8 ms·

Minister No More

148 points by mwilcox 11y ago

pvls 11y ago
He did our country a great service. Even now after his personal victory he does what is in the country's best interest. The creditors demanded his removal. True he is a poor diplomat and politics need diplomacy but if more politicians were a bit like him the world would be better off. At least he is honest. As for the situation, as we often say in Greece the truth is somewhere in the middle, we must repay they must let us do so with dignity and hope.
- makeitsuckless 11y ago
  > At least he is honest. He's been caught lying on multiple occasions, most recently only two days ago about already having new proposals from the eurogroup. And it's still remains to be seen how truthful the arguments with which he sold the Greek public on a "no" vote are.
  - pvls 11y ago
    > He's been caught lying on multiple occasions. Has he? Why should we believe that those deals were not offered as he said seeing the change in the attitude of the Eurogroup (which is a loose group of friends as it's president claimed when he decided to kick out one of it's members last Sunday)or even the IMF (which recognized with a report what he always said about debt sustainability) last week after the announcement of the referendum. Anyway by honest I was referring mostly to his political and ideological position and not to his negotiation tactics.
rtpg 11y ago
And to think a couple years ago he was talking about how to sell virtual hats... an interesting person to say the least.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  Interesting blog post from him about how that came to be. http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a-strange-email/ http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a...
JoshTriplett 11y ago
For reference, this is the same Yanis Varoufakis who, before working for the Greek Ministry of Finance, worked for Valve as a digital economist: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a-strange-email/ http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a...
- cpach 11y ago
  That fact is much more interesting than his resignation letter :)
mikeyouse 11y ago
I saw this comparison earlier and was struck by the depth of the Greek recession: http://i.imgur.com/mHgxQeQ.png http://i.imgur.com/mHgxQeQ.png They're in worse shape than the US was at the same time into the Great Depression. Six years after the GFC, and Greece's GDP is still 25% lower than it was pre-crisis. This is really unprecedented stuff. Hard to blame them for taking extreme positions to end the suffering.
- nickonline 11y ago
  But looking at your graph Greece jumps back up ~2 years into their current depression before diving parrallel to the USA 80 years prior. So I'd say looking at that graph they're in exactly the same place the USA was ~4 years after the 'start', depending on where you measure it from.
  - mikeyouse 11y ago
    A common way to measure the length of a recession is to start counting as soon as the GDP drops for two quarters in a row, and stop counting when the GDP recovers past that 'zero point'. A slight slowing in the rate of decline after years of recession isn't quite a recovery so you wouldn't start the clock from there. You can see a similar local max. in the Great Depression line when the government stopped the stimulus programs and passed a law to balance the budget.
    - corin_ 11y ago
      It's still a recession until it hits 'zero' again, even if there is solid growth? E.g. if a country started with a GDP of 100, dropped to 10 in a single year, and then over the next 90 years grew its GDP by 1 each year, it would be 90 years of economic growth but still a recession?
      - mikeyouse 11y ago
        Technically the recession is only when GDP drops for at least two consecutive quarters, what follows is the recovery phase. It's just common phrasing to call the whole period the recession or depression. In your example, there'd be a 1-year recession with a 90-year recovery.
socceroos 11y ago
I'm having trouble reading between the lines here. Was he given a push by being excluded from the recent meetings? Is the suggestion that he was actually a hindrance to Greece progressing? Is he saying he supports the move or that he 'has to'?
- hhandoko 11y ago
  He's content with leaving his position, that Greece now had some leverage to negotiate better terms. He understands that the last restructuring agreement terms is not acceptable. I would assume that he was probably being very vocal in meetings, thus certain parties would think that his presence might make future negotiations more difficult.
  - r0naa 11y ago
    > He's content with leaving his position, that Greece now had some leverage to negotiate better terms. Leverage better terms? I don't think you have any idea how much Tsipras has alienated France and Germany's public opinions. Now that supporting Greece has become synonym of political suicide, I believe that Greece has effectively very little leverage. After Tsipras' call to vote No, I would be surprised to see any negotiation happen in the near future.
    - hhandoko 11y ago
      France and Germany has no option but to negotiate. If Greece defaults, most likely they will exit the Eurozone and this will be disastrous for Europe (Italy and Spain will be exposed in particular). Financially, it will send a ripple effect and the Euro will devalue as those debts can't be collected, i.e. written off. Politically, it will be the beginning of the end of the Eurozone.
      - r0naa 11y ago
        > France and Germany has no option but to negotiate. Again, basic knowledge of the current public opinions of either countries on the subject strongly indicates the contrary. I do not have the background required to have an informed opinion about the economical consequences of such situation. Just stating the obvious from a pure political standpoint IMHO.
Roritharr 11y ago
I will surely follow his future career... he seems to be a master poker player.
nisa 11y ago
He gave 2 talks a few years ago that are well worth a watch - he talks briefly about the abuse of mathematics in certain parts of academic economy, cites a Star Trek Voyager episode and other interesting things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3uNIgDmqwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3uNIgDmqwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEUWxNifJJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEUWxNifJJ8
anovikov 11y ago
When i was a teenager, i frequently felt shocked how politicians managed to justify even obvious crimes, like: Soviets had a theory explaining why Berlin blockade of 1948-49 was good and justified. Now as i am getting old, i am less and less surprised by anything, and yet these Greek guys stand out. I hope i will live enough to see sovereign debt being given only with a physical collateral: a piece of national territory. Otherwise, no way currency union, or any other supranational union except those backed by force (like USA) can survive. If EU leaders had balls, they will prevent what's happening with Greece now, but nobody wants it to do in their electoral cycle. Debt must come with strict, enforceable and unavoidable means to collect it, otherwise both sides - lender and recipient - if they are sovereign nations - are making troubles for themselves and others.
- mikeyouse 11y ago
  This is a bit melodramatic. Debt is a business agreement, if it's not secured then the interest rate will be higher. There are numerous ways for lenders to protect themselves against default, but default is always an option. There's no moral failing, it's purely an economic decision from here forward. Greece will technically default, they'll renegotiate terms, they might leave the EZ, but in the end, life will go on and banks will gladly lend to them again.
- snitko 11y ago
  The problem isn't that Greece cannot repay the debt. The real problem is that the people of Greece were indebted by the politicians whom most of them didn't even vote for. And those who did vote for them, were not fully aware of the implications and consequences they and everyone else in Greece were going to face. Basically, what happened is that one small group of people sold everyone else into debt bondage. They had no moral right whatsoever to do so. Now these people lost their savings and face a daunting prospect of shortages and hardships. Call it democracy, but really it's just a crime. Perhaps it's time to rethink what role should governments play in our lives, if any.
  - anovikov 11y ago
    This is exactly the reason why strict and enforceable means to collect debt is required: countries are democratic and people can vote against paying the debt, thus relieving politicians who took those decisions of any responsibility. This is why there must be a legitimate force beyond the government control to collect back the money. Or modern economy becomes an illusion.
binarray2000 11y ago
This whole Greek economic (and now social) crisis is one muddy thing. At first, until Syriza came to power, I have understood what's been happening between the key players. The "story behind", while never completely told by the media, was clear. With Syriza, that's no longer the case. For example: The way they have negotiated with the creditors, their whole communication with the media, who financed them. Totally contradictory. And now, the man in the duo Varoufakis resigns... What a show! But, what's behind it?
brianchu 11y ago
I think this move serves to weaken the political cover for the Eurogroup refusing to continue negotiations with Greece (they can't say "we refuse to negotiate because of Yanis"). I'm starting to think that this was his plan all along, and that he and Tsipras are outplaying the Eurogroup right now.
- jevgeni 11y ago
  No, they can refuse to negotiate for all other childish reasons the Syriza government brings to the table.
jwise0 11y ago
His post evokes FDR's speech some days before the 1936 election, in which Roosevelt says: "We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace--business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering. [...] Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me--and I welcome their hatred." Varoufakis, and Greece in general, are in a somewhat different position right now than America was immediately after the First New Deal. On the other hand, if Varoufakis is right, the differences may not be as great as I imagine...
forrestthewoods 11y ago
Incompetent or mad genius? I'm not smart enough to figure it out.
ioannisyan 11y ago
The contract that Greece signed with the EU didn't change after they signed it. If they agreed to it then, they have to agree to it now. If you disagree then does that mean I don't have to pay off my college loans, house mortgage and car loan either?
- jon-wood 11y ago
  If you're unable to, and can prove it, then yes you can declare bankruptcy.
  - peterfirefly 11y ago
    For college loans as well?
- hhandoko 11y ago
  Yes, but there will be consequences of course (e.g. inability to borrow in the future).
  - gonvaled 11y ago
    Are you sure about that? Isn't a country better off after debt restructuring?
    - hhandoko 11y ago
      My response was in context of whether we can just `not pay` our loans. But yes, a country can be better off after debt restructure and should remain that way if certain reforms are put in place.
- maaku 11y ago
  You are not a sovereign state.
Mikeb85 11y ago
It's unfortunate, because his understanding of economics eclipses that of his European peers. I'm sure he'll still be advising Tsipras in some capacity though. And his resignation will take away one more of the troika's excuses...
rhaps0dy 11y ago
Why do nations borrow?
- peterfirefly 11y ago
  Easier vote buying, usually.
- chvid 11y ago
  Because people want to save.
  - nhaehnle 11y ago
    Thank you! I realize that you probably imitated GP's short style on purpose, but to elaborate a little bit: It's an accounting tautology that every (monetary) savings must be offset by a debt somewhere. Since private households tend to save (and we should consider that a good thing, given how available savings is an essential part of freedom within a capitalist system), the debts have to be somewhere else. They could be debts of firms (for investment), but the private sector is exposed to (sometimes severe) economic fluctuations. So a buffer is needed somewhere, and the logical place for this buffer is government debt.
- hhandoko 11y ago
  I assume this is a serious question. I suppose the simplest answer is: to increase your spending (ability) right now, with the expectation that after the debt has been paid off you will be achieve a net positive value. A small business might borrow to buy expensive equipment which will enable them to offer additional service, or to access other market segment. Along a similar line, a country might borrow to accelerate their growth (e.g. investing in infrastructure projects).
OoTheNigerian 11y ago
I have only questions. Was this the plan all along? Is this the highest stake of good cop, bad cop ever played? Whatever the outcome, I have full respect for Yanis and would be taking full note of everything he has to say.
NamTaf 11y ago
Ignoring everything else, watching this whole saga unfold has been absolutely incredible. In a global environment mainly involving conservative powers, seeing a left-wing party take left-wing views to the negotiation table is utterly fascinating. The next few days are going to be incredible. I really do hope Yanis stays on with the Greek government - his knowledge is clearly beneficial even if his ability to negotiate is lacking (for reasons I'm partially sympathetic to given the qualifications of his counterparts). He definitely has a position to play in the Greek government adivsing their plays in the coming future. e: I'd absolutely love to see him and Wayne Swan (AU centre-left-wing treasurer during the GFC) sit down and discuss both the AU and Greek history between GFC and now. Swan and co. implemented a massive stimulation package that's widely credited as saving AU from feeling the bulk of the pain of the GFC and was relatively unique in its existance amongst the approaches of various nations. I think both of them could have quite the discussion about how both AU and Greece approached this and the resultant effects then to now.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Australia had the massive advantage of its own currency and a low government debt. Australia had room to manoeuvre through the GFC where as Greece went into it with a currency it does not control and very high debt levels resulting from reckless (and fraudulent) lending. While Wayne Swan did OK, I doubt he could have done much if he had been the Greek finance minister in 2008.
  - peterfirefly 11y ago
    On the other hand... having a huge list of potential internal reforms that will all improve the economy is a different kind of room for manoeuvre ;)
  - contingencies 11y ago
    Australia had the massive advantage of its own currency and a low government debt. Not to mention a relatively natural resource-based economy, and significant trade with China... one of the other least GFC effected parts of the world.
noreasonw 11y ago
What happens when you use game theory in a rough political situation? We will see it soon. We are entering in an uncharted territory, the risk has increased. This kind of negotiation is going to settle a new battle field in politics and as in any battle there can be huge losses.
caf 11y ago
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. -- Teddy Roosevelt
- scrollaway 11y ago
  Sorry for sidetracking but this is a really big annoyance of mine on hn/reddit. A quote without any context is just an invitation to a pissing contest between who can google the most appropriate random piece of text some famous dead guy said. It's not exactly constructive. All you're saying here is "to hell with the critics" and making it seem like TR agrees with that viewpoint wrt greek economics 100 years after his death.
  - caf 11y ago
    Frankly, I thought this would be perfectly obvious, so did not need to be explicitly stated: My intention was to underscore that criticism of the ex-FM from the sidelines should be tempered with the knowledge that there are intractable problems here which he was genuinely attempting to solve. That this might be taken to imply that the long-dead author of the quote which I used for its poetry somehow endorses a position in contemporary political debate is so obviously absurd that I cannot imagine a HN reader doing so.
  - lllllll 11y ago
    Interesting, I found this quote very appropiate here, specially because its meaning is quite ambiguous to me. And so are the times we are living in the EU. For instance, given Varoufakis's resignation, we could interpret the man in different ways: 1) As a person who chose not to be in the arena(in TR's words). 2) A man who was already in the arena but already failed while daring greatly. 3) A man who was already in the arena and arrived at triumph of high achievement, by allowing the Greek people to challenge the Troika with a referendum. And his resignation is just another triumphal move. I do agree tho that filling comment threads with open-to-interpretation quotes is not very constructuve. Still one here one there can make the issue less black and white - which is good IMHO.
awv 11y ago
He is good talker, but I wonder if Yanis would let me borrow his bike or other possessions he has. No guarantees from me.
- gonvaled 11y ago
  With your risk profile, the interest rate will be 99%, payable as soon as the credit is given, before you leave the room. You will come alone, unarmed, and barefooted.
p_monk 11y ago
Brilliant. I believe his exit was planned before the referendum, regardless of the outcome. He had already openly stated that he would step down if the result of the vote was YES, but the media never asked him what would happen in the event of a NO victory. His exit, especially in the early AM before EU markets open, will give some confidence to the bankers and most likely prevent the markets from sinking. Furthermore, it will signal to the creditors that SYRIZA is serious about reaching a deal. I've been following the evolution of Mr. Varoufakis's thinking for the last 5 years, through his many appearances on Doug Henwood's Behind the News podcast. Listening to him speak on the Euro-crisis, it's clear that there's no one in the media who has a better grasp of how we got into this mess and how we ought to get out of it. http://lbo-news.com/2015/01/28/yanis-varoufakis-on-btn-16-times/ http://lbo-news.com/2015/01/28/yanis-varoufakis-on-btn-16-ti...
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Yes I would say this is right. There needs to be an ability for all sides to save face here so someone had to go. I suspect that he has been extra obnoxious of late so that he could be removed at the appropriate time. Classic ploy.
totalcookie 11y ago
"Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." HN Guidelines
- hhandoko 11y ago
  Possibly. But he worked at Valve as Economist-in-Residence which somewhat makes him, a relevant figure to the HN community.
cpach 11y ago
A resignation letter from a finance minister. I don’t think this is suitable for Hacker News. Flagged.

148 points by mwilcox 11y ago

pvls 11y ago

He did our country a great service. Even now after his personal victory he does what is in the country's best interest. The creditors demanded his removal. True he is a poor diplomat and politics need diplomacy but if more politicians were a bit like him the world would be better off. At least he is honest. As for the situation, as we often say in Greece the truth is somewhere in the middle, we must repay they must let us do so with dignity and hope.

makeitsuckless 11y ago
> At least he is honest. He's been caught lying on multiple occasions, most recently only two days ago about already having new proposals from the eurogroup. And it's still remains to be seen how truthful the arguments with which he sold the Greek public on a "no" vote are.
- pvls 11y ago
  > He's been caught lying on multiple occasions. Has he? Why should we believe that those deals were not offered as he said seeing the change in the attitude of the Eurogroup (which is a loose group of friends as it's president claimed when he decided to kick out one of it's members last Sunday)or even the IMF (which recognized with a report what he always said about debt sustainability) last week after the announcement of the referendum. Anyway by honest I was referring mostly to his political and ideological position and not to his negotiation tactics.

rtpg 11y ago

And to think a couple years ago he was talking about how to sell virtual hats... an interesting person to say the least.

fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
Interesting blog post from him about how that came to be. http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a-strange-email/ http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a...

JoshTriplett 11y ago

For reference, this is the same Yanis Varoufakis who, before working for the Greek Ministry of Finance, worked for Valve as a digital economist: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a-strange-email/ http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a...

cpach 11y ago
That fact is much more interesting than his resignation letter :)

mikeyouse 11y ago

I saw this comparison earlier and was struck by the depth of the Greek recession: http://i.imgur.com/mHgxQeQ.png http://i.imgur.com/mHgxQeQ.png They're in worse shape than the US was at the same time into the Great Depression. Six years after the GFC, and Greece's GDP is still 25% lower than it was pre-crisis. This is really unprecedented stuff. Hard to blame them for taking extreme positions to end the suffering.

nickonline 11y ago
But looking at your graph Greece jumps back up ~2 years into their current depression before diving parrallel to the USA 80 years prior. So I'd say looking at that graph they're in exactly the same place the USA was ~4 years after the 'start', depending on where you measure it from.
- mikeyouse 11y ago
  A common way to measure the length of a recession is to start counting as soon as the GDP drops for two quarters in a row, and stop counting when the GDP recovers past that 'zero point'. A slight slowing in the rate of decline after years of recession isn't quite a recovery so you wouldn't start the clock from there. You can see a similar local max. in the Great Depression line when the government stopped the stimulus programs and passed a law to balance the budget.
  - corin_ 11y ago
    It's still a recession until it hits 'zero' again, even if there is solid growth? E.g. if a country started with a GDP of 100, dropped to 10 in a single year, and then over the next 90 years grew its GDP by 1 each year, it would be 90 years of economic growth but still a recession?
    - mikeyouse 11y ago
      Technically the recession is only when GDP drops for at least two consecutive quarters, what follows is the recovery phase. It's just common phrasing to call the whole period the recession or depression. In your example, there'd be a 1-year recession with a 90-year recovery.

socceroos 11y ago

I'm having trouble reading between the lines here. Was he given a push by being excluded from the recent meetings? Is the suggestion that he was actually a hindrance to Greece progressing? Is he saying he supports the move or that he 'has to'?

hhandoko 11y ago
He's content with leaving his position, that Greece now had some leverage to negotiate better terms. He understands that the last restructuring agreement terms is not acceptable. I would assume that he was probably being very vocal in meetings, thus certain parties would think that his presence might make future negotiations more difficult.
- r0naa 11y ago
  > He's content with leaving his position, that Greece now had some leverage to negotiate better terms. Leverage better terms? I don't think you have any idea how much Tsipras has alienated France and Germany's public opinions. Now that supporting Greece has become synonym of political suicide, I believe that Greece has effectively very little leverage. After Tsipras' call to vote No, I would be surprised to see any negotiation happen in the near future.
  - hhandoko 11y ago
    France and Germany has no option but to negotiate. If Greece defaults, most likely they will exit the Eurozone and this will be disastrous for Europe (Italy and Spain will be exposed in particular). Financially, it will send a ripple effect and the Euro will devalue as those debts can't be collected, i.e. written off. Politically, it will be the beginning of the end of the Eurozone.
    - r0naa 11y ago
      > France and Germany has no option but to negotiate. Again, basic knowledge of the current public opinions of either countries on the subject strongly indicates the contrary. I do not have the background required to have an informed opinion about the economical consequences of such situation. Just stating the obvious from a pure political standpoint IMHO.

Roritharr 11y ago

I will surely follow his future career... he seems to be a master poker player.

nisa 11y ago

He gave 2 talks a few years ago that are well worth a watch - he talks briefly about the abuse of mathematics in certain parts of academic economy, cites a Star Trek Voyager episode and other interesting things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3uNIgDmqwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3uNIgDmqwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEUWxNifJJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEUWxNifJJ8

anovikov 11y ago

When i was a teenager, i frequently felt shocked how politicians managed to justify even obvious crimes, like: Soviets had a theory explaining why Berlin blockade of 1948-49 was good and justified. Now as i am getting old, i am less and less surprised by anything, and yet these Greek guys stand out. I hope i will live enough to see sovereign debt being given only with a physical collateral: a piece of national territory. Otherwise, no way currency union, or any other supranational union except those backed by force (like USA) can survive. If EU leaders had balls, they will prevent what's happening with Greece now, but nobody wants it to do in their electoral cycle. Debt must come with strict, enforceable and unavoidable means to collect it, otherwise both sides - lender and recipient - if they are sovereign nations - are making troubles for themselves and others.

mikeyouse 11y ago
This is a bit melodramatic. Debt is a business agreement, if it's not secured then the interest rate will be higher. There are numerous ways for lenders to protect themselves against default, but default is always an option. There's no moral failing, it's purely an economic decision from here forward. Greece will technically default, they'll renegotiate terms, they might leave the EZ, but in the end, life will go on and banks will gladly lend to them again.
snitko 11y ago
The problem isn't that Greece cannot repay the debt. The real problem is that the people of Greece were indebted by the politicians whom most of them didn't even vote for. And those who did vote for them, were not fully aware of the implications and consequences they and everyone else in Greece were going to face. Basically, what happened is that one small group of people sold everyone else into debt bondage. They had no moral right whatsoever to do so. Now these people lost their savings and face a daunting prospect of shortages and hardships. Call it democracy, but really it's just a crime. Perhaps it's time to rethink what role should governments play in our lives, if any.
- anovikov 11y ago
  This is exactly the reason why strict and enforceable means to collect debt is required: countries are democratic and people can vote against paying the debt, thus relieving politicians who took those decisions of any responsibility. This is why there must be a legitimate force beyond the government control to collect back the money. Or modern economy becomes an illusion.

binarray2000 11y ago

This whole Greek economic (and now social) crisis is one muddy thing. At first, until Syriza came to power, I have understood what's been happening between the key players. The "story behind", while never completely told by the media, was clear. With Syriza, that's no longer the case. For example: The way they have negotiated with the creditors, their whole communication with the media, who financed them. Totally contradictory. And now, the man in the duo Varoufakis resigns... What a show! But, what's behind it?

brianchu 11y ago

I think this move serves to weaken the political cover for the Eurogroup refusing to continue negotiations with Greece (they can't say "we refuse to negotiate because of Yanis"). I'm starting to think that this was his plan all along, and that he and Tsipras are outplaying the Eurogroup right now.

jevgeni 11y ago
No, they can refuse to negotiate for all other childish reasons the Syriza government brings to the table.

jwise0 11y ago

His post evokes FDR's speech some days before the 1936 election, in which Roosevelt says: "We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace--business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering. [...] Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me--and I welcome their hatred." Varoufakis, and Greece in general, are in a somewhat different position right now than America was immediately after the First New Deal. On the other hand, if Varoufakis is right, the differences may not be as great as I imagine...

forrestthewoods 11y ago

Incompetent or mad genius? I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

ioannisyan 11y ago

The contract that Greece signed with the EU didn't change after they signed it. If they agreed to it then, they have to agree to it now. If you disagree then does that mean I don't have to pay off my college loans, house mortgage and car loan either?

jon-wood 11y ago
If you're unable to, and can prove it, then yes you can declare bankruptcy.
- peterfirefly 11y ago
  For college loans as well?
hhandoko 11y ago
Yes, but there will be consequences of course (e.g. inability to borrow in the future).
- gonvaled 11y ago
  Are you sure about that? Isn't a country better off after debt restructuring?
  - hhandoko 11y ago
    My response was in context of whether we can just `not pay` our loans. But yes, a country can be better off after debt restructure and should remain that way if certain reforms are put in place.
maaku 11y ago
You are not a sovereign state.

Mikeb85 11y ago

It's unfortunate, because his understanding of economics eclipses that of his European peers. I'm sure he'll still be advising Tsipras in some capacity though. And his resignation will take away one more of the troika's excuses...

rhaps0dy 11y ago

Why do nations borrow?

peterfirefly 11y ago
Easier vote buying, usually.
chvid 11y ago
Because people want to save.
- nhaehnle 11y ago
  Thank you! I realize that you probably imitated GP's short style on purpose, but to elaborate a little bit: It's an accounting tautology that every (monetary) savings must be offset by a debt somewhere. Since private households tend to save (and we should consider that a good thing, given how available savings is an essential part of freedom within a capitalist system), the debts have to be somewhere else. They could be debts of firms (for investment), but the private sector is exposed to (sometimes severe) economic fluctuations. So a buffer is needed somewhere, and the logical place for this buffer is government debt.
hhandoko 11y ago
I assume this is a serious question. I suppose the simplest answer is: to increase your spending (ability) right now, with the expectation that after the debt has been paid off you will be achieve a net positive value. A small business might borrow to buy expensive equipment which will enable them to offer additional service, or to access other market segment. Along a similar line, a country might borrow to accelerate their growth (e.g. investing in infrastructure projects).

OoTheNigerian 11y ago

I have only questions. Was this the plan all along? Is this the highest stake of good cop, bad cop ever played? Whatever the outcome, I have full respect for Yanis and would be taking full note of everything he has to say.

NamTaf 11y ago

Ignoring everything else, watching this whole saga unfold has been absolutely incredible. In a global environment mainly involving conservative powers, seeing a left-wing party take left-wing views to the negotiation table is utterly fascinating. The next few days are going to be incredible. I really do hope Yanis stays on with the Greek government - his knowledge is clearly beneficial even if his ability to negotiate is lacking (for reasons I'm partially sympathetic to given the qualifications of his counterparts). He definitely has a position to play in the Greek government adivsing their plays in the coming future. e: I'd absolutely love to see him and Wayne Swan (AU centre-left-wing treasurer during the GFC) sit down and discuss both the AU and Greek history between GFC and now. Swan and co. implemented a massive stimulation package that's widely credited as saving AU from feeling the bulk of the pain of the GFC and was relatively unique in its existance amongst the approaches of various nations. I think both of them could have quite the discussion about how both AU and Greece approached this and the resultant effects then to now.

danieltillett 11y ago
Australia had the massive advantage of its own currency and a low government debt. Australia had room to manoeuvre through the GFC where as Greece went into it with a currency it does not control and very high debt levels resulting from reckless (and fraudulent) lending. While Wayne Swan did OK, I doubt he could have done much if he had been the Greek finance minister in 2008.
- peterfirefly 11y ago
  On the other hand... having a huge list of potential internal reforms that will all improve the economy is a different kind of room for manoeuvre ;)
- contingencies 11y ago
  Australia had the massive advantage of its own currency and a low government debt. Not to mention a relatively natural resource-based economy, and significant trade with China... one of the other least GFC effected parts of the world.

noreasonw 11y ago

What happens when you use game theory in a rough political situation? We will see it soon. We are entering in an uncharted territory, the risk has increased. This kind of negotiation is going to settle a new battle field in politics and as in any battle there can be huge losses.

caf 11y ago

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. -- Teddy Roosevelt

scrollaway 11y ago
Sorry for sidetracking but this is a really big annoyance of mine on hn/reddit. A quote without any context is just an invitation to a pissing contest between who can google the most appropriate random piece of text some famous dead guy said. It's not exactly constructive. All you're saying here is "to hell with the critics" and making it seem like TR agrees with that viewpoint wrt greek economics 100 years after his death.
- caf 11y ago
  Frankly, I thought this would be perfectly obvious, so did not need to be explicitly stated: My intention was to underscore that criticism of the ex-FM from the sidelines should be tempered with the knowledge that there are intractable problems here which he was genuinely attempting to solve. That this might be taken to imply that the long-dead author of the quote which I used for its poetry somehow endorses a position in contemporary political debate is so obviously absurd that I cannot imagine a HN reader doing so.
- lllllll 11y ago
  Interesting, I found this quote very appropiate here, specially because its meaning is quite ambiguous to me. And so are the times we are living in the EU. For instance, given Varoufakis's resignation, we could interpret the man in different ways: 1) As a person who chose not to be in the arena(in TR's words). 2) A man who was already in the arena but already failed while daring greatly. 3) A man who was already in the arena and arrived at triumph of high achievement, by allowing the Greek people to challenge the Troika with a referendum. And his resignation is just another triumphal move. I do agree tho that filling comment threads with open-to-interpretation quotes is not very constructuve. Still one here one there can make the issue less black and white - which is good IMHO.

awv 11y ago

He is good talker, but I wonder if Yanis would let me borrow his bike or other possessions he has. No guarantees from me.

gonvaled 11y ago
With your risk profile, the interest rate will be 99%, payable as soon as the credit is given, before you leave the room. You will come alone, unarmed, and barefooted.

p_monk 11y ago

Brilliant. I believe his exit was planned before the referendum, regardless of the outcome. He had already openly stated that he would step down if the result of the vote was YES, but the media never asked him what would happen in the event of a NO victory. His exit, especially in the early AM before EU markets open, will give some confidence to the bankers and most likely prevent the markets from sinking. Furthermore, it will signal to the creditors that SYRIZA is serious about reaching a deal. I've been following the evolution of Mr. Varoufakis's thinking for the last 5 years, through his many appearances on Doug Henwood's Behind the News podcast. Listening to him speak on the Euro-crisis, it's clear that there's no one in the media who has a better grasp of how we got into this mess and how we ought to get out of it. http://lbo-news.com/2015/01/28/yanis-varoufakis-on-btn-16-times/ http://lbo-news.com/2015/01/28/yanis-varoufakis-on-btn-16-ti...

danieltillett 11y ago
Yes I would say this is right. There needs to be an ability for all sides to save face here so someone had to go. I suspect that he has been extra obnoxious of late so that he could be removed at the appropriate time. Classic ploy.

totalcookie 11y ago

"Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." HN Guidelines

hhandoko 11y ago
Possibly. But he worked at Valve as Economist-in-Residence which somewhat makes him, a relevant figure to the HN community.

cpach 11y ago

A resignation letter from a finance minister. I don’t think this is suitable for Hacker News. Flagged.