9 ms·

Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Do you feel an obligation to pay for the debts of Greece? No? Then why would a German, or me as a Dutchm

Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Do you feel an obligation to pay for the debts of Greece? No? Then why would a German, or me as a Dutchman feel such an obligation?

tptacek 11y ago
No, but then my country is not part of a decades-long effort to unify the continent it resides on under a single financial and regulatory regime; we finished doing that roughly 150 years ago. As a result, we don't have to "bail out" Mississippi so much as continually pay for its mismanagement. And so, again, isn't "paying for mismanagement" part of what you sign up for when you try to unify Europe?
- michaelt 11y ago
  European politics is funny - EU treaties talk about "ever closer union" and the Euro was deliberately designed with no exit mechanisms; but at the same time politicians never talk about forming a "united states of europe" as it's deeply unpopular with voters. In other words, if you ask whether the EU aims for a single financial and regulatory regime the answer is "yes and no"
  - orbifold 11y ago
    Plenty of politicians in fact do talk about a United States of Europe and it is an ideology that is instilled in future elites to be in political scholarship programs etc.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- cperciva 11y ago
  No, but then my country is not part of a decades-long effort to unify the continent it resides on under a single financial and regulatory regime; we finished doing that roughly 150 years ago. No, you tried to do that 203 years ago, but we burnt down your White House. I'll give you that you unified somewhat less than half of the continent though. ;-)
  - cpach 11y ago
    Touché! :D
- roblfrieburg 11y ago
  > when you try to unify Europe? Very few current EU countries signed up for a "unification of Europe", it started as a trading bloc and escalated from there.
- honest_joe 11y ago
  USA is totally different from the EU. And that's the point.
calibraxis 11y ago
I’m from the US and say hell yes, we should pay Greek debt. We supported their authoritarian governments post-WWII. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%9374#American_influence_in_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E...) As for Germany... as Piketty told Die Zeit, Germany never repaid its debts and has "no standing to lecture other nations." They're hilariously wagging their fingers at far more responsible people. (https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-ha...)
- tptacek 11y ago
  You can't drop the mic on "Germany never paid the debts the Nazis racked up", because Germany is not insolvent, and Greece is. Greece has not only a large national debt, but also an ongoing primary deficit. It literally cannot pay for the public sector it commits itself to running. What that implies to external financing negotiations is that even if Greece's debt is forgiven (economists from across the spectrum seem to agree this should happen), unless Greece adjusts its fiscal policy --- inconveniently, to something more akin to what Germany is demanding --- the bailout just delays the inevitable.
  - calibraxis 11y ago
    You responded 2 mins after I posted. Did you read the Die Zeit interview with Piketty which I linked to? What do you think about points like: "I am much more afraid that the conservatives, especially in Germany, are about to destroy Europe and the European idea, all because of their shocking ignorance of history. [...] Look at the history of national debt: Great Britain, Germany, and France were all once in the situation of today’s Greece, and in fact had been far more indebted. The first lesson that we can take from the history of government debt is that we are not facing a brand new problem. There have been many ways to repay debts, and not just one, which is what Berlin and Paris would have the Greeks believe." Or how about the fast way for a state to leave delinquency: "Germany proved it in the 20th century. Essentially, it consists of three components: inflation, a special tax on private wealth, and debt relief." Have you read David Graeber's book which he recommends elsewhere ("Debt: The First 5000 Years") which covers how debt is just a promise, and it's fetishized (more than say promises from politicians to their constituents) when it's a promise from the weak to the powerful?
alkonaut 11y ago
The reason the U.S. economy can work at all is because people in the union accept large continuous transfers of money from rich to poor states. For the Euro to work, the rich member countries must be willing to accept massive transfers from countries like France and Germany, to the Mediterranean countries. In addition, the ECB must be a lender of last resort. Seeing as none of these criteria are currently (formally) met, the Euro can't function. The only way it could work was if the economies of the member states quickly converged. They didn't.
- SneakerXZ 11y ago
  In U.S. you have a thing called fiscal policy. We don't have that in EU so that's why the thing you propose cannot work for us.
aikah 11y ago
> Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Does the term European Union mean anything to you? Does the term common currency mean anything to you? If Greece fails, Do you really think Germans won't suffer any consequences?
- woodpanel 11y ago
  Yes, the Germans won't suffer any consequences. The markets did not crashed yet, and they most probably won't because no sane private entity in the world was lending Greece any money. Except EU-minus-1's tax payers representatives. But then again, I was talking about sane entities...
  - twobits 11y ago
    But they were lending greece. And getting nice profit. When TSHTF, politicians made that private debt public.

Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Do you feel an obligation to pay for the debts of Greece? No? Then why would a German, or me as a Dutchman feel such an obligation?

tptacek 11y ago

No, but then my country is not part of a decades-long effort to unify the continent it resides on under a single financial and regulatory regime; we finished doing that roughly 150 years ago. As a result, we don't have to "bail out" Mississippi so much as continually pay for its mismanagement. And so, again, isn't "paying for mismanagement" part of what you sign up for when you try to unify Europe?

michaelt 11y ago
European politics is funny - EU treaties talk about "ever closer union" and the Euro was deliberately designed with no exit mechanisms; but at the same time politicians never talk about forming a "united states of europe" as it's deeply unpopular with voters. In other words, if you ask whether the EU aims for a single financial and regulatory regime the answer is "yes and no"
- orbifold 11y ago
  Plenty of politicians in fact do talk about a United States of Europe and it is an ideology that is instilled in future elites to be in political scholarship programs etc.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
cperciva 11y ago
No, but then my country is not part of a decades-long effort to unify the continent it resides on under a single financial and regulatory regime; we finished doing that roughly 150 years ago. No, you tried to do that 203 years ago, but we burnt down your White House. I'll give you that you unified somewhat less than half of the continent though. ;-)
- cpach 11y ago
  Touché! :D
roblfrieburg 11y ago
> when you try to unify Europe? Very few current EU countries signed up for a "unification of Europe", it started as a trading bloc and escalated from there.
honest_joe 11y ago
USA is totally different from the EU. And that's the point.

calibraxis 11y ago

I’m from the US and say hell yes, we should pay Greek debt. We supported their authoritarian governments post-WWII. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%9374#American_influence_in_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E...) As for Germany... as Piketty told Die Zeit, Germany never repaid its debts and has "no standing to lecture other nations." They're hilariously wagging their fingers at far more responsible people. (https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-ha...)

tptacek 11y ago
You can't drop the mic on "Germany never paid the debts the Nazis racked up", because Germany is not insolvent, and Greece is. Greece has not only a large national debt, but also an ongoing primary deficit. It literally cannot pay for the public sector it commits itself to running. What that implies to external financing negotiations is that even if Greece's debt is forgiven (economists from across the spectrum seem to agree this should happen), unless Greece adjusts its fiscal policy --- inconveniently, to something more akin to what Germany is demanding --- the bailout just delays the inevitable.
- calibraxis 11y ago
  You responded 2 mins after I posted. Did you read the Die Zeit interview with Piketty which I linked to? What do you think about points like: "I am much more afraid that the conservatives, especially in Germany, are about to destroy Europe and the European idea, all because of their shocking ignorance of history. [...] Look at the history of national debt: Great Britain, Germany, and France were all once in the situation of today’s Greece, and in fact had been far more indebted. The first lesson that we can take from the history of government debt is that we are not facing a brand new problem. There have been many ways to repay debts, and not just one, which is what Berlin and Paris would have the Greeks believe." Or how about the fast way for a state to leave delinquency: "Germany proved it in the 20th century. Essentially, it consists of three components: inflation, a special tax on private wealth, and debt relief." Have you read David Graeber's book which he recommends elsewhere ("Debt: The First 5000 Years") which covers how debt is just a promise, and it's fetishized (more than say promises from politicians to their constituents) when it's a promise from the weak to the powerful?

alkonaut 11y ago

The reason the U.S. economy can work at all is because people in the union accept large continuous transfers of money from rich to poor states. For the Euro to work, the rich member countries must be willing to accept massive transfers from countries like France and Germany, to the Mediterranean countries. In addition, the ECB must be a lender of last resort. Seeing as none of these criteria are currently (formally) met, the Euro can't function. The only way it could work was if the economies of the member states quickly converged. They didn't.

SneakerXZ 11y ago
In U.S. you have a thing called fiscal policy. We don't have that in EU so that's why the thing you propose cannot work for us.

aikah 11y ago

> Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Does the term European Union mean anything to you? Does the term common currency mean anything to you? If Greece fails, Do you really think Germans won't suffer any consequences?

woodpanel 11y ago
Yes, the Germans won't suffer any consequences. The markets did not crashed yet, and they most probably won't because no sane private entity in the world was lending Greece any money. Except EU-minus-1's tax payers representatives. But then again, I was talking about sane entities...
- twobits 11y ago
  But they were lending greece. And getting nice profit. When TSHTF, politicians made that private debt public.