6 ms·

I always wonder why people worry about AI when it is so abundantly clear that the real danger is other people and we are just projecting.

by hyperion2010 11y ago

imaginenore 11y ago
Because we're familiar with humans. Most humans don't want to hurt/kill other humans, nor do they have the power to do that on a large scale. We can't say that about an AI. If it decides to exterminate us, there's nothing much we can do.
- espadrine 11y ago
  > If it decides to exterminate us, there's nothing much we can do. That's absurd. No inorganic intelligence ever created rivals ants in their ability to survive on Earth. They are way more energy-efficient, and way smarter in the survivalist sense, than any of them. If ants decide to exterminate us, there's nothing much we can do. Except they wouldn't succeed. But you probably think that we, humans, are much smarter than ants (which is arguable). Yet again, if we decided to exterminate ants, there's nothing much they can do, but we wouldn't succeed. They're too smart for us, and we're too smart for them, creating a situation where annihilation of either is impractical. I'm not sure why people consider inorganic intelligence differently from the way they consider organic intelligence. I wrote a bit about it here: http://espadrine.tumblr.com/post/119471459626/on-inorganic-intelligence http://espadrine.tumblr.com/post/119471459626/on-inorganic-i....
  - darkmighty 11y ago
    The counter argument people usually make against this is that an AI, unlike organic intelligence, will improve itself at an increasing rate. I find this extremely hard to believe. The "equivalent computational power" to hundreds of AI researchers necessary to come up with and improve an AI architecture will not immediately be possessed by an AI. We're talking about difficult mathematics and statistics breakthroughs needed for achieving qualitative improvements, but some think of it as applying a patch. Indeed, creative and mathematical production is the last activity I would expect we'd be able to automate, as it requires the combined knowledge and effort of our best minds. So I find it highly disingenuous to simply assume soon will be one day when the AI vastly inferior to us and the next day it will surpass all our best thinkers to be able to achieve significant qualitative improvements on it's own functioning. Even more questionable is that an algorithm with limited resources might do so well just by improving it's own algorithms. This expectation seems to contradict theorems like the undecidability of the Halting problem, and the diminishing returns we intuitively expect when you fix the hardware resources.
    - simonh 11y ago
      I'm not sure you understand what disingenuous means. Nobody is saying that sub-human level AIs will suddenly surpass humans 'the next day'. That's totally absurd and I really don't know where you get that from. The supposition is that a general purpose AI that is better than a human mind could be better at designing and optimising AIs than a human, then the next genration AI it designs will be even better and that's what sets off the exponential AI intelligence cascade. Imporvements in algorithms can provide startling advances. In some respects the improved efficiency of algorithms has even outstripped the gains from Moore's Law. Personaly I think stong AI like this is pretty far in the future, more than a few decades at least and more likely several generations, but I do think it is eventually likely to happen.
      - darkmighty 11y ago
        Indeed it does not mean what I think it meant, I was thinking the opposite of ingenious. My claim is that, for a fixed hardware, this exponential cascade cannot happen as rapidly as some claim, if it ever happens (whatever 'exponential intelligence' means). We're already improving AI using an intelligence that will only be available to the AIs themselves in a very long time, and yet this rate of improvement is not a scary doomsday rate. Look at hardware for example. We've been using computers to design better computers for a very long time. And yet, the use of computers in this design is effectively limited by some non decisive, local optimizations, like achieving good routing and good electromagnetic compatibility. If you had supercomputers from 30 years ago you could still run the software that designs computers today -- whereas if you followed this "self-improvement" logic we should be using almost all of our computational power right now to achieve more computational power. The problem is that we are still vastly more capable of building theories and designing than computers. By the time an AI gets much better than we currently are at independently improving it's software, it will likely already be seeing diminishing returns; to achieve notable improvement it will need to improve hardware as well, which has the same problem, and an additional one that it's very hard for an AI to independently improve it's own hardware (it requires a global manufacturing supply chain).
        11y ago
- joe_the_user 11y ago
  "Because we're familiar with humans. Most humans don't want to hurt/kill other humans, nor do they have the power to do that on a large scale." Well, large scale mass murder is hardly unknown in human history. The best one can say is that most citizens in times of genocide were just following orders. So most people being supposedly nice isn't really that relevant to the problem of neutral AI that does what ill-intentioned humans tell it. But I would offer the counter-point that we avoid this problem because it shades to all the problems we see and fail to deal with right now. The advance of technology isn't serving many people now and an order where a few people control more and more powerful things seems to continue this. Basically, it's easier to talk about the elephant that might lumber into our living room sometime later than it is to talk about the elephant that's already crushed the couch.
espadrine 11y ago
We evolved from a predator/prey environment. As a result, we have little regard for the life of species we prey upon, or those we consider parasitic. Our fears are mostly built upon the apprehension of a new predator. Had we been a fungus, we would probably fear that keeping the AI running would burn too many resources, leaving us starving. Running out of resources is one thing we humans don't fear much; unlike fungus, we can simply change location.
kylebrown 11y ago
I, for one, welcome our new corporate data center overlords.

I always wonder why people worry about AI when it is so abundantly clear that the real danger is other people and we are just projecting.

imaginenore 11y ago

Because we're familiar with humans. Most humans don't want to hurt/kill other humans, nor do they have the power to do that on a large scale. We can't say that about an AI. If it decides to exterminate us, there's nothing much we can do.

espadrine 11y ago
> If it decides to exterminate us, there's nothing much we can do. That's absurd. No inorganic intelligence ever created rivals ants in their ability to survive on Earth. They are way more energy-efficient, and way smarter in the survivalist sense, than any of them. If ants decide to exterminate us, there's nothing much we can do. Except they wouldn't succeed. But you probably think that we, humans, are much smarter than ants (which is arguable). Yet again, if we decided to exterminate ants, there's nothing much they can do, but we wouldn't succeed. They're too smart for us, and we're too smart for them, creating a situation where annihilation of either is impractical. I'm not sure why people consider inorganic intelligence differently from the way they consider organic intelligence. I wrote a bit about it here: http://espadrine.tumblr.com/post/119471459626/on-inorganic-intelligence http://espadrine.tumblr.com/post/119471459626/on-inorganic-i....
- darkmighty 11y ago
  The counter argument people usually make against this is that an AI, unlike organic intelligence, will improve itself at an increasing rate. I find this extremely hard to believe. The "equivalent computational power" to hundreds of AI researchers necessary to come up with and improve an AI architecture will not immediately be possessed by an AI. We're talking about difficult mathematics and statistics breakthroughs needed for achieving qualitative improvements, but some think of it as applying a patch. Indeed, creative and mathematical production is the last activity I would expect we'd be able to automate, as it requires the combined knowledge and effort of our best minds. So I find it highly disingenuous to simply assume soon will be one day when the AI vastly inferior to us and the next day it will surpass all our best thinkers to be able to achieve significant qualitative improvements on it's own functioning. Even more questionable is that an algorithm with limited resources might do so well just by improving it's own algorithms. This expectation seems to contradict theorems like the undecidability of the Halting problem, and the diminishing returns we intuitively expect when you fix the hardware resources.
  - simonh 11y ago
    I'm not sure you understand what disingenuous means. Nobody is saying that sub-human level AIs will suddenly surpass humans 'the next day'. That's totally absurd and I really don't know where you get that from. The supposition is that a general purpose AI that is better than a human mind could be better at designing and optimising AIs than a human, then the next genration AI it designs will be even better and that's what sets off the exponential AI intelligence cascade. Imporvements in algorithms can provide startling advances. In some respects the improved efficiency of algorithms has even outstripped the gains from Moore's Law. Personaly I think stong AI like this is pretty far in the future, more than a few decades at least and more likely several generations, but I do think it is eventually likely to happen.
    - darkmighty 11y ago
      Indeed it does not mean what I think it meant, I was thinking the opposite of ingenious. My claim is that, for a fixed hardware, this exponential cascade cannot happen as rapidly as some claim, if it ever happens (whatever 'exponential intelligence' means). We're already improving AI using an intelligence that will only be available to the AIs themselves in a very long time, and yet this rate of improvement is not a scary doomsday rate. Look at hardware for example. We've been using computers to design better computers for a very long time. And yet, the use of computers in this design is effectively limited by some non decisive, local optimizations, like achieving good routing and good electromagnetic compatibility. If you had supercomputers from 30 years ago you could still run the software that designs computers today -- whereas if you followed this "self-improvement" logic we should be using almost all of our computational power right now to achieve more computational power. The problem is that we are still vastly more capable of building theories and designing than computers. By the time an AI gets much better than we currently are at independently improving it's software, it will likely already be seeing diminishing returns; to achieve notable improvement it will need to improve hardware as well, which has the same problem, and an additional one that it's very hard for an AI to independently improve it's own hardware (it requires a global manufacturing supply chain).
      - 11y ago
joe_the_user 11y ago
"Because we're familiar with humans. Most humans don't want to hurt/kill other humans, nor do they have the power to do that on a large scale." Well, large scale mass murder is hardly unknown in human history. The best one can say is that most citizens in times of genocide were just following orders. So most people being supposedly nice isn't really that relevant to the problem of neutral AI that does what ill-intentioned humans tell it. But I would offer the counter-point that we avoid this problem because it shades to all the problems we see and fail to deal with right now. The advance of technology isn't serving many people now and an order where a few people control more and more powerful things seems to continue this. Basically, it's easier to talk about the elephant that might lumber into our living room sometime later than it is to talk about the elephant that's already crushed the couch.

espadrine 11y ago

We evolved from a predator/prey environment. As a result, we have little regard for the life of species we prey upon, or those we consider parasitic. Our fears are mostly built upon the apprehension of a new predator. Had we been a fungus, we would probably fear that keeping the AI running would burn too many resources, leaving us starving. Running out of resources is one thing we humans don't fear much; unlike fungus, we can simply change location.

kylebrown 11y ago

I, for one, welcome our new corporate data center overlords.