8 ms·

Slavoj Žižek on GReferendum: The Greeks are correct

36 points by aspirin 11y ago

huac 11y ago
A very readable and insightful piece by one of the great (in some meanings of the word) philosophers today. A somewhat parallel piece by Zizek a year ago: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/slavoj-i-ek-only-radicalised-left-can-save-europe http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/slavoj-i-ek-onl...
- acqq 11y ago
  Joseph E. Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics and University Professor at Columbia University, cca 10 days ago: http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-referendum-troika-eurozone-by-joseph-e--stiglitz-2015-06 http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-referendu...
- cronjobber 11y ago
  Rather puffed up fluff piece. TL;DR: "a clientelist corrupted state if there ever was one."
  - msandford 11y ago
    So who is at fault for loaning money to what everyone knows is "a clientelist corrupted state if there ever was one"? Surely not the borrower? I mean, historically, for basically all time, it was the job of banks to say "no" to borrowers who were not good credit risks. That was their job, first and foremost, not to lose the principal. In the last decade or two for some reason they decided that preserving their principal wasn't the primary goal, "returns" were. I don't think it's surprising that people who historically have not been given enough rope to hang themselves suddenly get more rope and are expected to know that the world has changed. They don't.
atemerev 11y ago
I am an ultra-free-market Objectivist. Still, I think that the Greeks voted correctly. The problem is: even in a democratic country, you are not accountable to where and how much your government's borrowing. Governments do not produce money; they take it from taxes. Which means: _they_ are borrowing money, and _you_ have to repay it. While being responsible for debts is a good thing, it only concerns your own debts, not something that was made on your behalf. It's the businesses who will suffer the most (as they are taxable), and they are innocent.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  Governments actually produce money from thin air. The "always must have debt money" is a fallacy.
  - MCRed 11y ago
    You cannot produce value from thin air. When they produce that money, it is a form of taxation because it decreases the value of the previously produced money. Monetary inflation devalues the currency.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > You cannot produce value from thin air. Even if true (which, its not, value is created "from thin air" all the time; otherwise, wealth would be zero-sum, and per capita wealth always declining with increasing population), this is irrelevant to the upthread claim which was that governments do not create money. Which is quite obviously false.
    - thesimpsons1022 11y ago
      what happens if you double the money supply but economic productivity also doubles? The money is worth exactly the same as before.
  - atemerev 11y ago
    Money is just a reflection of production (i.e. scarcity of production). Due to market forces inertia, monetary supply can be manipulated, but you can't just start printing money left and right without causing inflation; there is a hard science of doing it without disturbing market balance.
tankenmate 11y ago
The biggest point that is rarely raised in this whole debate is that Germany has benefited for the last decade from the low Euro; which has been courtesy of the Greeks. In the last decade the Germans have had their main stock index gain some €40T (much more if you take from 2003). The increased tax income to the German state over this period would handily pay off Greece's debts. So Germany has benefited from Greece over all these years and now they refuse to pay for that benefit. This is a case of ideological holier than thou treatment, a bureaucratic banality of evil. Meanwhile people sleep on the streets in Greece, from children to pensioners. Both the past Greek governments shouldn't have borrowed the money, and the past European governments shouldn't have lent them the money; now both sides will suffer. And I'm starting to get the feeling that only one side will learn from this (and it isn't the EU bureaucrats, calling them technocrats is too generous; they follow the rules and ideologies even when they are wrong).
- redthrowaway 11y ago
  > past European governments shouldn't have lent them the money It wasn't really European governments lending Greece money, at least not until the bailouts. It was European banks. Incidentally, that's why France and Germany broke the EU's rules and bailed out "Greece": they were protecting the European banking system by offloading bad Greek debt from European banks to European taxpayers. The only workable solution I can see at this point is implicit restructuring through extending loan terms tied to the implementation of reforms and saddled with snap-back provisions. Raise the retirement age? Some portion of the debt is extended 5 years and inflation takes care of reducing it. Ditto tax collection, etc. Then every reform would be politically manageable in Greece because each one would carry with it some measure of debt forgiveness.
- xyby 11y ago
  Meanwhile people sleep on the streets in Greece, from children to pensioners. GDP in Greece is $18k per capita. Why do they sleep on the street? Where do people in Slovakia sleep? They have only $16k per capita. I have friends in Macedonia. They have a GDP of $5k per capita. And I witness nobody sleeping on the streets, when I visit them. Isn't Greece a relatively wealthy country, compared to several others in Europe?
norea-armozel 11y ago
Ultimately, the market has to bare the loss of the Greek government. It's really no different than when a corporation fails to pay its debts. Mind you, it does cause a massive decline in the country's economy. I think the IMF has the right idea, give Greece a means to grow its economy and put a hold on all debt payments. To do otherwise, I think is to court failure of the entire Eurozone.
- x0x0 11y ago
  except the "market" already got a bailout laundered through the greek government so merkel, sarkozy, strauss-kahn, et al, could pretend they hadn't given their banks giant checks
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - norea-armozel 11y ago
    The ECB bought the debt from the private banks, right? So, I think the burden is still to be carried by someone. So, I don't think the ECB should've never bought back the Greek debt at all. The banks need to learn that there's no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to loans. But it seems all governments are hell bent on making the lives of banks far too easy (where the rest of us if we should fail are told to get bent).
    - x0x0 11y ago
      ain't that the lesson of the last 7 years? private gains, socialized losses, and fuck the taxpayers
      - norea-armozel 11y ago
        No doubt. And at this point I'm beginning to lean towards the idea of abolishing money altogether (and I'm the market anarchist here).
xyby 11y ago
Pacta sunt servanda - contracts must be adhered to. Greece has to pay back its debt. You can philosophize all you want. There is no way around it.
- m_fayer 11y ago
  There is no natural law that says this. People, organizations, and governments can very much accumulate debt that they cannot repay, it happens all the time. You can't squeeze blood from a stone, but you can enslave a person or throw them into debtors prison if a punitive approach is what you're after. No matter what you do the debt will not be repaid because it cannot be repaid. We would like to think that in our modernity we have come up with civilized and merciful ways to deal with this situation, like bankruptcy for example. Unfortunately in the case of Greece the creditors seem less then enlightened.
  - xyby 11y ago
    Greece has tax incomes of what, $100bn a year? Why do you say they cannot repay their debts? I don't know the numbers, but I guess it is less then $10bn per year they have to pay.
- igravious 11y ago
  Which is exactly the point Zizek was making. You (in the guise of a so-called technocrat) say that your position is not ideological -- "contracts must be adhered to" according to you -- "while the EU technocrats talk as if it is all a matter of detailed regulatory measures" according to the article. Notice a similarity? So, no. Contracts do not have to be -- and indeed, frequently -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#List_of_sovereign_debt_defaults_or_debt_restructuring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#List_of_sove... are not adhered to. You wish poverty on millions? You wish social unrest? You wish the perpetuation of an unjust financial state of affairs then. I've said this until I'm blue in the face, the €zone as it exists cannot function without fiscal transfers. That requires _political_ redress. Until that happens sovereign states within the €zone are not playing on a level playing field. Each state gave up a lever of power (sovereign currency) to join the club and a similar virtual lever must be established in return (fiscal transfers). Within the USA there are fiscal transfers. Between regions in sovereign states (Germany, UK, Spain, etc.) there are. The €zone has got to have them. But nooo - "Pacta sunt servanda". That simple is it? Give me a break.
zwerdlds 11y ago
My Great Depression Economics professor at university had the opinion that the newly formed ECU was going to be temporary or at least limited in scope, due to the lack of exchange float - similar to the gold standard. I also see a lack of "political float" here. op/ It's too idealistic to expect separate nation states to ignore their differences. /op
chestnut-tree 11y ago
"...only a new “heresy” (represented at this moment by Syriza) can save what is worth saving in European legacy: democracy, trust in people, egalitarian solidarity." I'm glad the Greeks voted No. The zeal with which austerity politics has been unflinchly pursued has caused enormous hardship for people in Greece and across Europe. But do people in Europe really feel a sense of solidarity with each other? I'm from the UK, a country often lambasted for it's aloof and isolationist attitude to Europe. I used to be embarrased by the scepticism shown by British MPs towards closer EU integration. Now, however, I'm just a bit indifferent. The reason? I've seen clearly that self-interest among European countries (almost) always trumps a greater collective good. Yet the press and politicians continue to pretend otherwise. I don't blame individual countries for doing this, but I wish they would drop the pretence that they are pursuing a greater collective goal for Europe when in fact they are often pursuing a best-for-my-country approach. And who can blame them when it will always be to their own electorates that they must first appeal? The migrant crisis in the Mediterranean really amplified this for me. I was ashamed of the UK response, but no other country was willing to share fairly the number of migrants rescued either. And even the rhetoric around Greece is rarely about solidarity and common European humanism, but instead about keeping the integrity of the financial system in place. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33132595 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33132595
- igravious 11y ago
  But do people in Europe really feel a sense of solidarity with each other? Yes, yes they do. I'm also glad the Greeks voted No. About time this charade that is the €zone was fixed properly. And I say that as an ardent proponent of the €. The sooner a politico-fiscal framework is set up the better. Of course people _hate_ the idea because it means that sovereign states become even more closely knit. And they also hate the idea that a mechanism will be put in place whereby regions that benefit more from the integration help regions that don't benefit as much. By all means, the Greeks should get their house in order, but the stereotypes that are being bandied about the place are embarrassing. Smart move by you guys (UK) to stay with the £ while the € experiment got under way. If people put aside their differences and fix it though the € has a chance at becoming by far and away the world's second reserve currency. We're closer than we imagine to that state of affairs I believe. Regarding the immigrant crisis in the Med. Surely a tragedy that every EU citizen should be ashamed of. How many have died already? I don't even know. UK has responded now though (and bravo for that), as has Ireland, Germany, and others?
gregoryganas 11y ago
It's a bit amusing how suddenly everyone seems to be an expert in economics. In any case, what all those people are missing is this: The Greeks signed the contract. The contract hasn't changed since then. If they are "correct" now they shouldn't been willing to sign the contract. Sometimes, the truth hurts.

36 points by aspirin 11y ago

huac 11y ago

A very readable and insightful piece by one of the great (in some meanings of the word) philosophers today. A somewhat parallel piece by Zizek a year ago: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/slavoj-i-ek-only-radicalised-left-can-save-europe http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/slavoj-i-ek-onl...

acqq 11y ago
Joseph E. Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics and University Professor at Columbia University, cca 10 days ago: http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-referendum-troika-eurozone-by-joseph-e--stiglitz-2015-06 http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/greece-referendu...
cronjobber 11y ago
Rather puffed up fluff piece. TL;DR: "a clientelist corrupted state if there ever was one."
- msandford 11y ago
  So who is at fault for loaning money to what everyone knows is "a clientelist corrupted state if there ever was one"? Surely not the borrower? I mean, historically, for basically all time, it was the job of banks to say "no" to borrowers who were not good credit risks. That was their job, first and foremost, not to lose the principal. In the last decade or two for some reason they decided that preserving their principal wasn't the primary goal, "returns" were. I don't think it's surprising that people who historically have not been given enough rope to hang themselves suddenly get more rope and are expected to know that the world has changed. They don't.

atemerev 11y ago

I am an ultra-free-market Objectivist. Still, I think that the Greeks voted correctly. The problem is: even in a democratic country, you are not accountable to where and how much your government's borrowing. Governments do not produce money; they take it from taxes. Which means: _they_ are borrowing money, and _you_ have to repay it. While being responsible for debts is a good thing, it only concerns your own debts, not something that was made on your behalf. It's the businesses who will suffer the most (as they are taxable), and they are innocent.

venomsnake 11y ago
Governments actually produce money from thin air. The "always must have debt money" is a fallacy.
- MCRed 11y ago
  You cannot produce value from thin air. When they produce that money, it is a form of taxation because it decreases the value of the previously produced money. Monetary inflation devalues the currency.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > You cannot produce value from thin air. Even if true (which, its not, value is created "from thin air" all the time; otherwise, wealth would be zero-sum, and per capita wealth always declining with increasing population), this is irrelevant to the upthread claim which was that governments do not create money. Which is quite obviously false.
  - thesimpsons1022 11y ago
    what happens if you double the money supply but economic productivity also doubles? The money is worth exactly the same as before.
- atemerev 11y ago
  Money is just a reflection of production (i.e. scarcity of production). Due to market forces inertia, monetary supply can be manipulated, but you can't just start printing money left and right without causing inflation; there is a hard science of doing it without disturbing market balance.

tankenmate 11y ago

The biggest point that is rarely raised in this whole debate is that Germany has benefited for the last decade from the low Euro; which has been courtesy of the Greeks. In the last decade the Germans have had their main stock index gain some €40T (much more if you take from 2003). The increased tax income to the German state over this period would handily pay off Greece's debts. So Germany has benefited from Greece over all these years and now they refuse to pay for that benefit. This is a case of ideological holier than thou treatment, a bureaucratic banality of evil. Meanwhile people sleep on the streets in Greece, from children to pensioners. Both the past Greek governments shouldn't have borrowed the money, and the past European governments shouldn't have lent them the money; now both sides will suffer. And I'm starting to get the feeling that only one side will learn from this (and it isn't the EU bureaucrats, calling them technocrats is too generous; they follow the rules and ideologies even when they are wrong).

redthrowaway 11y ago
> past European governments shouldn't have lent them the money It wasn't really European governments lending Greece money, at least not until the bailouts. It was European banks. Incidentally, that's why France and Germany broke the EU's rules and bailed out "Greece": they were protecting the European banking system by offloading bad Greek debt from European banks to European taxpayers. The only workable solution I can see at this point is implicit restructuring through extending loan terms tied to the implementation of reforms and saddled with snap-back provisions. Raise the retirement age? Some portion of the debt is extended 5 years and inflation takes care of reducing it. Ditto tax collection, etc. Then every reform would be politically manageable in Greece because each one would carry with it some measure of debt forgiveness.
xyby 11y ago
Meanwhile people sleep on the streets in Greece, from children to pensioners. GDP in Greece is $18k per capita. Why do they sleep on the street? Where do people in Slovakia sleep? They have only $16k per capita. I have friends in Macedonia. They have a GDP of $5k per capita. And I witness nobody sleeping on the streets, when I visit them. Isn't Greece a relatively wealthy country, compared to several others in Europe?

norea-armozel 11y ago

Ultimately, the market has to bare the loss of the Greek government. It's really no different than when a corporation fails to pay its debts. Mind you, it does cause a massive decline in the country's economy. I think the IMF has the right idea, give Greece a means to grow its economy and put a hold on all debt payments. To do otherwise, I think is to court failure of the entire Eurozone.

x0x0 11y ago
except the "market" already got a bailout laundered through the greek government so merkel, sarkozy, strauss-kahn, et al, could pretend they hadn't given their banks giant checks
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- norea-armozel 11y ago
  The ECB bought the debt from the private banks, right? So, I think the burden is still to be carried by someone. So, I don't think the ECB should've never bought back the Greek debt at all. The banks need to learn that there's no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to loans. But it seems all governments are hell bent on making the lives of banks far too easy (where the rest of us if we should fail are told to get bent).
  - x0x0 11y ago
    ain't that the lesson of the last 7 years? private gains, socialized losses, and fuck the taxpayers
    - norea-armozel 11y ago
      No doubt. And at this point I'm beginning to lean towards the idea of abolishing money altogether (and I'm the market anarchist here).

xyby 11y ago

Pacta sunt servanda - contracts must be adhered to. Greece has to pay back its debt. You can philosophize all you want. There is no way around it.

m_fayer 11y ago
There is no natural law that says this. People, organizations, and governments can very much accumulate debt that they cannot repay, it happens all the time. You can't squeeze blood from a stone, but you can enslave a person or throw them into debtors prison if a punitive approach is what you're after. No matter what you do the debt will not be repaid because it cannot be repaid. We would like to think that in our modernity we have come up with civilized and merciful ways to deal with this situation, like bankruptcy for example. Unfortunately in the case of Greece the creditors seem less then enlightened.
- xyby 11y ago
  Greece has tax incomes of what, $100bn a year? Why do you say they cannot repay their debts? I don't know the numbers, but I guess it is less then $10bn per year they have to pay.
igravious 11y ago
Which is exactly the point Zizek was making. You (in the guise of a so-called technocrat) say that your position is not ideological -- "contracts must be adhered to" according to you -- "while the EU technocrats talk as if it is all a matter of detailed regulatory measures" according to the article. Notice a similarity? So, no. Contracts do not have to be -- and indeed, frequently -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#List_of_sovereign_debt_defaults_or_debt_restructuring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#List_of_sove... are not adhered to. You wish poverty on millions? You wish social unrest? You wish the perpetuation of an unjust financial state of affairs then. I've said this until I'm blue in the face, the €zone as it exists cannot function without fiscal transfers. That requires _political_ redress. Until that happens sovereign states within the €zone are not playing on a level playing field. Each state gave up a lever of power (sovereign currency) to join the club and a similar virtual lever must be established in return (fiscal transfers). Within the USA there are fiscal transfers. Between regions in sovereign states (Germany, UK, Spain, etc.) there are. The €zone has got to have them. But nooo - "Pacta sunt servanda". That simple is it? Give me a break.

zwerdlds 11y ago

My Great Depression Economics professor at university had the opinion that the newly formed ECU was going to be temporary or at least limited in scope, due to the lack of exchange float - similar to the gold standard. I also see a lack of "political float" here. op/ It's too idealistic to expect separate nation states to ignore their differences. /op

chestnut-tree 11y ago

"...only a new “heresy” (represented at this moment by Syriza) can save what is worth saving in European legacy: democracy, trust in people, egalitarian solidarity." I'm glad the Greeks voted No. The zeal with which austerity politics has been unflinchly pursued has caused enormous hardship for people in Greece and across Europe. But do people in Europe really feel a sense of solidarity with each other? I'm from the UK, a country often lambasted for it's aloof and isolationist attitude to Europe. I used to be embarrased by the scepticism shown by British MPs towards closer EU integration. Now, however, I'm just a bit indifferent. The reason? I've seen clearly that self-interest among European countries (almost) always trumps a greater collective good. Yet the press and politicians continue to pretend otherwise. I don't blame individual countries for doing this, but I wish they would drop the pretence that they are pursuing a greater collective goal for Europe when in fact they are often pursuing a best-for-my-country approach. And who can blame them when it will always be to their own electorates that they must first appeal? The migrant crisis in the Mediterranean really amplified this for me. I was ashamed of the UK response, but no other country was willing to share fairly the number of migrants rescued either. And even the rhetoric around Greece is rarely about solidarity and common European humanism, but instead about keeping the integrity of the financial system in place. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33132595 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33132595

igravious 11y ago
But do people in Europe really feel a sense of solidarity with each other? Yes, yes they do. I'm also glad the Greeks voted No. About time this charade that is the €zone was fixed properly. And I say that as an ardent proponent of the €. The sooner a politico-fiscal framework is set up the better. Of course people _hate_ the idea because it means that sovereign states become even more closely knit. And they also hate the idea that a mechanism will be put in place whereby regions that benefit more from the integration help regions that don't benefit as much. By all means, the Greeks should get their house in order, but the stereotypes that are being bandied about the place are embarrassing. Smart move by you guys (UK) to stay with the £ while the € experiment got under way. If people put aside their differences and fix it though the € has a chance at becoming by far and away the world's second reserve currency. We're closer than we imagine to that state of affairs I believe. Regarding the immigrant crisis in the Med. Surely a tragedy that every EU citizen should be ashamed of. How many have died already? I don't even know. UK has responded now though (and bravo for that), as has Ireland, Germany, and others?

gregoryganas 11y ago

It's a bit amusing how suddenly everyone seems to be an expert in economics. In any case, what all those people are missing is this: The Greeks signed the contract. The contract hasn't changed since then. If they are "correct" now they shouldn't been willing to sign the contract. Sometimes, the truth hurts.