10 ms·

Is Kickstarter covering up a scam? An open letter to CEO Yancey Strickler

351 points by nallerooth 11y ago

ChrisGranger 11y ago
I was surprised to learn that the familiar "Kickstarter Staff Pick" badge can be used by any project and is sometimes an outright lie. That's ridiculously deceptive.
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  That's very odd. Searching for "Kickstarter Staff Pick" seems to indicate that it actually is what it says it is. On the search page, https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/recommended https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/recommended , Staff Picks is a search criteria and has considerably less projects than "Everything". If their position is that anyone can use the image, why not take it a step further? Make a new badge, like "Kickstarter Verified Technology" or worse.
  - tedunangst 11y ago
    The staffer appears to have misinterpreted the question. As I understand it, there are staff picks, but this doesn't result in getting badged automatically. Some projects elect to display a badge themselves. That's what the answer says. It's not responsive to the question of fake badges. Possibly it's a canned answer to "why isn't my staff pick project showing a badge?"
- mcintyre1994 11y ago
  This is ridiculous. Their home page has a 'Staff Picks' section currently showing 15 projects, 7 of them have that badge visible in their image there. It's stupidly misleading not to expect people to make that connection.
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  I don't understand how that isn't a huge trademark issue for kickstarter, since american trademarks are on the base of "protect it or lose it". Edit: To make it clear, here are some quotes from http://www.inta.org/TrademarkBasics/FactSheets/Pages/LossofTrademarkRightsFactSheet.aspx http://www.inta.org/TrademarkBasics/FactSheets/Pages/LossofT... : "it is possible to lose rights in a mark by allowing third parties to use the mark without controlling how it is used. This can include failing to control the nature and quality of the goods and/or services offered under the mark by the third party." "improper use by a trademark owner or third parties also may result in the loss of trademark rights. A trademark should not be used in a manner that strips its significance as an indicator of the source of goods and/or services." (emphasis mine)
  - DanBC 11y ago
    You can only use it within the context of kickstarter projects. You can't use it if your crowdfunded project is not on kickstarter.
    - ILIKEPONIES 11y ago
      I know someone who is currently running a Kickstarter and who is also a 'Staff Pick.' As far as I understand, some (not all) campaigns receive an email at some point to congratulate them on being named a 'Staff Pick.' The email isn't 100% clear as to what being named a SP means. KS actually discourages the campaigns from putting up a badge, but many of the projects do anyway. There is little to no policing. So, my guess is that some projects use the badge regardless of whether or not they're a SP. Personally, I think they should formalize the process and bop the heads of those that are misrepresenting themselves.
  - colinbartlett 11y ago
    The quote from Kickstarter, according to the author: "[The graphic] is not an official Kickstarter badge, nor is the badge granted by Kickstarter" Note that this doesn't necessarily say "we are okay with people using this." In fact, the quote could easily have gone on to say "people who use this are violating our trademark and we intend to pursue removal".
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    >american trademarks are on the base of "protect it or lose it" // Pertinent to the supposed "failure to police" please cite where that is in the USC, thanks. You have a trademark by virtue of use. You have a registered trademark by virtue of paying for the registration and continued payment of renewal fees. >To help avoid such adverse consequences, the trademark owner should police its mark by enforcing [...] While some courts have determined that a trademark owner need not necessarily prosecute every infringing third-party use of its mark, such third-party uses can still affect the distinctiveness of the mark in the mind of the public. [...] Sounds like they think you should rather than they determine that there's an actual "failure to police" clause in the USC. An additional aspect is that you can offer a license to any user you come across. So if "failure to police" were true you still would not need to prosecute people for infringements in order to retain the mark provided they agreed to your [as liberal as you like] license terms.
- pmontra 11y ago
  I don't understand why KS created that badge if it's self appointed and doesn't mean that the staff actually endorsed the project somehow. It looks like customer deception now, both from projects and KS.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
raesene4 11y ago
I'd suggest that unfortunately the incentives for sites like Kickstarter/Indiegogo/GoFundMe etc are to get as many projects successfully funded as possible that that predicates against rigorous scrutiny of them and exclusion of dubious projects. There have now been quite a few examples of crowd-funded projects that just haven't delivered and never will (Eyez was a good early example https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyeztm-by-zioneyez-hd-video-recording-glasses-for https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyeztm-by-zion... $343,000 taken in with nothing to show for it)
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  To be fair, Kickstarter et al. are not shops. We had this discussion many times over the year, the point of crowdfunding was to invest in potentially interesting ideas, and not to have a preordering venue. So the risk of a project not delivering was always there, a part of the game. But when Kickstarter was busy explaining people they're not a preorder store, startups and VCs figured out that crowdfunding is an excellent marketing channel, so I don't know if anyone is sure what the whole concept is supposed to be anymore. EDIT: to commenters responding - fair enough. There's no equity so technically it's not investing. Maybe "patronage" is a better word.
  - raesene5 11y ago
    Likening Kickstarter to an investment has always concerned me. Investment implies a return if the idea is successful and (as you can see from Oculus Rift) early kickstarter backers didn't get any of the very large payout that Oculus got when the were bought by Facebook. We're starting to see that idea come about with platforms like https://www.seedrs.com/ https://www.seedrs.com/ where if it goes swimingly the backers do well out of it, which kind of offsets the risk. I think the problem with standard crowd-funding is the people doing the project obviously have an interest in downplaying the risks, and the platform does too, so with no regulation that's exactly what'll happen, and then we get a lot of very late, underdelivering projects which will sour people on the whole concept.
  - aikah 11y ago
    > To be fair, Kickstarter et al. are not shops "shops" doesn't mean anything. Ultimately it will be for a judge to decide the rights and the duties of Kickstarter... or the supreme court. You sound like Uber when they say "we're not a taxi company". It's not up to them to decide what they are and cherry pick which law to follow. > the point of crowdfunding was to invest in potentially interesting ideas Where is the equity? Kickstarter is certainly not an investment plateform technically.
melling 11y ago
This story had 7 points and was #3 on HN 7 minutes ago, then it dropped 20 spots. Are people flagging it? Anyway, the Kickstarter project looks impressive. There's an entire company built around it? If it's a fraud, it ends at 8am EST.
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  It'd look that way, but perhaps Kickstarter incurs a penalty automatically? Or maybe it's the crappy headline which sounds clickbaity. Maybe the author should have used something solid, like "Kickstarter is promoting scam company with fake holograph". The video they have looks like it could have cost a fair bit of coin itself. And they claim to have a CFO, CTO, and CEO, already? Their "Our Story" page [1] says they've been around a couple years and have 20 people. So a $250K campaign gets them what, another 6 weeks' runway? It's gotta be for the press value. 1: http://www.hplustech.com/our-story/ http://www.hplustech.com/our-story/
  - xgbi 11y ago
    I believe the product to be actually real, and that it will ship to the customers. So in that sense, the project is not a scam, the users will get something out of it. You can see people playing with the device in their Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/132837598 https://vimeo.com/132837598 I would be willing to bet the price paid is actually a reasonable price for all the custom-made components that the device is made of. On the other hand, the product if far from something I'd call an holographic display, so it's in a bit of a gray area for a Kickstarter, especially since they CGI'd the first trailer with faked 3D views.
    - MichaelGG 11y ago
      Sure. So Kickstarter should pause it, and make sure all backers understand that the previous information was misleading, and be allowed to see proper new shots of what it actually is. Also they need to clarify if it's actually a Staff Pick.
    - zamalek 11y ago
alvarosm 11y ago
Kickstarter will promote anything that has the chance to make it big. Their only goal is to make sure most pledged dollars go towards ultimately funded projects, and that hype and funding grow in them to the maximum extent possible. Documentaries and so on, that's another story, I guess their cash cow are non-art projects while what they enjoy are art projects. So don't expect a tech project to undergo minimally rigorous analysis if it looks like it will make it big. They only question your project to the extent it could be a waste of real estate in their website for not getting funded.
elcct 11y ago
To be fair, why don't you let people spend money how they want? People should have a right to be fooled if they wish so...
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Blatantly lying to people by showing fake products and fake badges hardly counts as "if they wish".
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    It's funny how people talk about voluntary trade when the whole point of advertising and marketing is to remove the 'voluntary' part.
    - hvs 11y ago
      The "whole point" of advertising isn't to remove the voluntary part of trade. It's to improve discoverability and to encourage you to buy. At no point does it compel you to buy.
      - danneu 11y ago
        > At no point does it compel you to buy. What? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising It's a little more than brand names on bill boards.
        oldmanjay 11y ago
        compel: force or oblige (someone) to do something. nope, that's not what happens. really, really, really, really wanting something is not the same as being forced to buy it. it's not even close, in fact, even if the desire is super strong. the inability to make this distinction is not a useful argument, it is a personal failing.
empressplay 11y ago
It's a little strange that they share their offices with an investment bank? https://www.bnymellon.com/ca/en/index.jsp#ir/offices https://www.bnymellon.com/ca/en/index.jsp#ir/offices
- Shivetya 11y ago
  Generic shared space office building, I would be more interested if other Kickstarter groups had offices there or members of the Kickstarter in question were part of companies before their current.
- chollida1 11y ago
  Not really, very few investment houses or banks own their own real estate anymore. They all learned that after going public the next step to getting large payouts was to sell their real estate to management companies or REIT's. Or less cynically, they follow Joel Spolsky's idea of focusing on your core competence and out source the rest to others.
bhouston 11y ago
To be clear, this device costs a couple million of VC to create. This Kickstarter is a market launch activity and not raising useful money for this project.
- hahainternet 11y ago
  This device is 4 inclined planes and a screen. God I wish I could get a couple million in VC for this shit.
- daturkel 11y ago
  Is that allowed on Kickstarter? Kind of defeats the purpose...
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Sort of, but that's what is happening now. My friends did a successful Kickstarter campaign of a hardware product and I know first-hand that the idea came from their investors and it was done purely for market research. The Kickstarter event was pretty much break-even effort for my friends. VCs seem to have figured out that crowdfunding is a cheap way of checking if a company is worth further investments, while at the same time giving it some marketing boost.
  - sbarre 11y ago
    Lots of Kickstarter projects are "proof of interest" ventures. If you make your target, it triggers additional funding you've pre-negotiated.. I don't see how it's a problem in general (not talking about this particular KS here) since it's a useful tool for showing investors that enough people are willing to pay for your product. Doppler Labs' recent KS for "Here Active Listening" closed successfully last week with $635k in funding, and they just announced a $17M series B funding round this week. I'd have to assume these two events are related, and as a backer of the KS campaign, I'm actually happy to see this, since it means the product probably won't be a one-off, and they will continue to update the software post-release, etc..
    - daturkel 11y ago
yitchelle 11y ago
Isn't the startup mantra "fake it til you make it"? \sarcasm.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Of some, definitely, with the meaning of "make it" not related to making a working product.
aikah 11y ago
For those who don't know Joanie Lemercier, he is a famous artist that have been working with unusual displays,projections and hollograms for the last 15 years. I think he should be taken very seriously by anybody who is willing to pay for Holus. 493 backers have paid 600$ in average for something they might not expect. If you have a friend that backed that project, at least make him read the article. If he still want to spend money on this so be it.
braythwayt 11y ago
I think what we’re seeing here is that well-funded projects get a “most favoured nation” pass to flout the already weak oversight that Kickstarter exercises. A true indie shop running a crowd-funding campaign has very little money to buy marketing and PR, so they’re essentially consuming Kickstarter’s brand and traffic. Whereas, some of these new-breed well-heeled campaigns spend more money on marketing than the campaign is designed to raise. These campaigns are not consuming Kickstarter’s traffic and brand, they’re contributing to it. And whatever we might think of using words like “hologram” for this magic pixie-dust product, the odds are reasonable that something will ship to the backers, so Kickstarter’s reputation is less likely to be tarnished by a VC-backed campaign than by a truly independent project where they don’t have the budget to hire an experienced team. So from Kickstarter’s perspective, well-funded “crowd-funding” campaigns that are actually marketing stunts is very good business, and I predict they are going to shift more and more of their emphasis this way, just as consumer-facing companies often gradually shift to becoming enterprise-facing companies. As a prospective backer, this is far less attractive to me, so I am not advocating for this shift. But I do believe it is happening, and I believe that this explains why Kickstarter seem to have done little more than send an email saying, “Hey, bro, cut out the CGI, this gadfly is turning into an embarrassment for both of us. And good job, please bring us more campaigns, we love doing business with you.” p.s. I’m curious as hell about their pricing model. I wonder if VCs can secretly negotiate lower fees than indies.
gregjwild 11y ago
While Kickstarter clearly need to get sharper about identifying fraudulent pitches, I think as a whole Kickstarter is a "hate the player, not the game".
Grue3 11y ago
A scam? On Kickstarter? You don't say! There are a ton of those, and some of them have bigger budgets than this thing. Like the infamous Arist coffee machine [1]. [1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/236195807/arist-brews-coffee-like-the-best-baristas-anytime https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/236195807/arist-brews-c...
- draugadrotten 11y ago
  ...or the SmartMaker scam by Harold F. Timmis and Dimitri Albino, which kickstarter and indiegogo didn't stop. (1,2) [1] http://kicksucker2013.blogspot.com/2014/09/be-maker-smartmakers-harold-f-timmis.html http://kicksucker2013.blogspot.com/2014/09/be-maker-smartmak... [2] http://www.mathias-wilhelm.de/arduino/reviews/smartmaker/ http://www.mathias-wilhelm.de/arduino/reviews/smartmaker/
swozey 11y ago
I quit Kickstarter after that Potato Salad kickstarter crap got popular. It lost all legitimacy to me at that point. I can't believe more people didn't put up a fuss.
snarfy 11y ago
It reminds me of this old video game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Traveler_%28video_game%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Traveler_%28video_game%29
pbhjpbhj 11y ago
The device proper appears to have some major flaws - https://vimeo.com/133052667 https://vimeo.com/133052667. It is deceptive at 3m in that video the co-founder says "we try to bring this holographic experience to families" - weasel words for sure. The word experience is there in anticipation of a future claim of fraud. He continues saying "most of the holographic displays and similar device, products, are focussed on [...]". At 4:02 you can see that the system uses 4 separate images projected and is not 3D holography. In views on an angle you can see the image doesn't wrap (eg 2:51). Flaws to my mind include the massive opaque bezel and the poor viewing position - all viewers need to be the same height. In the other use videos you can see people craning to sit at the same height as the device - seems adults and children or different height people of any age would struggle to use this together. Also you can't view from above.
JacobEdelman 11y ago
I wouldn't have much hope that its going to be addressed. I've been following another kickstarter scam, https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/181239886/jaesa/description https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/181239886/jaesa/descrip..., promising legitimate AI far better than anything that actually exists that appears to be little more than ELIZA plus ads. Its had over 50k USD in funding and is 9 days away from its one year funding anniversery. Obviosly, no real progress towards an AI has been made but the group has managed to keep the scam, recently having claimed to be acquired by on of their backers who is in talks with multiple investors for funding " to the level of a global competitor". Another example was the Goblins Comics board game, which featured the web comic writer teaming up with a supposed board game maker who than ran away with the money, scamming the board game maker and the comic writer. See more at the second to last post here on the writers continued attempts to help his backers despite being scammed by the board game maker: http://www.goblinscomic.org/the-blog/ http://www.goblinscomic.org/the-blog/
jobigoud 11y ago
I'm still very confused about the staff pick badge… Is there anyone here that ran a campaign that could confirm? There are numerous articles dedicated to maximize one's chances to be a staff pick, and numerous advantages like being in the newsletter, promoted on their social network accounts, etc. That would mean that there really is a staff pick category with hand-picked projects, but that the badge itself can be added by any campaign. Is this really true? I need more evidence, it doesn't seem reasonable. edit: found some more info about it from a campaigner http://stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter-lesson-140-the-kickstarter-staff-pick/ http://stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter-lesson-140-the-kickst.... It does seem that being a staff pick means that one staff member flagged the project, and the badge icon usage is largely unrelated.
- braythwayt 11y ago
  What we know to be the case is this: Kickstarter does feature some campaigns as its staff picks, Kickstarter does notify campaigns when Kickstarter selects them as a staff pick, but Kickstarter will not admit that this particular project is abusing the staff pick appellation, and Kickstarter is refusing to say anything that could be interpreted as agreeing that this campaign engaged in unethical behaviour. My personal conclusion is this: This project gets a free pass. There is no evidence that any arbitrary project can give itself the badge and not get censured by Kickstarter.
phkahler 11y ago
"Holus is a 2D display based on “Pepper’s Ghost“. The reflected image has no depth, and has nothing to do with the term hologram. " Wrong and Right. The reflected image will have depth and can be viewed from a (small) range of angles. Just like a reflection in a mirror is actually 3d. But NO, this has nothing to do with holography as stated.
- Udo 11y ago
  > The reflected image will have depth and can be viewed from a (small) range of angles. Just like a reflection in a mirror is actually 3d. Isn't that the same as saying that a drawing on a sheet of paper is actually 3D because you can change the viewing angle? At least when viewing a real 3D object through a mirror you could potentially get more information by changing your viewing angle. This project, however, appears to be more akin to viewing a flat screen through a reflective surface.
  - phkahler 11y ago
    >> Udo 3 hours ago > The reflected image will have depth and can be viewed from a (small) range of angles. Just like a reflection in a mirror is actually 3d. Isn't that the same as saying that a drawing on a sheet of paper is actually 3D because you can change the viewing angle? At least when viewing a real 3D object through a mirror you could potentially get more information by changing your viewing angle. This project, however, appears to be more akin to viewing a flat screen through a reflective surface. Oh well that's different then. TFA likened it to an illusion that reflected an object. If that object is an LCD panel then no it's not 3d.
norea-armozel 11y ago
This is why I've never pledged any money on Kickstarter or any equivalent site. It's too easy to make something look too good to be true in an age of CGI and clever pitches. I'm all for micro-financing, but the way I see sites like Kickstarter as just another way to get around the known regulations for financing (some which seem dumb, but some that are very effective imo). If folks really want to help creators and artists make cool stuff then I suggest do your homework and give directly to those people (and avoid Kickstarter).
zodPod 11y ago
Sorry, but I can't help but chuckle. The low-information populous just spent $600 a pop on this thing because the pictures were pretty? Good for them. I hope they enjoy their angled pyramidal screen. Someone probably shared it on facebook, their friends clicked it, looked at the pictures and clicked to back them then clicked share. Just like seems to be the norm with satirical stories anymore.
- kjs3 11y ago
  $600 seems above the level of impulse buy, but you may be on to something.
binoyxj 11y ago
The Kickstarter bubble is finally starting to burst, for better or worse. That’s a bit troubling for the creative and tech community. Bad press due to these failures/ scams is a scary thing. I had personally written to KS about another scam that unfolded right in front of eyes, but they didn't respond. I even pinged the founders on Twitter but they didn't care a bit. So much for trusting this system.
typicalrunt 11y ago
I got the chance to play with Holus last month during one of H+'s open houses. The unit itself is pretty neat and the holograms (yes, they are just Pepper's Ghost) is of good resolution. The use of iPhones and iPads to control the perspective is really cool, but still glitchy. However, my friends and I found no practical non-game application of the technology yet; maybe this is the case with anything new, where it answers a question nobody has yet to ask. I do agree with the OP that the images in the KS campaign aren't real (or even possible). The Holus simply doesn't look like that and I wouldn't be comfortable if my company was promising images in a KS campaign like that. At the very least, H+ should have added an asterisk on each image that said "CGI rendered" or something to that effect to inform potential backers.
eugeneross 11y ago
I don't know man. No one got this upset with the Potato Salad kickstarter.
dlublin 11y ago
It's also pretty awful to see places like Wired, Tech Crunch, and Engadget had blindly reposted the PR clickbait material without any scrutiny. Even when those that did eventually 'update' their article it was tacked on as a minor note, no mention that the photos and video were digitally altered. A real expose from any of these publications would've had enough force Kickstarter to action.
joanielemercier 11y ago
Finally received a response from Kickstarter's CEO: http://joanielemercier.com/is_kickstarter_covering_up_a_scam/?fb_comment_id=880462758667910_881188285262024#f252aeb9c8 http://joanielemercier.com/is_kickstarter_covering_up_a_scam...
kwhitefoot 11y ago
I don't know if they cover up scams but they do not provide any good means for people to voice concerns. I looked at a project for a portable wind charger (on Kickstarter I think) and the claims that were made for it were rather implausible so I did a few simple calculations and sent a message to the promoter. All I got back was some well meaning waffle. And in this case I don't think they were trying to cheat anyone, they just weren't competent. If anyone is interested I'll try to remember which project it was.
- frogpelt 11y ago
  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skajaquoda/trinity-the-portable-wind-turbine-power-station https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skajaquoda/trinity-the-... Is this it?
joanielemercier 11y ago
some update on the holoscam. http://joanielemercier.com/kickstarter_is_broken/ http://joanielemercier.com/kickstarter_is_broken/
sableraph 11y ago
Yancey Strickler answered. Here's my response: https://medium.com/@sableraph/kickstarter-failed-us-e7b6d98f2342 https://medium.com/@sableraph/kickstarter-failed-us-e7b6d98f...

351 points by nallerooth 11y ago

I was surprised to learn that the familiar "Kickstarter Staff Pick" badge can be used by any project and is sometimes an outright lie. That's ridiculously deceptive.

MichaelGG 11y ago
That's very odd. Searching for "Kickstarter Staff Pick" seems to indicate that it actually is what it says it is. On the search page, https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/recommended https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/recommended , Staff Picks is a search criteria and has considerably less projects than "Everything". If their position is that anyone can use the image, why not take it a step further? Make a new badge, like "Kickstarter Verified Technology" or worse.
- tedunangst 11y ago
  The staffer appears to have misinterpreted the question. As I understand it, there are staff picks, but this doesn't result in getting badged automatically. Some projects elect to display a badge themselves. That's what the answer says. It's not responsive to the question of fake badges. Possibly it's a canned answer to "why isn't my staff pick project showing a badge?"
mcintyre1994 11y ago
This is ridiculous. Their home page has a 'Staff Picks' section currently showing 15 projects, 7 of them have that badge visible in their image there. It's stupidly misleading not to expect people to make that connection.
Mithaldu 11y ago
I don't understand how that isn't a huge trademark issue for kickstarter, since american trademarks are on the base of "protect it or lose it". Edit: To make it clear, here are some quotes from http://www.inta.org/TrademarkBasics/FactSheets/Pages/LossofTrademarkRightsFactSheet.aspx http://www.inta.org/TrademarkBasics/FactSheets/Pages/LossofT... : "it is possible to lose rights in a mark by allowing third parties to use the mark without controlling how it is used. This can include failing to control the nature and quality of the goods and/or services offered under the mark by the third party." "improper use by a trademark owner or third parties also may result in the loss of trademark rights. A trademark should not be used in a manner that strips its significance as an indicator of the source of goods and/or services." (emphasis mine)
- DanBC 11y ago
  You can only use it within the context of kickstarter projects. You can't use it if your crowdfunded project is not on kickstarter.
  - ILIKEPONIES 11y ago
    I know someone who is currently running a Kickstarter and who is also a 'Staff Pick.' As far as I understand, some (not all) campaigns receive an email at some point to congratulate them on being named a 'Staff Pick.' The email isn't 100% clear as to what being named a SP means. KS actually discourages the campaigns from putting up a badge, but many of the projects do anyway. There is little to no policing. So, my guess is that some projects use the badge regardless of whether or not they're a SP. Personally, I think they should formalize the process and bop the heads of those that are misrepresenting themselves.
- colinbartlett 11y ago
  The quote from Kickstarter, according to the author: "[The graphic] is not an official Kickstarter badge, nor is the badge granted by Kickstarter" Note that this doesn't necessarily say "we are okay with people using this." In fact, the quote could easily have gone on to say "people who use this are violating our trademark and we intend to pursue removal".
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  >american trademarks are on the base of "protect it or lose it" // Pertinent to the supposed "failure to police" please cite where that is in the USC, thanks. You have a trademark by virtue of use. You have a registered trademark by virtue of paying for the registration and continued payment of renewal fees. >To help avoid such adverse consequences, the trademark owner should police its mark by enforcing [...] While some courts have determined that a trademark owner need not necessarily prosecute every infringing third-party use of its mark, such third-party uses can still affect the distinctiveness of the mark in the mind of the public. [...] Sounds like they think you should rather than they determine that there's an actual "failure to police" clause in the USC. An additional aspect is that you can offer a license to any user you come across. So if "failure to police" were true you still would not need to prosecute people for infringements in order to retain the mark provided they agreed to your [as liberal as you like] license terms.
pmontra 11y ago
I don't understand why KS created that badge if it's self appointed and doesn't mean that the staff actually endorsed the project somehow. It looks like customer deception now, both from projects and KS.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

raesene4 11y ago

I'd suggest that unfortunately the incentives for sites like Kickstarter/Indiegogo/GoFundMe etc are to get as many projects successfully funded as possible that that predicates against rigorous scrutiny of them and exclusion of dubious projects. There have now been quite a few examples of crowd-funded projects that just haven't delivered and never will (Eyez was a good early example https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyeztm-by-zioneyez-hd-video-recording-glasses-for https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyeztm-by-zion... $343,000 taken in with nothing to show for it)

TeMPOraL 11y ago
To be fair, Kickstarter et al. are not shops. We had this discussion many times over the year, the point of crowdfunding was to invest in potentially interesting ideas, and not to have a preordering venue. So the risk of a project not delivering was always there, a part of the game. But when Kickstarter was busy explaining people they're not a preorder store, startups and VCs figured out that crowdfunding is an excellent marketing channel, so I don't know if anyone is sure what the whole concept is supposed to be anymore. EDIT: to commenters responding - fair enough. There's no equity so technically it's not investing. Maybe "patronage" is a better word.
- raesene5 11y ago
  Likening Kickstarter to an investment has always concerned me. Investment implies a return if the idea is successful and (as you can see from Oculus Rift) early kickstarter backers didn't get any of the very large payout that Oculus got when the were bought by Facebook. We're starting to see that idea come about with platforms like https://www.seedrs.com/ https://www.seedrs.com/ where if it goes swimingly the backers do well out of it, which kind of offsets the risk. I think the problem with standard crowd-funding is the people doing the project obviously have an interest in downplaying the risks, and the platform does too, so with no regulation that's exactly what'll happen, and then we get a lot of very late, underdelivering projects which will sour people on the whole concept.
- aikah 11y ago
  > To be fair, Kickstarter et al. are not shops "shops" doesn't mean anything. Ultimately it will be for a judge to decide the rights and the duties of Kickstarter... or the supreme court. You sound like Uber when they say "we're not a taxi company". It's not up to them to decide what they are and cherry pick which law to follow. > the point of crowdfunding was to invest in potentially interesting ideas Where is the equity? Kickstarter is certainly not an investment plateform technically.

melling 11y ago

This story had 7 points and was #3 on HN 7 minutes ago, then it dropped 20 spots. Are people flagging it? Anyway, the Kickstarter project looks impressive. There's an entire company built around it? If it's a fraud, it ends at 8am EST.

MichaelGG 11y ago
It'd look that way, but perhaps Kickstarter incurs a penalty automatically? Or maybe it's the crappy headline which sounds clickbaity. Maybe the author should have used something solid, like "Kickstarter is promoting scam company with fake holograph". The video they have looks like it could have cost a fair bit of coin itself. And they claim to have a CFO, CTO, and CEO, already? Their "Our Story" page [1] says they've been around a couple years and have 20 people. So a $250K campaign gets them what, another 6 weeks' runway? It's gotta be for the press value. 1: http://www.hplustech.com/our-story/ http://www.hplustech.com/our-story/
- xgbi 11y ago
  I believe the product to be actually real, and that it will ship to the customers. So in that sense, the project is not a scam, the users will get something out of it. You can see people playing with the device in their Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/132837598 https://vimeo.com/132837598 I would be willing to bet the price paid is actually a reasonable price for all the custom-made components that the device is made of. On the other hand, the product if far from something I'd call an holographic display, so it's in a bit of a gray area for a Kickstarter, especially since they CGI'd the first trailer with faked 3D views.
  - MichaelGG 11y ago
    Sure. So Kickstarter should pause it, and make sure all backers understand that the previous information was misleading, and be allowed to see proper new shots of what it actually is. Also they need to clarify if it's actually a Staff Pick.
  - zamalek 11y ago

alvarosm 11y ago

Kickstarter will promote anything that has the chance to make it big. Their only goal is to make sure most pledged dollars go towards ultimately funded projects, and that hype and funding grow in them to the maximum extent possible. Documentaries and so on, that's another story, I guess their cash cow are non-art projects while what they enjoy are art projects. So don't expect a tech project to undergo minimally rigorous analysis if it looks like it will make it big. They only question your project to the extent it could be a waste of real estate in their website for not getting funded.

elcct 11y ago

To be fair, why don't you let people spend money how they want? People should have a right to be fooled if they wish so...

MichaelGG 11y ago
Blatantly lying to people by showing fake products and fake badges hardly counts as "if they wish".
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  It's funny how people talk about voluntary trade when the whole point of advertising and marketing is to remove the 'voluntary' part.
  - hvs 11y ago
    The "whole point" of advertising isn't to remove the voluntary part of trade. It's to improve discoverability and to encourage you to buy. At no point does it compel you to buy.
    - danneu 11y ago
      > At no point does it compel you to buy. What? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising It's a little more than brand names on bill boards.
      - oldmanjay 11y ago
        compel: force or oblige (someone) to do something. nope, that's not what happens. really, really, really, really wanting something is not the same as being forced to buy it. it's not even close, in fact, even if the desire is super strong. the inability to make this distinction is not a useful argument, it is a personal failing.

empressplay 11y ago

It's a little strange that they share their offices with an investment bank? https://www.bnymellon.com/ca/en/index.jsp#ir/offices https://www.bnymellon.com/ca/en/index.jsp#ir/offices

Shivetya 11y ago
Generic shared space office building, I would be more interested if other Kickstarter groups had offices there or members of the Kickstarter in question were part of companies before their current.
chollida1 11y ago
Not really, very few investment houses or banks own their own real estate anymore. They all learned that after going public the next step to getting large payouts was to sell their real estate to management companies or REIT's. Or less cynically, they follow Joel Spolsky's idea of focusing on your core competence and out source the rest to others.

bhouston 11y ago

To be clear, this device costs a couple million of VC to create. This Kickstarter is a market launch activity and not raising useful money for this project.

hahainternet 11y ago
This device is 4 inclined planes and a screen. God I wish I could get a couple million in VC for this shit.
daturkel 11y ago
Is that allowed on Kickstarter? Kind of defeats the purpose...
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Sort of, but that's what is happening now. My friends did a successful Kickstarter campaign of a hardware product and I know first-hand that the idea came from their investors and it was done purely for market research. The Kickstarter event was pretty much break-even effort for my friends. VCs seem to have figured out that crowdfunding is a cheap way of checking if a company is worth further investments, while at the same time giving it some marketing boost.
- sbarre 11y ago
  Lots of Kickstarter projects are "proof of interest" ventures. If you make your target, it triggers additional funding you've pre-negotiated.. I don't see how it's a problem in general (not talking about this particular KS here) since it's a useful tool for showing investors that enough people are willing to pay for your product. Doppler Labs' recent KS for "Here Active Listening" closed successfully last week with $635k in funding, and they just announced a $17M series B funding round this week. I'd have to assume these two events are related, and as a backer of the KS campaign, I'm actually happy to see this, since it means the product probably won't be a one-off, and they will continue to update the software post-release, etc..
  - daturkel 11y ago

yitchelle 11y ago

Isn't the startup mantra "fake it til you make it"? \sarcasm.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
Of some, definitely, with the meaning of "make it" not related to making a working product.

aikah 11y ago

For those who don't know Joanie Lemercier, he is a famous artist that have been working with unusual displays,projections and hollograms for the last 15 years. I think he should be taken very seriously by anybody who is willing to pay for Holus. 493 backers have paid 600$ in average for something they might not expect. If you have a friend that backed that project, at least make him read the article. If he still want to spend money on this so be it.

braythwayt 11y ago

I think what we’re seeing here is that well-funded projects get a “most favoured nation” pass to flout the already weak oversight that Kickstarter exercises. A true indie shop running a crowd-funding campaign has very little money to buy marketing and PR, so they’re essentially consuming Kickstarter’s brand and traffic. Whereas, some of these new-breed well-heeled campaigns spend more money on marketing than the campaign is designed to raise. These campaigns are not consuming Kickstarter’s traffic and brand, they’re contributing to it. And whatever we might think of using words like “hologram” for this magic pixie-dust product, the odds are reasonable that something will ship to the backers, so Kickstarter’s reputation is less likely to be tarnished by a VC-backed campaign than by a truly independent project where they don’t have the budget to hire an experienced team. So from Kickstarter’s perspective, well-funded “crowd-funding” campaigns that are actually marketing stunts is very good business, and I predict they are going to shift more and more of their emphasis this way, just as consumer-facing companies often gradually shift to becoming enterprise-facing companies. As a prospective backer, this is far less attractive to me, so I am not advocating for this shift. But I do believe it is happening, and I believe that this explains why Kickstarter seem to have done little more than send an email saying, “Hey, bro, cut out the CGI, this gadfly is turning into an embarrassment for both of us. And good job, please bring us more campaigns, we love doing business with you.” p.s. I’m curious as hell about their pricing model. I wonder if VCs can secretly negotiate lower fees than indies.

gregjwild 11y ago

While Kickstarter clearly need to get sharper about identifying fraudulent pitches, I think as a whole Kickstarter is a "hate the player, not the game".

Grue3 11y ago

A scam? On Kickstarter? You don't say! There are a ton of those, and some of them have bigger budgets than this thing. Like the infamous Arist coffee machine [1]. [1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/236195807/arist-brews-coffee-like-the-best-baristas-anytime https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/236195807/arist-brews-c...

draugadrotten 11y ago
...or the SmartMaker scam by Harold F. Timmis and Dimitri Albino, which kickstarter and indiegogo didn't stop. (1,2) [1] http://kicksucker2013.blogspot.com/2014/09/be-maker-smartmakers-harold-f-timmis.html http://kicksucker2013.blogspot.com/2014/09/be-maker-smartmak... [2] http://www.mathias-wilhelm.de/arduino/reviews/smartmaker/ http://www.mathias-wilhelm.de/arduino/reviews/smartmaker/

swozey 11y ago

I quit Kickstarter after that Potato Salad kickstarter crap got popular. It lost all legitimacy to me at that point. I can't believe more people didn't put up a fuss.

snarfy 11y ago

It reminds me of this old video game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Traveler_%28video_game%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Traveler_%28video_game%29

pbhjpbhj 11y ago

The device proper appears to have some major flaws - https://vimeo.com/133052667 https://vimeo.com/133052667. It is deceptive at 3m in that video the co-founder says "we try to bring this holographic experience to families" - weasel words for sure. The word experience is there in anticipation of a future claim of fraud. He continues saying "most of the holographic displays and similar device, products, are focussed on [...]". At 4:02 you can see that the system uses 4 separate images projected and is not 3D holography. In views on an angle you can see the image doesn't wrap (eg 2:51). Flaws to my mind include the massive opaque bezel and the poor viewing position - all viewers need to be the same height. In the other use videos you can see people craning to sit at the same height as the device - seems adults and children or different height people of any age would struggle to use this together. Also you can't view from above.

JacobEdelman 11y ago

I wouldn't have much hope that its going to be addressed. I've been following another kickstarter scam, https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/181239886/jaesa/description https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/181239886/jaesa/descrip..., promising legitimate AI far better than anything that actually exists that appears to be little more than ELIZA plus ads. Its had over 50k USD in funding and is 9 days away from its one year funding anniversery. Obviosly, no real progress towards an AI has been made but the group has managed to keep the scam, recently having claimed to be acquired by on of their backers who is in talks with multiple investors for funding " to the level of a global competitor". Another example was the Goblins Comics board game, which featured the web comic writer teaming up with a supposed board game maker who than ran away with the money, scamming the board game maker and the comic writer. See more at the second to last post here on the writers continued attempts to help his backers despite being scammed by the board game maker: http://www.goblinscomic.org/the-blog/ http://www.goblinscomic.org/the-blog/

jobigoud 11y ago

I'm still very confused about the staff pick badge… Is there anyone here that ran a campaign that could confirm? There are numerous articles dedicated to maximize one's chances to be a staff pick, and numerous advantages like being in the newsletter, promoted on their social network accounts, etc. That would mean that there really is a staff pick category with hand-picked projects, but that the badge itself can be added by any campaign. Is this really true? I need more evidence, it doesn't seem reasonable. edit: found some more info about it from a campaigner http://stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter-lesson-140-the-kickstarter-staff-pick/ http://stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter-lesson-140-the-kickst.... It does seem that being a staff pick means that one staff member flagged the project, and the badge icon usage is largely unrelated.

braythwayt 11y ago
What we know to be the case is this: Kickstarter does feature some campaigns as its staff picks, Kickstarter does notify campaigns when Kickstarter selects them as a staff pick, but Kickstarter will not admit that this particular project is abusing the staff pick appellation, and Kickstarter is refusing to say anything that could be interpreted as agreeing that this campaign engaged in unethical behaviour. My personal conclusion is this: This project gets a free pass. There is no evidence that any arbitrary project can give itself the badge and not get censured by Kickstarter.

phkahler 11y ago

"Holus is a 2D display based on “Pepper’s Ghost“. The reflected image has no depth, and has nothing to do with the term hologram. " Wrong and Right. The reflected image will have depth and can be viewed from a (small) range of angles. Just like a reflection in a mirror is actually 3d. But NO, this has nothing to do with holography as stated.

Udo 11y ago
> The reflected image will have depth and can be viewed from a (small) range of angles. Just like a reflection in a mirror is actually 3d. Isn't that the same as saying that a drawing on a sheet of paper is actually 3D because you can change the viewing angle? At least when viewing a real 3D object through a mirror you could potentially get more information by changing your viewing angle. This project, however, appears to be more akin to viewing a flat screen through a reflective surface.
- phkahler 11y ago
  >> Udo 3 hours ago > The reflected image will have depth and can be viewed from a (small) range of angles. Just like a reflection in a mirror is actually 3d. Isn't that the same as saying that a drawing on a sheet of paper is actually 3D because you can change the viewing angle? At least when viewing a real 3D object through a mirror you could potentially get more information by changing your viewing angle. This project, however, appears to be more akin to viewing a flat screen through a reflective surface. Oh well that's different then. TFA likened it to an illusion that reflected an object. If that object is an LCD panel then no it's not 3d.

norea-armozel 11y ago

This is why I've never pledged any money on Kickstarter or any equivalent site. It's too easy to make something look too good to be true in an age of CGI and clever pitches. I'm all for micro-financing, but the way I see sites like Kickstarter as just another way to get around the known regulations for financing (some which seem dumb, but some that are very effective imo). If folks really want to help creators and artists make cool stuff then I suggest do your homework and give directly to those people (and avoid Kickstarter).

zodPod 11y ago

Sorry, but I can't help but chuckle. The low-information populous just spent $600 a pop on this thing because the pictures were pretty? Good for them. I hope they enjoy their angled pyramidal screen. Someone probably shared it on facebook, their friends clicked it, looked at the pictures and clicked to back them then clicked share. Just like seems to be the norm with satirical stories anymore.

kjs3 11y ago
$600 seems above the level of impulse buy, but you may be on to something.

binoyxj 11y ago

The Kickstarter bubble is finally starting to burst, for better or worse. That’s a bit troubling for the creative and tech community. Bad press due to these failures/ scams is a scary thing. I had personally written to KS about another scam that unfolded right in front of eyes, but they didn't respond. I even pinged the founders on Twitter but they didn't care a bit. So much for trusting this system.

typicalrunt 11y ago

I got the chance to play with Holus last month during one of H+'s open houses. The unit itself is pretty neat and the holograms (yes, they are just Pepper's Ghost) is of good resolution. The use of iPhones and iPads to control the perspective is really cool, but still glitchy. However, my friends and I found no practical non-game application of the technology yet; maybe this is the case with anything new, where it answers a question nobody has yet to ask. I do agree with the OP that the images in the KS campaign aren't real (or even possible). The Holus simply doesn't look like that and I wouldn't be comfortable if my company was promising images in a KS campaign like that. At the very least, H+ should have added an asterisk on each image that said "CGI rendered" or something to that effect to inform potential backers.

eugeneross 11y ago

I don't know man. No one got this upset with the Potato Salad kickstarter.

dlublin 11y ago

It's also pretty awful to see places like Wired, Tech Crunch, and Engadget had blindly reposted the PR clickbait material without any scrutiny. Even when those that did eventually 'update' their article it was tacked on as a minor note, no mention that the photos and video were digitally altered. A real expose from any of these publications would've had enough force Kickstarter to action.

joanielemercier 11y ago

Finally received a response from Kickstarter's CEO: http://joanielemercier.com/is_kickstarter_covering_up_a_scam/?fb_comment_id=880462758667910_881188285262024#f252aeb9c8 http://joanielemercier.com/is_kickstarter_covering_up_a_scam...

kwhitefoot 11y ago

I don't know if they cover up scams but they do not provide any good means for people to voice concerns. I looked at a project for a portable wind charger (on Kickstarter I think) and the claims that were made for it were rather implausible so I did a few simple calculations and sent a message to the promoter. All I got back was some well meaning waffle. And in this case I don't think they were trying to cheat anyone, they just weren't competent. If anyone is interested I'll try to remember which project it was.

frogpelt 11y ago
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skajaquoda/trinity-the-portable-wind-turbine-power-station https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skajaquoda/trinity-the-... Is this it?

joanielemercier 11y ago

some update on the holoscam. http://joanielemercier.com/kickstarter_is_broken/ http://joanielemercier.com/kickstarter_is_broken/

sableraph 11y ago

Yancey Strickler answered. Here's my response: https://medium.com/@sableraph/kickstarter-failed-us-e7b6d98f2342 https://medium.com/@sableraph/kickstarter-failed-us-e7b6d98f...