7 ms·

Inability to keep an immutable record of what's been published disqualifies nyt from its claim of being "the paper of record".

brudgers 11y ago
Not if the print edition is considered the record. The analogy would be eventual consistency in exchange for higher availability: the tradeoff is the occasional stale read.
- 001sky 11y ago
  The ethics don't stop when you hit 'send to print'
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  I just don't agree. It's not as though this isn't a solved problem. And this isn't just a stale read, it's a bait and switch.
  - brudgers 11y ago
    It becomes bait and switch via a presumption that the editorial direction wrought by the changes is improper. It's not if one presumes that the additional context makes for better journalism: then the changes are improvement. This appears to be the belief The New York Times's editors.
    - leereeves 11y ago
      Switching a neutral article for an opinion piece would bother me even if I agreed with the opinion.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        I read this comment and was moved to summarize every graf in the piece to check whether it was an opinion piece: https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=9870891 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=9870891 Spoiler: I don't think "it's an opinion piece" is a colorable argument.
        leereeves 11y ago
        Consider the neutral statements that were deleted: “It became clear that the board and I had a different view on the ability of Reddit to grow this year,” Ms. Pao said in an interview. “Because of that, it made sense to bring someone in that shared the same view.” Sam Altman, a member of Reddit’s board, said he personally appreciated Ms. Pao’s efforts during her two years working at the start-up. “Ellen has done a phenomenal job, especially in the last few months,” he said. Also consider what the article left out, like the complaints of IAmA mods about the way Victoria was terminated; the requirement that all employees move to San Francisco; the ban on salary negotiations; the community manager who said he was fired for being too sick to work; the complaints from mods about poor support from the admins. Some opinion pieces explicitly state an opinion. This one conveys an opinion by cherry-picking facts and quotes.
        tptacek 11y ago
        * Contra your argument, the piece retains Pao's claim that she left because of differences on the direction of the company. * The Altman quote that was removed favors Pao's supporters. Removing it makes her plight less sympathetic. * Contra your argument, the petition not only remains in the final story, but has its own graf. * Contra your argument, the piece retains the concern about Victoria's firing. * The relocation of Reddit's employees was a Yishan Wong initiative, as was the salary negotiation policy. There is virtually no news story that you can't attack for "leaving out facts". You might not like this reported news story, but it is not an opinion piece.
        leereeves 11y ago
        You're right about the petition. Mea culpa; it was just moved. What's your source re the salary negotiation policy? Numerous news stories said it was Pao's decision. The move to SF was often brought up again in discussions over the past couple weeks. Contra the misogyny argument, there's anger at reddit that pre-dates Pao. Regarding the Altman quote and Pao's statement that "it made sense to bring someone in that shared the same view", I can see your interpretation, though I disagree. Regarding Victoria's firing: yes, the NYT mentioned it, but without explaining why it angered the mods so much.
      - brudgers 11y ago
        Deliberate omission of some set of facts is just as much an editorial decision as their inclusion. Ignoring the context of Pao's history in tech is as editorial as its inclusion. The BBC's "Omar Sharif: Lawrence of Arabia star dies aged 83" is appropriate for mentioning his role in a movie more than 50 years ago. Journalism is about exposing the relevant facts and erring on the side of too much rather than witholding is reasonable. History matters. The past is never dead. It's not even past. -- Faulkner
        leereeves 11y ago
        Deliberate omission of facts that don't fit a particular opinion is a form of advocacy for that opinion. The NYT is entitled to their opinion, but I think it should be expressed in an editorial, not used to choose what facts to report.
        tptacek 11y ago
        You cannot call a reported news story an 'editorial' because the facts it chooses to present are somehow inconvenient to your agenda. Contra repeated claims that this piece was transformed by addition of "opinions", it seems to be composed entirely of verifiable facts.
        leereeves 11y ago
        I hardly ever use reddit, and I'll certainly agree that reddit (especially the default subs) is dominated by young males and can be, at times, misogynistic. If I have an agenda here, it's to ask for better from professional journalists.
        FredoKing 11y ago
        Would you start a news about Hillary Clinton as, "Hillary Clinton, hero to many..." even though it might be technically true?
    - Dylan16807 11y ago
      If you replace a good article on apples with a great article on bridges, it's still a bait and switch.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Increasing the article's emphasis on gender issues does not make the revision a "bait and switch". All the substantive material from the earlier revision remains. No facts reported in the original piece have changed.
- PhantomGremlin 11y ago
  Not if the print edition is considered the record. The NY Times, like all newspapers, is feeling some financial pain. However, go back about 40 or 50 years to the salad days, and there was no such thing as "the print edition". Many newspapers, including the Times, published a number of editions during the day. National papers were also published regionally, with somewhat different contents. I don't know what happens nowadays. In times of old, the NY Times National edition was supplanted by the Late City edition. But this caused some problems, as this FAQ discusses: http://www.loc.gov/rr/news/faqs/news/nyteds.html http://www.loc.gov/rr/news/faqs/news/nyteds.html
tptacek 11y ago
To message board nerds, yes. To anyone who takes seriously the notion that the Times is the "paper of record", no. (This is a positive argument, not a normative one.)
jchomali 11y ago
I totally agree with you.

brudgers 11y ago

Not if the print edition is considered the record. The analogy would be eventual consistency in exchange for higher availability: the tradeoff is the occasional stale read.

001sky 11y ago
The ethics don't stop when you hit 'send to print'
fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
I just don't agree. It's not as though this isn't a solved problem. And this isn't just a stale read, it's a bait and switch.
- brudgers 11y ago
  It becomes bait and switch via a presumption that the editorial direction wrought by the changes is improper. It's not if one presumes that the additional context makes for better journalism: then the changes are improvement. This appears to be the belief The New York Times's editors.
  - leereeves 11y ago
    Switching a neutral article for an opinion piece would bother me even if I agreed with the opinion.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      I read this comment and was moved to summarize every graf in the piece to check whether it was an opinion piece: https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=9870891 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=9870891 Spoiler: I don't think "it's an opinion piece" is a colorable argument.
      - leereeves 11y ago
        Consider the neutral statements that were deleted: “It became clear that the board and I had a different view on the ability of Reddit to grow this year,” Ms. Pao said in an interview. “Because of that, it made sense to bring someone in that shared the same view.” Sam Altman, a member of Reddit’s board, said he personally appreciated Ms. Pao’s efforts during her two years working at the start-up. “Ellen has done a phenomenal job, especially in the last few months,” he said. Also consider what the article left out, like the complaints of IAmA mods about the way Victoria was terminated; the requirement that all employees move to San Francisco; the ban on salary negotiations; the community manager who said he was fired for being too sick to work; the complaints from mods about poor support from the admins. Some opinion pieces explicitly state an opinion. This one conveys an opinion by cherry-picking facts and quotes.
        tptacek 11y ago
        * Contra your argument, the piece retains Pao's claim that she left because of differences on the direction of the company. * The Altman quote that was removed favors Pao's supporters. Removing it makes her plight less sympathetic. * Contra your argument, the petition not only remains in the final story, but has its own graf. * Contra your argument, the piece retains the concern about Victoria's firing. * The relocation of Reddit's employees was a Yishan Wong initiative, as was the salary negotiation policy. There is virtually no news story that you can't attack for "leaving out facts". You might not like this reported news story, but it is not an opinion piece.
        leereeves 11y ago
        You're right about the petition. Mea culpa; it was just moved. What's your source re the salary negotiation policy? Numerous news stories said it was Pao's decision. The move to SF was often brought up again in discussions over the past couple weeks. Contra the misogyny argument, there's anger at reddit that pre-dates Pao. Regarding the Altman quote and Pao's statement that "it made sense to bring someone in that shared the same view", I can see your interpretation, though I disagree. Regarding Victoria's firing: yes, the NYT mentioned it, but without explaining why it angered the mods so much.
    - brudgers 11y ago
      Deliberate omission of some set of facts is just as much an editorial decision as their inclusion. Ignoring the context of Pao's history in tech is as editorial as its inclusion. The BBC's "Omar Sharif: Lawrence of Arabia star dies aged 83" is appropriate for mentioning his role in a movie more than 50 years ago. Journalism is about exposing the relevant facts and erring on the side of too much rather than witholding is reasonable. History matters. The past is never dead. It's not even past. -- Faulkner
      - leereeves 11y ago
        Deliberate omission of facts that don't fit a particular opinion is a form of advocacy for that opinion. The NYT is entitled to their opinion, but I think it should be expressed in an editorial, not used to choose what facts to report.
        tptacek 11y ago
        You cannot call a reported news story an 'editorial' because the facts it chooses to present are somehow inconvenient to your agenda. Contra repeated claims that this piece was transformed by addition of "opinions", it seems to be composed entirely of verifiable facts.
        leereeves 11y ago
        I hardly ever use reddit, and I'll certainly agree that reddit (especially the default subs) is dominated by young males and can be, at times, misogynistic. If I have an agenda here, it's to ask for better from professional journalists.
        FredoKing 11y ago
        Would you start a news about Hillary Clinton as, "Hillary Clinton, hero to many..." even though it might be technically true?
  - Dylan16807 11y ago
    If you replace a good article on apples with a great article on bridges, it's still a bait and switch.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Increasing the article's emphasis on gender issues does not make the revision a "bait and switch". All the substantive material from the earlier revision remains. No facts reported in the original piece have changed.
PhantomGremlin 11y ago
Not if the print edition is considered the record. The NY Times, like all newspapers, is feeling some financial pain. However, go back about 40 or 50 years to the salad days, and there was no such thing as "the print edition". Many newspapers, including the Times, published a number of editions during the day. National papers were also published regionally, with somewhat different contents. I don't know what happens nowadays. In times of old, the NY Times National edition was supplanted by the Late City edition. But this caused some problems, as this FAQ discusses: http://www.loc.gov/rr/news/faqs/news/nyteds.html http://www.loc.gov/rr/news/faqs/news/nyteds.html

tptacek 11y ago

To message board nerds, yes. To anyone who takes seriously the notion that the Times is the "paper of record", no. (This is a positive argument, not a normative one.)

jchomali 11y ago

I totally agree with you.