22 ms·

This Industry is Fucked

• aaa667 11y ago
  And people ask why more women don't speak at conferences or at meetup groups or contribute to open source software, or even publish blogs. It's because we are SCARED. We know what the consequences of making our voices heard can be, and it's terrifying, and we question whether it is worth the risk.
  • obstacle1 11y ago
    I think you're being a bit overbroad in speaking for all women (that's the kind of thinking which leads to sexism in the first place). Frankly the 'consequences' here are receiving a bunch of unsavoury PMs. i.e., there are no real-world, physical, dangerous consequences. So the fear of contributing to a community because of it is unfounded. It's just a side-effect of Internet culture, and it happens to men too.
    • nmrm2 11y ago
      The author received private messages saying that someone jerked off to a picture of her at a conference and also photoshopped pictures of her full of blood. Those sorts of messages -- even in isolation -- have real-world, often physical, consequences. This attitude that sexual harassment is only harmful if it's a physical assault needs to go back to the 1950's where it belongs.
      • obstacle1 11y ago
        >Those sorts of messages -- even in isolation -- have real-world, often physical, consequences. No, in the vast majority of cases they don't. Trolls gonna troll, sorry. I'll bet we can count on one hand the number of times Internet death threats have led to actual deaths. There's a reason authorities don't investigate or prosecute stuff like this. >This attitude that sexual harassment is only harmful if it's a physical assault Sorry, what? How is a death threat sexual harassment?
        • nmrm2 11y ago
          I don't know how to respond to your assertion that receiving violent messages on a regular basis is only harmful if there's a credible threat of follow-through. It's simply not normal to have to read email threatening you or making sexually harassing statements. No one should have to put up with that. The fact that you seem to think that this is normal is deeply concerning to me. If you regularly receive harassing messages, that's not okay and I'm really sorry. I'm really glad that you're apparently able to handle that without lots of mental anguish, but it's not something we as a society should shrug off. > How is a death threat sexual harassment? Please read the linked post. If you can't find the instance of sexual harassment in the author's blog post... god help you.
        • bunderbunder 11y ago
          You're trying to move the goalpost here, and folks are right to not let you do it. If you think abusive behavior is OK, show some courage of your convictions and just say it outright. Don't sit here playing word games that make you look like a coward.
          • obstacle1 11y ago
            >If you think abusive behavior is OK I don't think abusive behavior is OK, I just don't think Internet PMs or e-mails even register above 1 on the 10-point scale of things that are abusive. Sexual assault at a conference is reprehensible and must be dealt with; abusive private messages are an uncomfortable consequence of participating in an anonymous distributed network.
      • SmokyBourbon 11y ago
        > The author received private messages saying that someone jerked off to a picture of her The author says she received these pictures. There's a difference.
    • aaa667 11y ago
      I would say that death threats can have very real-world consequences, and if I were to receive them the real-world consequence would be that I would be scared for my life. You tell me how that isn't the real world..
    • prawn 11y ago
      Wow, completely insensitive to reality. Photoshopped photos of blood and so on represent serious intimidation. Which one is the troll and which is the one who follows through, finds your address and makes it physical? This dismissive attitude is part of the problem.
    • qmalxp 11y ago
      If someone sent you an email every day from different email addresses with the same text saying they were going to rape and murder you, and included your home address, pictures of your family and pictures of weapons, that wouldn't bother you? How do you know there are no real-world consequences? You're just gonna assume it's some 14-year-old kid trolling you and not one of the many insane people in this world who might actually do something? Based on a hunch?
      • obstacle1 11y ago
        >You're just gonna assume it's some 14-year-old kid trolling you and not one of the many insane people in this world who might actually do something? Based on a hunch? Based on evidence and reasoning through probability. Thousands of Internet trolls send tens of thousands of death threats every day. On a given day, the probability that even one of those death threats is acted upon is a sliver greater than zero. As in, maybe there are one or two cases per year worldwide where a troll brigade carries out some real-world action corresponding to its threats. Though even that, I suspect, is an overestimate.
        • BrainInAJar 11y ago
          And your house "probably" won't get broken in to. But you still lock the door.
      • douche 11y ago
        The day I seriously worry about a 14-year old internet wanktard harassing me in my home is probably also the day that I go to jail for blowing away said internet wanktard because they were unlucky enough to threaten me in my home whilst I was there.
    • rodgerd 11y ago
      > there are no real-world, physical, dangerous consequences Tell that to Val Adams or other women who have been sexually assaulted at tech conferences. > and it happens to men too My mistake. I thought you were serious, not that redpill was leaking.
      • vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        You're setting the bar for redpiller remarkably low, I must note.
      • obstacle1 11y ago
        >Val Adams I don't know who you're talking about and curiously neither does Google. This comment appears to be the only mention of 'Val Adams' to ever appear on HN. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're above making up names in hopes that nobody will check your references. Could you provide a link detailing whatever incident you're talking about involving Val Adams?
        • __z 11y ago
          Probably referring to Valerie Aurora (formerly Henson) http://valerieaurora.org/ http://valerieaurora.org/ and this post - https://adainitiative.org/2012/08/defcon-why-conference-harassment-matters/ https://adainitiative.org/2012/08/defcon-why-conference-hara... and this one - https://lwn.net/Articles/417952/ https://lwn.net/Articles/417952/
    • wpietri 11y ago
      > It's just a side-effect of Internet culture, and it happens to men too. This is false-equivalence horseshit. It may also happen to men, but it happens a couple of orders of magnitude less. I've spoken at a number of conferences and never received anything like this. If you talk to prominent men and women in tech about their experiences, they get radically different levels of abuse. Also, Internet culture is not something that has been going on for thousands of years. It is entirely new. So either a) this should be a pretty easy fix, or b) it's actually part of something bigger than "Internet culture".
  • aikah 11y ago
    > why more women don't speak at conferences or at meetup groups or contribute to open source software Whatever, Plenty of women do all the things you said without issues.
• shawnee_ 11y ago
  I’ve gotten hundreds of private messages on IRC and emails about sex, rape, and death threats. Not sure what IRC channels she has been hanging out in, or what her spam filters are letting through, but this has not been my experience at all... in 10 years of contributing to OSS. However, attractive female posts videos (yep, even conference talk) on the Internet, and attention ensues? Maybe it's not an "industry" thing. Maybe it's something else. [EDIT] -- Wow, thanks for the votes folks. The author wants to blame "the Industry" for something that is not unique to the industry.
  • yoshuaw 11y ago
    Wow, you just downplayed receiving death threats to "attention ensues".
    • foiboitoi 11y ago
      I've found that you can absolutely chalk up "online death threats" to idiots vying for attention. Impersonal (distant) threats are not created equal to in person threats. Edit: The harm is subjective. The whole point of such a message is it's designed entirely to shock or offend. To give the pests actual power over you is the greatest part of the problem. Not saying it should be ignored either. Instead of being melodramatic, we should be pragmatic like we were with email spam. The next step is to create tools giving greater power to the users to pro-actively prevent such nonsense.
      • yoshuaw 11y ago
        I feel like you're implying that the threats are harmless. They are not. She received pictures of her covered in blood. A twisted portrayal of someone's fantasies. Receiving something like that would get to anyone.
    • obstacle1 11y ago
      If I had a nickel for every death threat I've received on the Internet I'd be rich. Death threats from Internet brigade squads are wildly different from actual death threats you need to worry about. Hence the downplaying.
• pg_is_a_butt 11y ago
  yeah, that will help... engage the trolls. moron.
• deelowe 11y ago
  This is terrible. Are scenarios like this really common? I work with several women in the office, but have not heard of them dealing with such harassment. Is our situation unique? Either way, I hope this changes soon. There's no reason for acting like that.
  • thirdtruck 11y ago
    You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." Even if you, specifically, are a genuinely sympathetic ear, they've likely been burned too often to open up yet again.
    • Frondo 11y ago
      This, this, a thousand times this. I have a few female programmer friends, and they only ever spoke about "well, you know, not too many women in the field" in careful, guarded tones. Until the Adria Richards thing happened, and I said something like "I don't really think either of them should have been fired, but I also think it's shitty how common those stupid sexual jokes are. I wish we could get past that stuff." And it was like they realized they could actually trust me, and started opening up to me about actual specific stuff--like a constant barrage of junior high sexual jokes, being talked over or ignored constantly (which never happens to me, a tall white dude), being hit on, being not quite hit on but followed around and lots of awkward eye contact and vaguely nice gestures that ends up adding to something as inappropriate as being hit on, and on and on and on. You know how they want to be treated? As people. But that's not really good enough--they want to be treated as people, and they want their coworkers to show maturity beyond what junior high school boys show. Is this all male programmers? Of course not, not at all. Enough that they have stories that could fill an afternoon? Oh yes.
      • jazzyk 11y ago
        Please do not bring the Adria story again - she made a fuss because of an adolescent joke she overheard two rows behind her in a private conversation, which was NOT DIRECTED AT HER, and was not about females or sexual or any other interaction with females. All the same while making crass jokes herself in her social media accounts. As opposed to this case, where some sickos clearly send very troubling messages DIRECTLY ADDRESSED to Jessie. She should call the cops immediately.
• vonklaus 11y ago
  This is less about the tech industry and more about the culture of the internet. A loud minority enforce the culture of anonymity on the internet and having a public presence will open one up to getting caught in the crosshairs. Being a "public figure" has always opened one up to these sorts of things, the internet has made the barrier of entry very low for spamming and threatening someone. I don't see any solution to this.
  • MarkPNeyer 11y ago
    here is my solution : https://github.com/neyer/respect https://github.com/neyer/respect
    • aaronem 11y ago
      Got something for those of us who aren't mathematicians? I mean, I appreciate you've put a lot of thought into this and I'm sure it seems perfectly sensible to you, but expecting us mere mortals to determine our response to a given situation by matrix multiplication is maybe expecting a little more than our capabilities can afford.
      • MarkPNeyer 11y ago
        the matrix multiplication will be done behind the scenes; you can just pay attention to the output: a number for each other person, saying how much you are likely to respect them, given who you say you respect. it's like a count: how many friends respect this person, how many friends of friends, how many friends of friends of friends, etc.
    • jacques_chester 11y ago
      Webs of trust are very hard to bootstrap. Probably the most serious attempt in our industry was Advogato: http://www.advogato.org/trust-metric.html http://www.advogato.org/trust-metric.html
    • Nimitz14 11y ago
      That was an awesome read. Cool idea.
• chipx86 11y ago
  Kudos to her for standing up to it, but she should clearly never have to. This kind of thing just shouldn't be happening... I don't think I know anybody who does this to women. I really hope that's because I don't actually know anyone who does, and not that people I otherwise respect are secretly doing this. How would a person know, if it's anonymous? Well, maybe a few ways. The question is, are these all actually anonymous? Jessie's post lists messages on IRC and e-mails. I'd bet some people get harassed on Twitter, Reddit, or other widely-used platforms. Some of these people must be identifiable, surely? At the very least, some might be using the same username/e-mail address across many services, and might end up using one in relation to a job application. The last thing I'd want is a witch hunt, where innocent people end up on the wrong end of an Internet lynch mob. What I'm about to wonder out-loud might be a bad or ill-conceived idea, but here goes: Would it be reasonable/helpful/worthwhile to have some centralized place where these kinds of harassments can be forwarded and grouped? E-mails with headers, tweets with screenshots of the full context, IRC messages with Nickserv registration info, etc., so that repeat offenders would have a form of evidence (and I stress evidence) stacked against them? Some form of "witness" system, where other recipients (Twitter users, IRC users, etc.) can sign off that they saw this take place? Basically, create a sort of tech industry predator list. Not everyone on there would be readily identifiable, but maybe some would be. I certainly would check it before hiring anyone, look up GitHub usernames and such, and it might help give people who don't experience this a better sense of just how terrible and prevalent this all is. So, good idea, at least in part? Terrible idea with too much potential for further abuse? Somewhere in-between?
  • byuu 11y ago
    Way too difficult and rife for abuse. First, we don't really have static IPs, not even static prefixes on IPv6. You could narrow someone down to their city by their host mask, but that can still be any of 5,000,000 people. And all they have to do is change their MAC address and renew their DHCP lease to have a new IP. Second, easy to submit faked screenshots to get someone flagged as a bad person. When you get (in)famous enough, trolls start using false flag operations against you. Best bet is probably a service where registration requires absolute proof of ID (Facebook's "I pinky promise I'm really $madeUpName" isn't enough.) But that still has issues with stolen logins, tricking the registration system, the harassment having your real identity known can cause, and it would keep away decent people who value their privacy. This is why we can't have nice things.
• sterl 11y ago
  Sounds like some people need prison sentences.
• Arid00 11y ago
  Everybody on the internet gets harassment. Especially those who twist facts and misrepresent arguments to push their own agenda. For example, if you get harassed because you do things like mentioned above and then say it's because you're a woman. And as alwyas, [evidence needed].
• Shamiq 11y ago
  that's so fucked. this sucks :<.
• astrocyte 11y ago
  This is not common and, given her focus area in tech, it just happens to be more pronounced among those individuals. Ever heard of 4chan? All it takes is one post of your info and you'll get a swarm of people descending on you... Linux/open source is full of such individuals. They do it to get a rise out of people and the internet is a nice anonymous vehicle to do it under. Has nothing to do w/ the broader industry of tech and more to do with a group of misfits who like to frazzle people for the lulz. Get the police involved and keep these unfounded broad based attacks of a whole industry to yourself. By making such statements, you're attacking people unjustly and doing the same thing to others that is being done to you. Techies are not rapist... I could care less if you're male/female. The industry is not fucked. You just got trolled by some dweebs on the internet. One pronounced incident and everyone is ready to cast stones at an industry.. If anything, this needs to stop. It's really getting old and, as someone who does their best to value/see people as equals as a good number in tech do, I'm getting tired of this sh*t.
  • Kapura 11y ago
    "Not common?" Really? This SEEMS pretty common. And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men. And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're doing. You say you're tired of this shit. How do you think these women feel? It's not you writing the tweets and emails, but if you become complacent and say "that's just how it is some times" you are a part of the problem. Never stop fighting for equal treatment. Never say it's OK.
    • astrocyte 11y ago
      This isn't pretty common nor are any of the off the wall comments and threats she's getting serious. It's called trolling. Have you been on the internet in the last decade? If you're dumb enough to let someone get under your skin, they will and will do so even more. I'm a minority. Do you know the kind of shit I've had to deal w/ in tech. Note the 'deal with'. Were supposedly in a society where women are demanding to be seen as equals just as men are. Guess what men have to do ? Deal w/ shit .. Shit we don't like on a daily basis. I don't get to create a blog post and have a swarm of women running to my defense? Why all the white knights when women have to go through shit? So, no.. there are standards that are still there. Standards by which men by and large defend women and treat them even above men. I'm a minority (African American) in tech. Yes, please lets have a sit down so you can tell me all about the kind of crap that occurs. I'm obviously oblivious to it all and have no perspective. It's not o.k but it's called trolling and this has jack shit to do w/ the tech industry and everything to do w/ the clown assery that is par for the course on the internet. So, I don't in anyway support her blog post. It is ignorant and ill-informed. Just think about it... You think men making six figures at prominent tech companies with a social life, a girlfriend, wife/daughters, and moms are sitting around typing out death threats and rape threats to some random woman in tech when they get home? No. This is not common. It has jack shit to do w/ the tech industry and everything to do w/ shock-and-awe trolling on the internet. It's 2015. Get up-to-date with what's happening on the internet and stop running to women's rescue every time they have to to go through shit. They have announced they want to be seen as equals and treated as men are .. So, let them deal with and overcome their own shit... trolling being the least of things to be all bent out of shape about. You disagree? Well, I guess some things haven't changed in society.. Namely that men by and large are still quite protective of women and hold them on high... Quite Contrary to what she and you are trying to portray...
• MollyR 11y ago
  I'm sorry to hear this. But I want to add a counter statistic. I've only had pleasant experiences from people trying to help me. The only shit I got in the industry was from a business manager trying to push our team into a death march. There are many factors out in there in the world. We need to put things back into context, rather than just saying things like "Our Industry is fucked". It feels like lately its too easy to forget the majority of people in tech (i've found) are incredibly decent human beings both men and women.
  • aaronem 11y ago
    That's true of the majority everywhere, I think, but the minority in this case has a disproportionately large impact -- for example, in running Kathy Sierra, a highly competent professional with a great deal to contribute, out of the industry entirely.
  • aklemm 11y ago
    Focusing on the minority is important, and kind of the point of article. The vocal minority in the tech world seem to be more unreasonably misbehaved than other industries. Imagine a woman in the medical industry or energy sector who gives conference talks and blogs...no way she's going to get this level of harassment.
    • aklemm 11y ago
      Would love to hear an explanation of where I'm wrong along with the downvotes.
  • purp 11y ago
    A counter-counter-example: do you believe the majority of the citizenry of Tombstone, Arizona, circa October 1881 were outlaws? And yet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfight_at_the_O.K._Corral https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfight_at_the_O.K._Corral I'm happy it hasn't impinged on your work life, and I hope it never does. And there's still folks being hurt by a malevolent minority in and around our industry. When does that majority of incredibly decent human beings, both men and women, start to care enough that they refuse to accept this any longer?
• chuckcode 11y ago
  The level of abuse the author has endured is ridiculous and she certainly has my sympathies. It reminds me of Louis CK's routine about why he doesn't give his kids cell phones (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c) which boils down to without seeing the other person they can't empathize about the effect their words will have on other people. I can't help but wonder how these pseudo-anonymous people will feel when they find out that they aren't all that anonymous in the long run. When gawker unmasked "Reddits biggest troll" Violentacrez he certainly had a change of feelings when he had to stand behind his words and actions[1]. Freedom of speech is one of our most important values and anonymity is an important source for social change and equality for all. Using these gifts to rain down insults on others rarely works out well though in person and likely won't work out well on the internet in the long run either. [1] http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the-biggest-troll-on-the-web http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the...
  • TTPrograms 11y ago
    I've sort of thought that this was a fairly consistent phenomenon since the origin of the internet, and that as more and more people come online they've been exposed to it and don't think it's reasonable. And to some extent they're right - it's not reasonable. Unfortunately being a public figure, especially by critiquing that phenomena, is going to attract more of that abuse. It pains me to see people call that sort of thing an issue with the "tech industry", though. Not that the tech industry is perfect, but that grouping in the internet trolls with people who care and want to fix the things that do need fixing is really counter-productive when you're trying to win a war of hearts and minds.
    • marcus_holmes 11y ago
      It's not so much grouping internet trolls with the tech industry, but that the tech industry is having a problem with its troll population. This might be purely because we're the first out of the trenches... we got the first trolls because we were the first to adopt online communication, and we have the first gamergate because we're still ahead of other industries/communities. I think we need to associate this sort of thing with the tech industry, because only then will we be able to fix it. Shrugging it off as "universal behaviour" will just mean no-one tries to do anything about it. In order to "un-fuck" this industry, we do need to accept that we do this. You (as an individual) may not and I may not, but we as an industry troll our women and minorities. And until we as an industry accept that we do this (and that it's a bad thing that we need to stop doing) it'll never stop.
• icu 11y ago
  I see a lot of comments here ranging from support to trolling... since this is HN there is more support and (at last check) only one troll. And that's really my point. No matter what, if you put yourself and your two cents into the public domain this stuff is part of the territory. Granted in a perfect world we wouldn't have such trolling or at the very least there would be some authority doing online moderation and sanctioning. However life isn't and will never be fair, let alone the fact that such policing of the net is just not sensible. So what to do really? Well I subscribe to the belief that an insult is an agreement between two people, if I don't agree, it's nullified, it doesn't even exist and I'm really not bothered. Clearly this stuff is getting to her and after reading her blog post it really seems like it's affecting her emotionally. At the risk of being blunt, I think this will just encourage the trolls. IMHO she either goes forward with a belief structure that deals with the trolling or she (sadly) takes a break from being in the public eye.
  • jessaustin 11y ago
    You have a good attitude about insults aimed at you. However, many people have lived lives that make such a healthy attitude impossible for them. I don't think progress is served by saying, "well it sucks that little girls are taught to stay 'safe' by taking the opinions of fuckwits seriously but I didn't teach them that so tough shit!" I doubt there's a magic bullet, but it would be better if we could build communication mechanisms that didn't expose women to the vilest excretions of the world's collective mental sewer.
    • icu 11y ago
      Hi, well firstly it saddens me somewhat that you think I was suggesting that, as you put it, "well it sucks that little girls are taught to stay 'safe' by taking the opinions of fuckwits seriously but I didn't teach them that so tough shit!" Honestly for me it's not about sex. I believe men and women are in fact equal and anything less than that is ignorance. As for a 'silver bullet', there won't ever be one. Best I can do is teach my son gender equality.
      • jessaustin 11y ago
• Mithaldu 11y ago
  I have nothing but admiration and applause for Jessie's stance. I do hope she does everything she can to get those perpetrating such deeds into the hands of law enforcement.
• pedalpete 11y ago
  I'm currently working in a team that is 50% women, and I'm amazed at how many stories they have of previous work experiences and the culture of acceptance in medium sized companies. I hope Jessie doesn't give up. Not only for the sake of our industry, but also for the sake of girls who want to make it in this industry and not have to put up with what jessie has had to put up with. Her (or any person) having to leave our industry because of any sort of harassment hurts the rest of us the most. Rather than going the law enforcement harassment route, is there any way we as an industry can stand up for Jessie and the rest of the woman who are being abused by a few assholes? Just yesterday I met a friends niece who wants to become a game developer. She's only 14 now, but what a shame it would be for her to give up on her dream because some idiotic moron, mentally incapable of forming real normal relationships, has ruined our industry for her. This doesn't need police action (though nothing wrong with that), it needs us to be outspoken and supportive. Maybe also a bit creative in how we handle this. I'm all for finding ways of kicking these offensive guys out and bringing more women in.
  • nightcracker 11y ago
    This absolutely needs police action. Regardless of what your stance is on unwanted sexual attention, sending death threats is not acceptable.
    • deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    • DaveSapien 11y ago
      Death threats are illegal in most countries. So yes, police action.
    • corysama 11y ago
      Agreed. What Jessie is dealing with is classic internet trolls. They don't give a damn about "Women in Tech", her or anything else. All that interests them is finding a target to dig a reaction out of "for the lulz". They do it because it gives them little endorphin pops to think about how upset their victim must be and because it's very low risk. That's all there is to it. If there was any perception of risk in their activity, they wouldn't do it. Making it clear that "this is simply unacceptable" will only encourage trolls. They aren't ignorant. They don't even have an agenda. They're simply selfish. The only way to discourage them is to introduce concrete risk to the unwanted activity.
• ChuckMcM 11y ago
  Outrageous behavior, and I'm glad Jessie is not giving into it. I can't imagine why someone would get death threats over being a female engineer.
• pnt12 11y ago
  I do not know the author of the blog but that's horrible. No one should have to face that. Unfortunately, behind the anonimity of the internet, trolls and disgusting people will harass pretty much anyone and there's not much anyone can do. Best of luck Jessie.
• 88e282102ae2e5b 11y ago
  I just want to understand why people do this. If some men were afraid of losing their jobs because of a big influx of women I'd at least comprehend (but definitely not agree with) that behavior, but it's a job free-for-all now and seems like it always will be, so I just can't see what the motivation could possibly be. If they're just pure sociopaths, why don't they harass men this way as well?
  • AdeptusAquinas 11y ago
    Because they're insecure and want attention - if they can elicit a response from her then a woman has acknowledged their existence. Or because they feel innately that they are superior to women because they are male, and then cant comprehend that she is more prominent than they are, which makes them angry. Immaturity essentially, given teeth by the anonymous power of the net and some distorted belief in freedom of speech (on the part of the companies that should be excising this crap).
    • __z 11y ago
      > Or because they feel innately that they are superior to women because they are male, and then cant comprehend that she is more prominent than they are, which makes them angry. http://www.sorrywatch.com/2015/04/05/everyone-deserves-a-second-chance/ http://www.sorrywatch.com/2015/04/05/everyone-deserves-a-sec... Mo’ne Davis got famous for being the first girl to pitch a shutout in the Little League World Series at 13. She also plays basketball and football - she is very talented athletically. She appeared on talk shows and the cover of Sports Illustrated. Disney announced that they were going to make a movie about her. A grown man (college baseball player Joey Casselberry) reacted to this with the following tweet: "Disney is making a movie about Mo’Ne Davis? WHAT A JOKE. That slut got rocked by Nevada" A grown man called a 13 year old a slut. A slut! Because she was getting well deserved attention.
      • cafard 11y ago
        Athletics tends to support arrested development. I have a hard time regarding a college baseball player, even one who almost certainly is taller than I am and packs a lot more lean mass, as a "grown man." I do hope that the athletic director at his school had a long talk with him that will make him think a long time before doing anything remotely like this again.
• rpcope1 11y ago
  If what she claims is true, it must take some rather large amounts of wherewithal to continue in this industry, for which I certainly applaud her. It's also rather hard to imagine or contend the manner in which many in our industry behave; I certainly know that if my girlfriend or sister had been treated like this, I'd certainly feel rather violently inclined (as human nature often leads one to be) to end that behavior. You know, while I certainly don't always agree with the spirit in which we try and enforce things like diversity and often think that victim-hood is taken a little too far, it's perhaps harder to understand the filthy, trashy and rather base individuals that would treat Ms. Frazelle in this manner. It doesn't give me a lot of hope sometimes for my gender or for our culture as a whole; my thoughts go out to Ms. Frazelle that things get better for her.
  • deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
• aaronem 11y ago
  Here's the part where I play a serious suggestion off as a joke, because I know no one will take it seriously no matter how I put it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBWbpTJRqk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBWbpTJRqk And here's the part where I address obvious arguments against it, to try to save everyone some time: 0. You're seriously suggesting that people who threaten, sexually harass, or otherwise behave toward women in tech, in such fashion as to (at the very least) necessitate posts like Ms. Frazelle's, should be doxxed, confronted in person, and beaten. Doxxed and confronted in person, certainly. But let's not lose all sense of nuance; I think beatings for a first offense are a little disproportionate, unless the first offense is itself exceptional. 1. This is vigilantism! No, this is a community choosing to police itself in a more vigorous fashion than has previously been the rule. Vigilantes, historically speaking, tend to (literally and figuratively) shoot first and ask questions later, if at all. I think that's wildly disproportionate here, and that the mere suggestion of potential real-life consequences, for this sort of malbehavior, will almost certainly produce a remarkable change in the extent of bullshit that women in our industry find aimed in their direction. 2. This is a problem for the police to handle! Let me know when they start! 3. Doxxing is a crime! Some actions which might be taken in the course of a doxxing attempt are crimes, to be sure. But you might be surprised how much you can lawfully, with a little effort, learn about someone who doesn't put a lot of thought into anonymizing himself because, after all, who's going to come after him for something as trivial as trying to chase someone out of an entire industry because she happens to be female? 4. Assault is a crime! Oh, certainly. I think it's entirely possible to have a reasonable conversation with someone, in the course of which is offered advice on patterns of behavior which would be frankly better for everyone involved, without trespassing into the realm of assault proper. 5. Battery is a crime! It sure is. And, of course, all dry sarcasm and deadpan humor aside, I would absolutely never encourage anyone to commit a crime. On the other hand, I grew up in a place and a time where anyone who behaved in too excessively unacceptable a manner did so at risk of receiving more than merely verbal chastisement from the members of his community; put simply, someone who made himself enough of a stench in the nostrils of his fellows, for long enough, could expect them eventually to respond to his misbehavior in vigorous enough fashion to leave bruises. In no small part as a result, the place and time where I grew up were, and the place largely remains, known for the politeness and courtesy characterizing social interaction there, and such methods as I allude to above are hardly ever actually necessary in practice; for the most part, the simple knowledge that such a response might occur suffices to prevent it actually needing to. Granted, very few in the tech industry have personal experience of such robust social interactions, and I think I don't go too far in saying that there's a certain squeamishness around the subject. On the other hand, given that nothing else yet tried has worked worth a damn, I think we'd be short-sighted to dismiss such ideas entirely out of hand. 6. Two wrongs don't make a right! Perhaps, but I've never understood the perspective from which it is wrong for members of a given society to correct misbehavior which fails to live up to that society's avowed standards. Of course, given the rather pathetic extent of our industry's accomplishments in preventing the kind of behavior under discussion here, anyone could be excused for imagining that, collectively, we don't give as much of a damn about this kind of abhorrent behavior as we claim we do. 7. Women don't need this sort of white-knighting from men in the industry! Perish the thought! Frankly, I am too often embarrassed and ashamed to admit myself a member of an industry where behavior such as this is acceptable to any extent -- even by the people who actually engage in it. That I should, even in jest, feel myself moved to write a comment like this one, is frankly mortifying. Put simply, if our industry were composed of the professionals we flatter ourselves it is, I wouldn't have written this and you wouldn't be reading it. If you feel yourself personally insulted by that statement -- good! You should, because you, too, bear a share of the responsibility for letting such abhorrent behavior run effectively unchecked. There's too much of that behavior, too widely spread, for anyone to argue that it's "just a few bad apples". Our industry has a problem. As members of that industry, we have a responsibility to address it. Some of us are trying to live up to that responsibility. Most of us aren't. I'd like to see that change. 8. But this kind of response will just make things worse! Even if you do confront this scum in person, they'll just take it out on the women they're already abusing. That's not impossible, but I think it's also not at all likely. It's long been recognized that anonymity is tremendously empowering, for good or ill; the perceived absence of risk seems to be what drives a lot of the venom we see directed at women in our industry. Too, if anonymity weren't a major enabler here, we would see the people who spew this filth doing so under their actual identities, and likely in public, as well. That being the case, I think taking that cloak of anonymity away should have a very strong effect on the people who engage in this kind of behavior. In short, I should think it'd scare the hell out of them! It's one thing, after all, to talk shit when you know you won't ever have to live up to it. It is quite another to talk shit when you can be reasonably sure that you will. In my own experience, and in my observations of others, this latter condition tends to result in a healthy degree of circumspection, something I think is long overdue here. 9. But you can't change people's minds this way, only their behavior! They'll still find ways to mistreat their female colleagues -- they just won't be able to be as overt about it. True enough, but also an example of the perfect as an enemy of the good. And besides -- honestly, if someone's an asshole enough to do this kind of shit, he's already using whatever other methods of abuse he has at hand. Just because we can't take all of them away at once doesn't mean that taking away a cheap, easy, and disproportionately filthy one isn't worth doing. -- And, of course, there are all kinds of hairy details I haven't addressed here, not least because I'd like to think I can keep at least one or two people reading all the way to the end. Lest we forget, this comment is written entirely in jest, and any extent to which you take seriously anything herein is entirely your responsibility. Even if you think it's totally stupid and wrongheaded, though, I'd take it as a favor if you respond by offering a suggestion which a) hasn't been already tried and found useless, b) offers some prospect of success, and c) isn't just more of us all sitting around beating our gums about how terrible this is, while largely not bothering to try to do a damn thing about it. Come on! This is our industry. This kind of rampant shitty behavior is our responsibility. It's up to us to find something effective to do about it, and do it. Sure, I've made a stupid suggestion, but at least I've made a suggestion. If you want to tell me my suggestion is stupid, great! When you're done doing that, make a sensible one.
• deleted 11y ago
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• Kenji 11y ago
  I already thought this was something of importance, like, talking about a bubble or concerning trends in the industry. What I got was an emotional rant of someone who got trolled. Our digital media have more than enough possibilities to blacklist the baddies, or even whitelist the people you want to be in contact with. Don't look at things you don't want to see, nobody is forcing you to.
  • lazzle 11y ago
    Bet I can force you to look at this reply
• bcg1 11y ago
  You can say 'this isn't a problem with our industry, it is just internet trolls' but people outside our industry aren't going to docker conferences or paying attention to presenters at them. It might not be YOU that does this type of thing, but someone you work with is. You know who I'm talking about and you don't shun them or expose them... and until you do, author is correct, this industry is fucked.
  • JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    But how do any of us know what online presence others we work with have? I don't pay any attention to what my co-workers do on their own time. They may be jerks in quite a few arenas; it can be quite invisible to me.
    • bcg1 11y ago
      My comment does not apply to those for whom it does not apply.
• alaroldai 11y ago
  Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgusted and threatened. That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem. (also, for anyone wondering whether the number of people affected really is "significant", I would consider even one person to be a significant number) I also get really angry at posts like "This has never happened to me, so I'm sure it's all ok". This may come as a surprise, but individual experiences are not universal. That something has never happened to you doesn't mean it's never happened to anyone else. And if you're getting tired of seeing posts like this, don't complain about the people making the posts. Complain about the people harassing them. It may seem counterintuitive, but the fastest and most effective way to stop posts like this turning up is actually to make more of them, until the harassment and abuse stop. "This happens all the time" is never a valid excuse.
  • bsder 11y ago
    > Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." I'm tired of people whining in a blog post instead of calling the police. Death threats and violence threats like this are unacceptable. CALL THE POLICE. After a couple of high-profile cases put these kinds of assholes in jail it will stop.
    • deleted 11y ago
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    • cjbprime 11y ago
      > Death threats and violence threats like this are unacceptable. CALL THE POLICE. After a couple of high-profile cases put these kinds of assholes in jail it will stop. What evidence do you have that the police will do something? We could look at people like Brianna Wu and Anita Sarkeesian, who I feel confident we'll agree have experienced massive and credible death threats. They report the threats they get to the police and FBI. Who's in jail as a result?
• corysama 11y ago
  There is a small culture of people online who make a hobby of harassment. They don't have an agenda. They aren't representative of anything. They're not distinguished by being part of any particular industry, race, sexuality or economic status. They are simply selfish individuals. They do it because it gives them little endorphin pops to think about how upset their victim must be and because it is a very low risk activity. That's all there is to it. They don't particularly care about "women in tech" or "women in gaming" to any extent beyond the fact that the controversy gives them a hook they can latch on to dig a reaction out of their victim. Or infinitely better: the press! The only way to prevent this activity is to attach a small but concrete level of risk to it. Quoting the article that chuckcode linked about Reddit's "Violentacrez": > "My wife is disabled. I got a home and a mortgage, and if this hits the fan, I believe this will affect negatively on my employment," he said. "I do my job, go home watch TV, and go on the internet. I just like riling people up in my spare time."
  • vonklaus 11y ago
    > There is a small culture of people online who make a hobby of harassment. They don't have an agenda. They aren't representative of anything. They're not distinguished by being part of any particular industry, race, sexuality or economic status. They are simply selfish individuals I wish more people understood this. It is a big problem with no solution. We can keep spamposting these tropes of #gurlgamers and #womenintech but the problem isn't really that these arenas are overtly hostile to women. The problem is that if you are in these arenas you are just more visible to the type of people that enjoy harassing people. I think doxxing is one of the biggest sins on the internet. Anonymity and privacy are fundamental pieces of American and Internet culture. Doxxing someone is really the only way to stop these things happening, and even then they must actually care about what society thinks of them. Also, if you are wrong you could ruin an innocent persons life. So no easy solutions. Explaining tolerance and these angry women first campaigns alienate people from the causes. They don't harass women and are normal people. The people that actually do bad things couldn't care any less about this "education" and the flamewars this stuff starts make it all the more funny to them. This is an insanely hard problem to solve, and it might actually not be possible to fix. The answer might be to have thick skin and hire a security company to put alarms and cameras in your house. It isn't fair to someone like the subject of this article that is an intelligent, attractive, hard working person to be punished for having these attributes, but it is an answer even if not a great one.
• deleted 11y ago
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• ap22213 11y ago
  I've worked with some weird ass people over the years, so this post is, sadly, not surprising.
• shoeluckpotland 11y ago
  I have a small theory about harassment in tech. Posting from a throwaway, as I have been threatened myself. I know many women in technology. Some have experienced some truly vile online harassment. Almost all of which is conducted online, anonymously. Not in-person. Instead, it is rape threats via email. Tweets from pseudo-anonymous accounts. Almost never something that can be attached to a real person. I do not doubt that women receive these threats. What I doubt is the origin. Classical hacker culture is very welcoming to hackers from all walks of life. It is, after all, a culture of misfits. People that were rejected from society for any number of reasons, and that found a home in technology. This is not a culture of bullies, and tech people do not behave like hyper-misogynistic teenagers in-person, whether or not women are present. Socially awkward, sure, but outright hostile? Very unlikely. We know that there is a small group of hyper-activists. They are well known for online bullying, going as far as to contact employers and families with threats. For lack of a better term, we're going to use the common internet definition: Social Justice Warriors (SJWs). I think these people are the source of all this harassment and grief. The SJWs are the ones waging a harassment campaign against women in tech. Think about it: Women are a minority in tech, one that is generally respected in-person. You could never get people on-board with an extremist view on things like political correctness, gender quotas, that sort of thing... unless they felt like they were under attack by an actively hostile and misogynistic industry. It is very easy to manufacture that feeling via anonymous rape and death threats. Build a sense of terror and hostility via online trolling, and then use that fear to bring women -- and a vocal number of their male defenders -- over to the side that promises to protect them. It doesn't take a large conspiracy. Just a few dedicated trolls, and we even know they exist. Same thing as the outrage over the "whites only" stickers that appeared overnight in Austin -- they were not posted by racists or the KKK, but by anti-racist activists. Thoughts?
  • rdrake98 11y ago
    Agreed. And this technique of divide and rule has been used elsewhere. The key word being rule.
  • ctide 11y ago
    You forgot the '#gamergate' at the end of your post.
• shockzzz 11y ago
  The reason why "trolls gonn' troll" isn't an acceptable excuse is that straight white men don't get told that people are jerking off to their conference talks. Just google "Kathy Sierra" and see why.
  • brickmort 11y ago
    just wondering... why are you singling out only white males? I'm a non-white male.
    • shockzzz 11y ago
      Same reason I mentioned sexual orientation - they factor into how people are treated. And yes, different permutations are affected in their own unique ways as well. For the record, I am also a non-white male.
  • tomjen3 11y ago
    Nope. As a white man it would be a compliment if somebody wanked of my conference talks.
• jrub 11y ago
  There are so many people in the tech industry that have no business being there, that suck and have no passion, that are assholes and aren't willing to teach newcomers. The fact that women in tech is an issue or that women get harassed by men for being in the industry when there are more glaring issues is an absolute mystery. Men that harass women for being in the tech field are juvenile. If anyone talks to my daughter like that, or sends her messages like that...God help them.
• eruditely 11y ago
  requires proof to damn an entire industry, give me a break
• plorg 11y ago
  Given the responses I see here, it seems pretty obvious that this is a 'problem with the industry' regardless of whether it's a problem with or that sprouts from the internet. It seems evident that Jess has experienced terrible things in the process of performing her job. That she would post so adamantly to her blog suggests that the problem is not going away, and she is probably not receiving much of a helpful response from the people around her, presumably including her colleagues. The obvious implication is that as male-dominated industry, most of her (male) colleagues are not familiar with the type of abuse she is receiving and, when they hear of it, are dismissive, taking an attitude of 'not my problem/job description' rather than offering support or assistance. If that doesn't make it an industry problem, I don't know what would.
  • shykes 11y ago
    Hi, I'm a colleague of Jess. I entirely agree with everything you said about the industry as a whole. My thoughts in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836573 But you should know that her colleagues (me included) take this super seriously, and so does our employer. We are doing everything we can to support her, and to make the attacks stop. We also want to contribute to fixing the problem beyond this one instance, and are looking for the best way to do that. If you have ideas I would love to hear them!
    • plorg 11y ago
      My apologies for suggesting that you would be callous and unsupportive of a colleague in such a stressful situation. It's easier to understand how this connects the industry to such abuses by bringing one's company into the discussion, but you are right that it is unfair to you and her other colleagues who I know no better than Jess herself. But I'm glad to hear that you would take this seriously. And Jess sounds like a hell of a person. I know it would be difficult for me to handle the kind of abuse she describes.
• shykes 11y ago
  I am a colleague of Jess, and have witnessed her dealing with this ordeal. She is a badass and doesn't need anyone to speak on her behalf. But some aspects of her experience are relevant to all of us and we have to talk about it. 1. If this is happening to you and you haven't spoken to anyone about it - please do. There is a specialized support group at https://www.crashoverridenetwork.net https://www.crashoverridenetwork.net . Even if you feel you can handle it yourself, it will help spread awareness. Part of the problem is that not enough people are aware of just how common these attacks are. 2. This is real. She is not making it up or dramatizing it to "get attention". How incredible is it that in 2015 this needs to be said? In fact she has downplayed the whole thing for months (months of continuous harrassment!). At first I didn't understand why - but seeing some of the reactions here, sadly, I think I understand. 3. Yes, law enforcement is involved. Those people are breaking the law and must face the consequences. The good news is that they are likely to get caught. Unlike other forms of cyber-crime, this particular crime id actually quite risky if the victim is determined and well-supported. The people tracking them down are well funded and have a great track record. Speaking for her employer, we will spare no expense to make sure the people responsible get what they deserve. 4. In addition to law enforcement, if you know of a legal way to help make those people regret what they did, please contact me. Our employer will foot the bill - or if it's really too expensive for a single private company to fund, I will find money elsewhere. Forgive my French but: let's make the motherfuckers pay. This also applies to increasing the risk for future crimes like this. 5. It's true that this kind of trolling is probably not a product of the tech industry itself. It is a deeper problem that will haunt us for some time, like racism, drug abuse or road rage. HOWEVER, after reading some of the comments here, without a doubt our industry is contributing to the problem through ignorance and sometimes plain stupidity. If you're downplaying this as "just trolling", asserting that gender has nothing to do with it, complaining that women are getting unfair attention, or assuming the victim is just trying to get attention: I'm sorry to say you are part of the problem, in the same way that climate change skeptics are part of the problem. You are not voicing a valid opinion; you are ignoring facts collected over years of research and professional experience by people who know better than you. And in the process you are forcing us to keep debating the reality of the problem, when we should be focused on fixing it. So when Jess says "this industry is fucked", I say: she is right. We're allowing our fellow technologists to be victimized right under our noses, and we're basically doing nothing. So let's fix it. 6. With the help of the comic artist Laurel (who has also experienced harrassment) we made a T-shirt to raise awareness. We're going to print and share as many as possible, but if you want to pribt your own, here's the hi-res PSD: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ikdlu6gavn669l/s-dockercon-harrassment-real.psd?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ikdlu6gavn669l/s-dockercon-harras...
• throwaway3880 11y ago
  I used to engage to in this sort of behavior to some extent. I grew up with a repressed sexuality and no knowledge of how to relate to women. Then, I suffered endless social rejection. I spent all my time in front of computers, and got good at programming. We need to educate people (1) How to relate to other, respectfully (2) How to get over their anger (3) Tell them this behavior is unacceptable Tech has many misfits. There are many guys, who've spent their lives in front of computer screens, and haven't developed healthy ways of relating to other people. Yet, they can still be great at technology with the power that brings.
  • MetaCosm 11y ago
    Thank you. I have long wanted to speak to someone who admits to doing this type of thing as it is very hard for me to understand. I realize it might be painful to relive a bit, but would you be willing to go into some more detail (it is a throwaway anyway). What did you do, what were you thinking as you did it, and how could someone have reached you sooner to do 1/2/3?
• tzs 11y ago
  Several thoughts, some reasonable and some probably stupid, split into separate comments so the reasonable parts can be discussed and the stupid parts torn apart separately:
  • tzs 11y ago
    Part 4. We need to start including some internet human interaction training in high school or elementary school. This should cover two things. First, it should cover how the person on the other end of an internet interaction is another person, with feelings, and so we should keep that in mind. It should cover how it is easy to forget that, and so say things online we'd never say to someone's face. Second, since that isn't going to stop the problem, people need to be warned about the jerks who like to harm people for the sake of harming them (see part 1), told that they are likely to encounter such people at some point, and get shit directed at them. They need to be told to not take it personally, the senders are not mentally well, and just filter their messages out.
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  • tzs 11y ago
    Part 3. Since the power that the attackers have in these messages is the reaction of the recipient, it might be possible to turn this around. In part 2, I suggested filtering and trashing (or sharing for research into de-anonymizing the senders). How about going beyond ignoring the empty idiots and embracing their idiocy? Make a game of this. Have a scoring systems where you get points based on the number of threats you receive a month, with bonus points for photoshops and such. The person with the most cumulative points for the year could get an award and a nice prize for being best at annoying internet idiots. This is reminiscent of one way that the KKK was fought. The "Superman" radio show in the late '40s ran a 16-episode story in which Superman took on the KKK. They presented the KKK as an organization of ridiculous people with silly and stupid rituals, and it greatly hurt the KKK.
• owly 11y ago
  Forward their comments to the police AND their mothers.
• daodedickinson 11y ago
  Is it wrong to develop technology that facilitates this behavior?
• ropable 11y ago
  Reading posts like this leaves me feeling angry (that it happens at all, this day and age), bewildered (what kind of callous jerkwad sends death/rape threats to a stranger over editorial content) and helpless (what can I do to help or prevent this from happening further?) I give credit that there is a problem. I genuinely want to help improve things (my daughter might want to follow her old man into this field one day). What can an unassuming white developer do beyond publicly stating "This is unacceptable", and setting the right example of personal behaviour?
  • zallen 11y ago
    That is a very good start.
• pikachu_is_cool 11y ago
  > I’ve gotten hundreds of private messages on IRC and emails about sex, rape, and death threats. Is this actually true, or are you over-exaggerating? I know of other girls in tech that are pretty decently well-known and don't get nearly that much harassment. But then again, they don't post their faces, so idk.
• LGBT_2000 11y ago
  This is disgusting.
• LGBT_2000 11y ago
  It's offensive how whenever topics of bigotry and hatred in tech come up, the ensuing conversation is always dominated by regular commenters (typically privileged white males) giving their two cents on something they've never experienced and have no way of relating to. Here's a radical idea: if you're actually interested in supporting and being an ally of women, people of color, LGBTQs and other minorities DO sit back, let them speak and listen. DO NOT inject your own unsubstantiated and unhelpful opinions into a topic you by definition cannot relate to.
  • tomjen3 11y ago
    You are new here, so I will just say that this isn't tumblr and we do not categorise people based on the color of their skin, nor take kindly to those who do.
• vparikh 11y ago
  I am convinced that this happens because the anonymity that the Internet provides. And so the best way to combat this is to post the incidents on a public site. Blow away the anonymity and these people will retreat like the cowards they are. I would set up a website where people can post these - sort of like the previous F*cked Company website, but I would have to look into legal issues if any that were relevant.
• dummy7953 11y ago
  I'm convinced that there is a highly vocal group (of young men, most likely) that are hell-bent on breaking Internet communities and even corporeal communities with their grotesqueries. And when they're challenged, they howl "but you're censoring my free speech!"
• daveloyall 11y ago
  I have read a small percentage of the comments on this page. I conclude that some of the "blame" conversation is rooted in guilt. In the history of this messy topic, some of you have only posted one mean comment. Maybe you even found and posted some content for dox. Now, you're finally realizing that this shit is real. Hell, you're older now. And you're panicking. You are refusing to believe that you have been part of a big, nasty problem. Well, knock it off. Pull yourself together! Nobody is perfect and none of us truly know what we are doing. Nobody is even going to ask you to apologize. But we WILL and ARE asking you to stop resisting. Stop defending, stop making excuses, and stop passing the buck. Just fall in line, again. It's not OVER just because you have seen the light. There's still actual monsters out there. Fall in, there's work to do.
  • AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    I've been a jerk, to women, at work, a few times. Never sexual harassment, though. And I'm trying to never do it again. And if I see someone else do it, I hope I'll call them on it.
    • daveloyall 11y ago
      Not to put too fine a point on it, but... Sometimes people are jerks. It happens. The issue here is systematic jerkiness towards sentient beings based on whether they have an A or B dongle. ...It boggles the mind!
• jongraehl 11y ago
  1. condolences for some horrifying abuse (please report to cops/FBI/etc) 2. "this industry?" understandable feeling but really a wild accusation that's part of a larger media craze. why shouldn't we analyze the horrifying behavior described in terms of public figures and celebrity in general? what is it about tech in particular? 3. conditional on "this industry" being worse than others, are the causes of abuse toward women who are public figures different from abuse toward men who are the same - relevant as we try to fix what is broken in particular about "this industry" to reduce unexpectedly high abuse toward women and/or men.
• 505 11y ago
  Don't give up, Jessie.