecombe 11y ago
    I don't think the current government were under any illusions at all, like most politicians they were willing to promise anything to get elected.
  - sorincos 11y ago
    How about the interests of the OTHER European citizens, the ones who are supposed to pay now for Greece? EU is not only Greece, mind you.
RobertoG 11y ago
“The issue with Greece is that they were given money and they did not change anything, they just kept spending.” I don't understand why this is repeated again and again. The reality has nothing to do with that. Greece has implemented austerity policies that no other country in Europe has implemented. Compared to the American big depression, they have lived for a longer period of time with worse economic conditions. The recipes coming from the Troika has been implemented and the result is that they are in a deeper hole. So they say “now what?” and the answer is “keep digging”. I am amazed how brainwashed is the public opinion. And about where the money is going, I recommend reading this: http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/6013.html http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/6013.html
- fennecfoxen 11y ago
  You're right, this story's a little inaccurate. The problem with Greece is that they were given tons of money, they did change things, they did austerity - some of the best kind of austerity, too, like raising the retirement age, keeping people in the economy and working without the biggest impact on spending - and they did a little market reform to promote competition. And their recovery was underway, and then their people voted in a government which promised to change things back and make everything 100% painless, and then that government tried to be the hardball negotiator but without anything they could do to back up their bluster. The other problem with Greece is that they're the sort of nation where you have a nationalized health care system but you need to bribe the doctor to get an appointment. (And private industry is also sclerotic and more about bribing the regulators than being able to compete.) Lying to the EU about budget deficits in the past should be seen in this context. And the other problem with Greece is that they see Merkel in this negotiating group and think "Oh, the Germans want to occupy us again like in World War II." ANGELA MERKEL IS HITLER2.0! VOTE LEFTIST! RESIST THE REFORMS! (and according to some reputable publications on the topic of international relations, like the Wall Street Journal, word on the street in Brussels is that a lot of these countries would be happier if Greece just walks away then if they accept bailout terms at this point, because they don't trust them to actually stick to the bailout terms.)
  - nisa 11y ago
gizmo 11y ago
Loaning more money to a country already drowning doesn't solve anything, obviously. Greece is already insolvent (not bankrupt), and giving them more debt doesn't fix that. I agree that there should be a way for countries to leave the Eurozone. Also, at least one of two things need to happen: - introduce a cap on borrowing (during boom periods), so that countries can't get themselves into excessive debt. - create a bailout fund so that countries that mess up can be helped back on their feet. > we will be able to leave the loss to the private sector and not to the tax payers You're aware that the first bailout moved the losses from predatory lending from the private sector to the European taxpayer, aren't you? The entire story of the last five years is that the regular people are getting punished and the institutions get bailed out.

by kfk 11y ago

riffraff 11y ago

> Italy will follow Greece, sooner or later, Italy is a massively different country from Greece, so this is not as obvious as you seem to consider it.

kfk 11y ago
You might be right. However, see this: Italy has voted Berlusconi for 20 years and now has another despotic leader who might stay another 20 who speaks poor English and has very bad understanding of economics. Meanwhile, no real policy change has been done in ages. The last try to reduce pension spending cutting the highest pensions has been rejected as not constitutional, but I digress. How is Italy going to get out of the hole it has been digging for 30 years? I just don't see it, but I may be wrong, I hope so at least.
- CaptainZapp 11y ago
  and now has another despotic leader who might stay another 20 who speaks poor English... What has his conduct of the English language to do with governing a country, where Italian is the main spoken language? This is extremely arrogant and has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the issue.
  - jazzyk 11y ago
    True, we are talking about economics, not languages, so the OP projected PM's incompetence in one area without providing additional facts. However, I see nothing arrogant for his country citizens (who pay his salary) to expect of the highest-level official of a EU country to have such basic skills as speaking English.
    - CaptainZapp 11y ago
      There are 24 official languages in the EU, of which English is only one. Here's from the source, which is as official as it gets: http://ec.europa.eu/languages/policy/linguistic-diversity/official-languages-eu_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/languages/policy/linguistic-diversity/of...
      - jazzyk 11y ago
        On paper, yes. In reality, English is being used, as it is everywhere else in the world whenever you need to talk to people from other countries. Evidence: http://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2014/may/21/european-parliament-english-language-official-debates-data http://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2014/may/21/eu...

psykovsky 11y ago

And now we see the real reason to create the Euro. Finally Germany conquered Europe, and it didn't even need to use gas chambers...

tonyedgecombe 11y ago

Not only that but the Greek government promised their populace something they can't possibly deliver, an end to austerity and staying in the euro.

RobertoG 11y ago
The real error of the new government was thinking they were dealing with people with the interest of Europe and the European citizens in their heart.
- evgen 11y ago
  There is no such thing as a "European citizen" so it is not surprising that no one cares about them or people with delusions that they are citizens of a mythical European nation-state.
  - Tomte 11y ago
    Of course there is. European Citizenship is real, and held in addition to national citizenship.
    - fit2rule 11y ago
      Of which sovereign state is a European Citizen a member?
- tonyedgecombe 11y ago
  I don't think the current government were under any illusions at all, like most politicians they were willing to promise anything to get elected.
- sorincos 11y ago
  How about the interests of the OTHER European citizens, the ones who are supposed to pay now for Greece? EU is not only Greece, mind you.

RobertoG 11y ago

“The issue with Greece is that they were given money and they did not change anything, they just kept spending.” I don't understand why this is repeated again and again. The reality has nothing to do with that. Greece has implemented austerity policies that no other country in Europe has implemented. Compared to the American big depression, they have lived for a longer period of time with worse economic conditions. The recipes coming from the Troika has been implemented and the result is that they are in a deeper hole. So they say “now what?” and the answer is “keep digging”. I am amazed how brainwashed is the public opinion. And about where the money is going, I recommend reading this: http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/6013.html http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/6013.html

fennecfoxen 11y ago
You're right, this story's a little inaccurate. The problem with Greece is that they were given tons of money, they did change things, they did austerity - some of the best kind of austerity, too, like raising the retirement age, keeping people in the economy and working without the biggest impact on spending - and they did a little market reform to promote competition. And their recovery was underway, and then their people voted in a government which promised to change things back and make everything 100% painless, and then that government tried to be the hardball negotiator but without anything they could do to back up their bluster. The other problem with Greece is that they're the sort of nation where you have a nationalized health care system but you need to bribe the doctor to get an appointment. (And private industry is also sclerotic and more about bribing the regulators than being able to compete.) Lying to the EU about budget deficits in the past should be seen in this context. And the other problem with Greece is that they see Merkel in this negotiating group and think "Oh, the Germans want to occupy us again like in World War II." ANGELA MERKEL IS HITLER2.0! VOTE LEFTIST! RESIST THE REFORMS! (and according to some reputable publications on the topic of international relations, like the Wall Street Journal, word on the street in Brussels is that a lot of these countries would be happier if Greece just walks away then if they accept bailout terms at this point, because they don't trust them to actually stick to the bailout terms.)
- nisa 11y ago

gizmo 11y ago

Loaning more money to a country already drowning doesn't solve anything, obviously. Greece is already insolvent (not bankrupt), and giving them more debt doesn't fix that. I agree that there should be a way for countries to leave the Eurozone. Also, at least one of two things need to happen: - introduce a cap on borrowing (during boom periods), so that countries can't get themselves into excessive debt. - create a bailout fund so that countries that mess up can be helped back on their feet. > we will be able to leave the loss to the private sector and not to the tax payers You're aware that the first bailout moved the losses from predatory lending from the private sector to the European taxpayer, aren't you? The entire story of the last five years is that the regular people are getting punished and the institutions get bailed out.