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supposedly greece exiting is more expensive than keeping them but at what point do you kick out someone who is mooching off you and suddenly demanding all sorts

supposedly greece exiting is more expensive than keeping them but at what point do you kick out someone who is mooching off you and suddenly demanding all sorts of things. It's like the beggar that becomes very choosy and feel a huge entitlement. I don't know why this is the case, someone receiving so much should feel humble and grateful but instead arrogance and a need for more. having said that do they seriously expect greece to ever pay back the debt or even let alone feed their citizens? When was the last time you heard something made in Greece that wasn't in ancient history textbook and encyclopedia of Gods? I also feel irked by the lack of rationalism from EU.

SuddsMcDuff 11y ago
Mooching? They're not actually receiving much at all - 90% of the bailout money they have received has gone straight back to their creditors - Deutsche Bank, ECB and IMF. Only a tiny fraction of the bailout actually enters the Greek economy. It's like throwing a money boomerang at someone, and each time it comes back claiming that they owe you another 50 billion
- curiousjorge 11y ago
  and that's somehow EU and Germany's fault? That they are not handing over truckload of cash to a country which just wants more and more without ever paying any of it back? That they have 50% unemployment rate, and an economy incapable of producing anything worth of value that would pull them out of debt? When South Korea defaulted, the entire country came together to pay off the debt. People even brought their herilooms and personal jewlery to melt to gold bars to help the country pay back the money to IMF. Businesses and large conglomerates were not bailed out but allowed to fail so that they pick up their shit. Now we get smartphones, tv, components, kpop, cars, ships, all sorts of wonderful stuff. And greece? What the hell have they produced in the past 100 years? South Korea has only been around half that. Why should Germany put up with this kind of attitude? Where does this sense of entitlement come from in Greece? Do they seriously believe that the rest of Europe owes them something? If they are this arrogant then let them fail and see just how quickly Greece will downspiral into a failed state.
  - SuddsMcDuff 11y ago
    I think your argument is predicated on the notion that banks lending money is somehow a benevolent, charitable act. It isn't. In a fractional reserve banking system, making loans is precisely how banks make their money. Unless of course they get greedy and start making ill-advised, unsecured bad loans. Then their greed is going to come back and bite them in the ass when the debtor can't pay. Lets not forget the Goldman Sachs helped Greece to cook the books to get into the Eurozone in the first place.
    - curiousjorge 11y ago
      So if banks don't give Greece money to prevent it from turning into Mogadishu, then who do they expect to keep the country afloat? I mean they haven't been able to do that for 90 years. They need to keep taking out loans, and now suddenly the hand that was feeding them are the bad guys? What kind of logic is that?
      - SuddsMcDuff 11y ago
        There's no good guys and bad guys in this. You must understand that unless a loan is issued with a zero or negative interest rate, it will always have a net negative impact on your balance. Where else does the money to repay the interest come from? This is especially true with central banks, where every € you receive comes with debt attached. How do you repay the interest on those debts? You have to borrow more €'s from the central bank, which also come with more debt attached. And so your debt burden increases exponentially until you're crippled by interest repayments. It is mathematically impossible to repay debt in these circumstances. It takes two parties to get into a mess like this. As the old saying goes, "if you owe the bank $50 thousand, you're in trouble. If you owe the bank $50 billion, you're in it together".
        curiousjorge 11y ago
        > There's no good guys and bad guys in this. You must understand that unless a loan is issued with a zero or negative interest rate, it will always have a net negative impact on your balance. Where else does the money to repay the interest come from? Why the hell would anyone give out loans in first place if they are going to get zero to negative interest rates? Even Islamic banking takes equity or other ways of making sure that they are rewarded for lending money. I'm just trying to see it from your view but you simply demonize EU and Banks because it gives the borrower a hard time without considering that it's also the lender's money and opportunity cost at stake here. It's not very convincing.
StavrosK 11y ago
Where are you getting all these from? What Greece is saying is "we want to pay back the debt without starving the lower-income citizens to death". That's entitlement?
- curiousjorge 11y ago
  >without starving the lower-income citizens to death do you seriously believe Greece is capable of that if they are to go on their own path? What industry is there to speak of in Greece? What goods or resources are they willing to trade or offer to the rest of the world? And why do you feel the need to make this into a political argument and not of economics? Of course you can pay back the debt without starving it's own people if they could, but they can't. There's nothing that I can see or EU believes that Greece could pull itself out of debt and they are in for some deep amount of money. Did you really expect EU to give them another get out of jail card like they have all this time? I'm just an observer, I don't work for EU.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >do you seriously believe Greece is capable of that if they are to go on their own path? What industry is there to speak of in Greece? What goods or resources are they willing to trade or offer to the rest of the world? Racist much? Greece has a import/export deficit (excluding oil) of around -1%. They have a large tourism industry, a strong (worldwide competitive) shipping industry, and they export food products, minerals (ores?) and lots of other things besides. >And why do you feel the need to make this into a political argument and not of economics? Because Economics 101 already says the plan imposed and followed for 5 years is illogical and doomed to failure. Check any leading economist on the issue (except those serving in political positions in involved countries). Heck, there's even an IMF report saying exactly that. >Did you really expect EU to give them another get out of jail card like they have all this time? "Get out of jail" card? Perhaps you should read some more into the history of all this. The "card" Greece was shown for the last 5 years lead to a 25% GPD fall, 30% unemployment (50% youth unemployment), huge pay cuts (over 40%), and several other measures besides. The only one who ever took a "get out of jail free card" in Europe was Germany, who's national debt and war reccuperation payments were slashed over 60% (including war reccuperations to Greece, for destroying infrastructure and leading to the death of 700.000 people, on top of getting a forced loan from the Greek state while it was occupied they never repaid).

SuddsMcDuff 11y ago

Mooching? They're not actually receiving much at all - 90% of the bailout money they have received has gone straight back to their creditors - Deutsche Bank, ECB and IMF. Only a tiny fraction of the bailout actually enters the Greek economy. It's like throwing a money boomerang at someone, and each time it comes back claiming that they owe you another 50 billion

curiousjorge 11y ago
and that's somehow EU and Germany's fault? That they are not handing over truckload of cash to a country which just wants more and more without ever paying any of it back? That they have 50% unemployment rate, and an economy incapable of producing anything worth of value that would pull them out of debt? When South Korea defaulted, the entire country came together to pay off the debt. People even brought their herilooms and personal jewlery to melt to gold bars to help the country pay back the money to IMF. Businesses and large conglomerates were not bailed out but allowed to fail so that they pick up their shit. Now we get smartphones, tv, components, kpop, cars, ships, all sorts of wonderful stuff. And greece? What the hell have they produced in the past 100 years? South Korea has only been around half that. Why should Germany put up with this kind of attitude? Where does this sense of entitlement come from in Greece? Do they seriously believe that the rest of Europe owes them something? If they are this arrogant then let them fail and see just how quickly Greece will downspiral into a failed state.
- SuddsMcDuff 11y ago
  I think your argument is predicated on the notion that banks lending money is somehow a benevolent, charitable act. It isn't. In a fractional reserve banking system, making loans is precisely how banks make their money. Unless of course they get greedy and start making ill-advised, unsecured bad loans. Then their greed is going to come back and bite them in the ass when the debtor can't pay. Lets not forget the Goldman Sachs helped Greece to cook the books to get into the Eurozone in the first place.
  - curiousjorge 11y ago
    So if banks don't give Greece money to prevent it from turning into Mogadishu, then who do they expect to keep the country afloat? I mean they haven't been able to do that for 90 years. They need to keep taking out loans, and now suddenly the hand that was feeding them are the bad guys? What kind of logic is that?
    - SuddsMcDuff 11y ago
      There's no good guys and bad guys in this. You must understand that unless a loan is issued with a zero or negative interest rate, it will always have a net negative impact on your balance. Where else does the money to repay the interest come from? This is especially true with central banks, where every € you receive comes with debt attached. How do you repay the interest on those debts? You have to borrow more €'s from the central bank, which also come with more debt attached. And so your debt burden increases exponentially until you're crippled by interest repayments. It is mathematically impossible to repay debt in these circumstances. It takes two parties to get into a mess like this. As the old saying goes, "if you owe the bank $50 thousand, you're in trouble. If you owe the bank $50 billion, you're in it together".
      - curiousjorge 11y ago
        > There's no good guys and bad guys in this. You must understand that unless a loan is issued with a zero or negative interest rate, it will always have a net negative impact on your balance. Where else does the money to repay the interest come from? Why the hell would anyone give out loans in first place if they are going to get zero to negative interest rates? Even Islamic banking takes equity or other ways of making sure that they are rewarded for lending money. I'm just trying to see it from your view but you simply demonize EU and Banks because it gives the borrower a hard time without considering that it's also the lender's money and opportunity cost at stake here. It's not very convincing.

StavrosK 11y ago

Where are you getting all these from? What Greece is saying is "we want to pay back the debt without starving the lower-income citizens to death". That's entitlement?

curiousjorge 11y ago
>without starving the lower-income citizens to death do you seriously believe Greece is capable of that if they are to go on their own path? What industry is there to speak of in Greece? What goods or resources are they willing to trade or offer to the rest of the world? And why do you feel the need to make this into a political argument and not of economics? Of course you can pay back the debt without starving it's own people if they could, but they can't. There's nothing that I can see or EU believes that Greece could pull itself out of debt and they are in for some deep amount of money. Did you really expect EU to give them another get out of jail card like they have all this time? I'm just an observer, I don't work for EU.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >do you seriously believe Greece is capable of that if they are to go on their own path? What industry is there to speak of in Greece? What goods or resources are they willing to trade or offer to the rest of the world? Racist much? Greece has a import/export deficit (excluding oil) of around -1%. They have a large tourism industry, a strong (worldwide competitive) shipping industry, and they export food products, minerals (ores?) and lots of other things besides. >And why do you feel the need to make this into a political argument and not of economics? Because Economics 101 already says the plan imposed and followed for 5 years is illogical and doomed to failure. Check any leading economist on the issue (except those serving in political positions in involved countries). Heck, there's even an IMF report saying exactly that. >Did you really expect EU to give them another get out of jail card like they have all this time? "Get out of jail" card? Perhaps you should read some more into the history of all this. The "card" Greece was shown for the last 5 years lead to a 25% GPD fall, 30% unemployment (50% youth unemployment), huge pay cuts (over 40%), and several other measures besides. The only one who ever took a "get out of jail free card" in Europe was Germany, who's national debt and war reccuperation payments were slashed over 60% (including war reccuperations to Greece, for destroying infrastructure and leading to the death of 700.000 people, on top of getting a forced loan from the Greek state while it was occupied they never repaid).