4 ms·

I think this level of openness and such a specific salary formula speaks volumes about the work culture and that should partially answer your question. If my e

by cdubzzz 11y ago

I think this level of openness and such a specific salary formula speaks volumes about the work culture and that should partially answer your question. If my employer made this level of information available to everyone, I would have a great deal more trust and confidence in the senior management and probably wouldn't be job hunting on the side.

k-mcgrady 11y ago
>> "If my employer made this level of information available to everyone" ...I would stay well away. I guess it's different for everyone but I don't want this kind of information available to my colleagues never mind the general public.
- RussianCow 11y ago
  May I ask why? What's wrong with people knowing how much you make?
  - k-mcgrady 11y ago
    It can lead to uncomfortable social situations. Although I would like to believe people don't get jealous of how much others make or change their opinion based on that they do, even if they don't mean too.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      This is entirely based on the people you work with. I'm sure some of my co-workers make more than me, but I would never think for a moment they don't deserve it or haven't earned it. The future is radical transparency; we should be prepared to embrace it.
      - k-mcgrady 11y ago
        I actually wasn't even thinking of the workplace. If people contribute more to the company and therefore earn more, fine. I was thinking outside of the office. E.g. a friend offering to pay for a meal when you know they can't afford it as easily as you can or vice versa.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Most government worker salaries are already public information. Everyone's property value and home/condo sale price information is already public. I don't see personal financial information moving towards being more private anytime soon.
        cookiecaper 11y ago
        Government worker salaries are not usual directly associated with the names of the people receiving them; the classifications are public, but you can't just type in "my neighbor salary" in Google and see what they make; you don't know what classification most government workers hold. Elected officials are the common exception to this, since we know senators make $x and we know all 100 people that are currently senators, we can look up the salary for the mayor and associate it with the mayor of the city, etc. Even then the published salaries should be seen as a baseline, since many public personas have multiple streams of income.
        ktsmith 11y ago
        Who needs google: http://www.transparentnevada.com/salaries/search/ http://www.transparentnevada.com/salaries/search/ There has been plenty of pressure applied to state government to provide this information under freedom of information laws. When a local paper initially collected this information and made it available there was public backlash against both the paper, and the way certain people were compensated (mostly firefighters, police officers but also some school teachers and university employees). After a while most people forgot about it but the push continued and now we have things like the above linked site where you can find the total compensation of every employee of the state of Nevada.
      - ryanmarsh 11y ago
        Forget the co-workers, how about your neighbors, debt collectors, direct marketers. Publishing the salary of private citizens should be criminal.
        nacs 11y ago
        "Criminal" is a bit excessive.. If my employer suddenly published salaries then it may be an issue but they've been publishing these reports for years. I'm sure everyone who works there is both aware and accepting of the publishing. If they didn't like it, they wouldn't have accepted the job in the first place.
        ryanmarsh 11y ago
        Perhaps you're right. Perhaps I let my emotions get the better of me.
    - patcon 11y ago
      Interesting. In general, I'm curious why we all seem to feel wealth should be private. That ability to hide liquid wealth is something (relatively) new to our brains and societies. I would think a society where we could easily size up one another's wealth would be more in line with how our brains evolved to understand our social space...
      - philsnow 11y ago
        That's just the thing, though. People want to connect on a personal level with other people, and if other people know that they make 50% more or 50% less than you, they will (by and large) treat you differently, even if subconsciously.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    It's asking for trouble along several axes. There is the social aspect. If people you know and interact with on a daily basis know your income, they'll preload their assumptions about your money management skills into every interaction. Sometimes they'll ask for money and resent you if you decline, even though they probably have no idea what kind of liabilities you're facing (and it's reasonable to keep those private too). They'll judge all of your choices against your income; if you buy something that's a bit of a stretch, like a nicer car, you may get lectured on, but you'll definitely get judged on, how you can't really afford that, or how you're terrible at managing your income, etc. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Publicized salary information makes personal interactions more difficult all around. It can make business more difficult. Consider a world where everyone's salary is public, and anyone selling you a product can look up your income and demand certain payment based on a percentage of your income. It'd be a lot harder to negotiate or deal with salespeople this way. "Salary history" is one of the HR department's great tools for screwing over employees; instead of paying you a salary commensurate with the value you bring to the company, they just have to offer a marginal bump. Again, it neuters negotiation, since they know your hand ahead of time. There can be legal ramifications. Consider a situation where you get in a car accident, exchange insurance information, and the other party looks up your salary online and discovers that you make enough to be worth bringing to court. Even if he'd lose the case, and even if it's small claims, it'd cost you time and money in transportation, time off, etc. If it's not small claims, it'd cost you legal fees too. The claimant would anticipate that your lawyer would recommend a settlement and may sue even if his prospects were poor; since your income information would be public, said lawyers would take your case on contingency, since you have enough money to be worth trying to wring out. The old saying "good fences make good neighbors" applies and can be generalized as "a reasonable amount of privacy keeps people civil" (it needn't refer exclusively to fences). Your personal affairs can and should stay personal.
    - x43b 11y ago
      Cookiecaper "Government worker salaries are not usual directly associated with the names of the people receiving them; the classifications are public, but you can't just type in "my neighbor salary" in Google and see what they make;" Not google, but not much more work. If you know their name you do not need to know their classification. http://php.app.com/fed_employees14/search.php http://php.app.com/fed_employees14/search.php
- cdubzzz 11y ago
  Yeah, perfectly understandable. I'm sure Buffer's intention here is largely to attract people who will fit the environment they want to foster and this draws a pretty hard line. And it is a double-edged sword - an employee could look at that formula after a year and think, "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that." I also can't even imagine what it would be like trying to implement such a policy if it weren't in place from the start, hah.
  - k-mcgrady 11y ago
    >> " I'm sure Buffer's intention here is largely to attract people who will fit the environment they want to foster and this draws a pretty hard line." Good point.
  - danfarrelly 11y ago
    "an employee could look at that formula after a year and think, "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that."" The good part about this is that the formula and system is open to change and will continue to evolve as we find ways that it could be working better for us. We're actually in the midst of some changes right now that have and will really help the formula work in the coming months & years.
    - cdubzzz 11y ago
      Yeah, I'm not at all surprised about that based on what this degree of openness says about the culture of Buffer. Keep it up. I also have to think balancing such a formula is a very interesting challenge. On the one hand you don't want it so hard coded that there is no wiggle room, but on the other a higher fudge factor can really change the type of applicants that come along.
  - nightski 11y ago
    "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that." I am self employed now but honestly this could be said of any company - public salary formula or not.
tdees40 11y ago
In Norway everyone's income is public. I'd be curious to hear from any Norwegians how this works out in practice.

by cdubzzz 11y ago

k-mcgrady 11y ago

>> "If my employer made this level of information available to everyone" ...I would stay well away. I guess it's different for everyone but I don't want this kind of information available to my colleagues never mind the general public.

RussianCow 11y ago
May I ask why? What's wrong with people knowing how much you make?
- k-mcgrady 11y ago
  It can lead to uncomfortable social situations. Although I would like to believe people don't get jealous of how much others make or change their opinion based on that they do, even if they don't mean too.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    This is entirely based on the people you work with. I'm sure some of my co-workers make more than me, but I would never think for a moment they don't deserve it or haven't earned it. The future is radical transparency; we should be prepared to embrace it.
    - k-mcgrady 11y ago
      I actually wasn't even thinking of the workplace. If people contribute more to the company and therefore earn more, fine. I was thinking outside of the office. E.g. a friend offering to pay for a meal when you know they can't afford it as easily as you can or vice versa.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Most government worker salaries are already public information. Everyone's property value and home/condo sale price information is already public. I don't see personal financial information moving towards being more private anytime soon.
        cookiecaper 11y ago
        Government worker salaries are not usual directly associated with the names of the people receiving them; the classifications are public, but you can't just type in "my neighbor salary" in Google and see what they make; you don't know what classification most government workers hold. Elected officials are the common exception to this, since we know senators make $x and we know all 100 people that are currently senators, we can look up the salary for the mayor and associate it with the mayor of the city, etc. Even then the published salaries should be seen as a baseline, since many public personas have multiple streams of income.
        ktsmith 11y ago
        Who needs google: http://www.transparentnevada.com/salaries/search/ http://www.transparentnevada.com/salaries/search/ There has been plenty of pressure applied to state government to provide this information under freedom of information laws. When a local paper initially collected this information and made it available there was public backlash against both the paper, and the way certain people were compensated (mostly firefighters, police officers but also some school teachers and university employees). After a while most people forgot about it but the push continued and now we have things like the above linked site where you can find the total compensation of every employee of the state of Nevada.
    - ryanmarsh 11y ago
      Forget the co-workers, how about your neighbors, debt collectors, direct marketers. Publishing the salary of private citizens should be criminal.
      - nacs 11y ago
        "Criminal" is a bit excessive.. If my employer suddenly published salaries then it may be an issue but they've been publishing these reports for years. I'm sure everyone who works there is both aware and accepting of the publishing. If they didn't like it, they wouldn't have accepted the job in the first place.
        ryanmarsh 11y ago
        Perhaps you're right. Perhaps I let my emotions get the better of me.
  - patcon 11y ago
    Interesting. In general, I'm curious why we all seem to feel wealth should be private. That ability to hide liquid wealth is something (relatively) new to our brains and societies. I would think a society where we could easily size up one another's wealth would be more in line with how our brains evolved to understand our social space...
    - philsnow 11y ago
      That's just the thing, though. People want to connect on a personal level with other people, and if other people know that they make 50% more or 50% less than you, they will (by and large) treat you differently, even if subconsciously.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  It's asking for trouble along several axes. There is the social aspect. If people you know and interact with on a daily basis know your income, they'll preload their assumptions about your money management skills into every interaction. Sometimes they'll ask for money and resent you if you decline, even though they probably have no idea what kind of liabilities you're facing (and it's reasonable to keep those private too). They'll judge all of your choices against your income; if you buy something that's a bit of a stretch, like a nicer car, you may get lectured on, but you'll definitely get judged on, how you can't really afford that, or how you're terrible at managing your income, etc. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Publicized salary information makes personal interactions more difficult all around. It can make business more difficult. Consider a world where everyone's salary is public, and anyone selling you a product can look up your income and demand certain payment based on a percentage of your income. It'd be a lot harder to negotiate or deal with salespeople this way. "Salary history" is one of the HR department's great tools for screwing over employees; instead of paying you a salary commensurate with the value you bring to the company, they just have to offer a marginal bump. Again, it neuters negotiation, since they know your hand ahead of time. There can be legal ramifications. Consider a situation where you get in a car accident, exchange insurance information, and the other party looks up your salary online and discovers that you make enough to be worth bringing to court. Even if he'd lose the case, and even if it's small claims, it'd cost you time and money in transportation, time off, etc. If it's not small claims, it'd cost you legal fees too. The claimant would anticipate that your lawyer would recommend a settlement and may sue even if his prospects were poor; since your income information would be public, said lawyers would take your case on contingency, since you have enough money to be worth trying to wring out. The old saying "good fences make good neighbors" applies and can be generalized as "a reasonable amount of privacy keeps people civil" (it needn't refer exclusively to fences). Your personal affairs can and should stay personal.
  - x43b 11y ago
    Cookiecaper "Government worker salaries are not usual directly associated with the names of the people receiving them; the classifications are public, but you can't just type in "my neighbor salary" in Google and see what they make;" Not google, but not much more work. If you know their name you do not need to know their classification. http://php.app.com/fed_employees14/search.php http://php.app.com/fed_employees14/search.php
cdubzzz 11y ago
Yeah, perfectly understandable. I'm sure Buffer's intention here is largely to attract people who will fit the environment they want to foster and this draws a pretty hard line. And it is a double-edged sword - an employee could look at that formula after a year and think, "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that." I also can't even imagine what it would be like trying to implement such a policy if it weren't in place from the start, hah.
- k-mcgrady 11y ago
  >> " I'm sure Buffer's intention here is largely to attract people who will fit the environment they want to foster and this draws a pretty hard line." Good point.
- danfarrelly 11y ago
  "an employee could look at that formula after a year and think, "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that."" The good part about this is that the formula and system is open to change and will continue to evolve as we find ways that it could be working better for us. We're actually in the midst of some changes right now that have and will really help the formula work in the coming months & years.
  - cdubzzz 11y ago
    Yeah, I'm not at all surprised about that based on what this degree of openness says about the culture of Buffer. Keep it up. I also have to think balancing such a formula is a very interesting challenge. On the one hand you don't want it so hard coded that there is no wiggle room, but on the other a higher fudge factor can really change the type of applicants that come along.
- nightski 11y ago
  "Well, I know where I am now and where I could be in two years, no reason to stay here for that." I am self employed now but honestly this could be said of any company - public salary formula or not.

tdees40 11y ago

In Norway everyone's income is public. I'd be curious to hear from any Norwegians how this works out in practice.