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I haven't down voted you because this has been on the tip of my tongue but I've held it back because it's such a low-ball response which achieves nothing. I thi

by jwdunne 11y ago

I haven't down voted you because this has been on the tip of my tongue but I've held it back because it's such a low-ball response which achieves nothing. I think this whole "look at X" is why we're in this chaos. We can point fingers this way ad infinitum but it's only served to keep the EU in stalemate over this issue.

atmosx 11y ago
You're free to down-vote me, I don't care :-) I can assure no hard feelings about it... I had expressed many unpopular opinions on HN and had been downvoted many times, never held me back from expressing my views. What I'm saying is that solidarity towards Germany was key in 1945. Now it's time to make a Marshall plan for Greece that will bring 'justice' to the country, fix our tax-system, etc. Every Greek would welcome that sort of change even it came from abroad. The troika didn't do that at any point. It just sucked money from Greek tax-payers.
- jwdunne 11y ago
  I agree with you in that Greece's debt does need to be substantially restructured because it's unsustainable. I just think the whole "setting of precedence" is what's keeping us fixed in the same place. I don't believe that it sets any sort of precedence where everyone in the union can just not pay their debts. In society, we allow people to negotiate debt repayments in a way that isn't harmful to them and their families. People who can pay their debts and don't need this facility do so. That is the only precedent we should look at: if debt is unsustainable for individuals they are given the opportunity to restructure repayments in a way that is affordable to them without detriment to their life. In Greece, this isn't what's happening. We see relentless spending cuts, stupidly high unemployment and a group of people who know what to do but are being told they can't do it. That and I don't downvote based on something I don't agree with, I just wanted you to know I didn't downvote even though I don't agree with that approach, as much as I really want to. I use downvoting on comments without substance, especially ones that are overtly negative without substance.
  - StavrosK 11y ago
    You're right, nobody is saying "screw it, we just won't pay". Hell, I'd be ecstatic if changes were instituted that reduced bureaucracy, made the public sector simpler and more transparent for citizens, and fostered entrepreneurship, rather than the current climate of uncertainty. Unfortunately, right now, everyone in Greece is paralyzed, because they don't know if, a few months from now, a new tax or law will be instituted that will kill their business, or mean they will no longer be able to feed their family (for the ones that still can). I think this prolonged uncertainty is the biggest problem right now.
- mnglkhn2 11y ago
  The reason the Marshall plan was put in place for Germany was to stop the Russians getting the upper hand in Europe. The choice was between letting Europe become a communist utopia or help the Germans and hence keep EU in the western world. Nothing in geo politics is done out of the goodness of our hearts but for a clear ideological purpose.
- NotableAlamode 11y ago
  Let's look at the facts! The original Marshall plan was worth 5.2% of German GDP (of 1952). Greece has already received 185% of its GDP, in other words, other countries have given Greece already 36 Marshall plans!

by jwdunne 11y ago

atmosx 11y ago

You're free to down-vote me, I don't care :-) I can assure no hard feelings about it... I had expressed many unpopular opinions on HN and had been downvoted many times, never held me back from expressing my views. What I'm saying is that solidarity towards Germany was key in 1945. Now it's time to make a Marshall plan for Greece that will bring 'justice' to the country, fix our tax-system, etc. Every Greek would welcome that sort of change even it came from abroad. The troika didn't do that at any point. It just sucked money from Greek tax-payers.

jwdunne 11y ago
I agree with you in that Greece's debt does need to be substantially restructured because it's unsustainable. I just think the whole "setting of precedence" is what's keeping us fixed in the same place. I don't believe that it sets any sort of precedence where everyone in the union can just not pay their debts. In society, we allow people to negotiate debt repayments in a way that isn't harmful to them and their families. People who can pay their debts and don't need this facility do so. That is the only precedent we should look at: if debt is unsustainable for individuals they are given the opportunity to restructure repayments in a way that is affordable to them without detriment to their life. In Greece, this isn't what's happening. We see relentless spending cuts, stupidly high unemployment and a group of people who know what to do but are being told they can't do it. That and I don't downvote based on something I don't agree with, I just wanted you to know I didn't downvote even though I don't agree with that approach, as much as I really want to. I use downvoting on comments without substance, especially ones that are overtly negative without substance.
- StavrosK 11y ago
  You're right, nobody is saying "screw it, we just won't pay". Hell, I'd be ecstatic if changes were instituted that reduced bureaucracy, made the public sector simpler and more transparent for citizens, and fostered entrepreneurship, rather than the current climate of uncertainty. Unfortunately, right now, everyone in Greece is paralyzed, because they don't know if, a few months from now, a new tax or law will be instituted that will kill their business, or mean they will no longer be able to feed their family (for the ones that still can). I think this prolonged uncertainty is the biggest problem right now.
mnglkhn2 11y ago
The reason the Marshall plan was put in place for Germany was to stop the Russians getting the upper hand in Europe. The choice was between letting Europe become a communist utopia or help the Germans and hence keep EU in the western world. Nothing in geo politics is done out of the goodness of our hearts but for a clear ideological purpose.
NotableAlamode 11y ago
Let's look at the facts! The original Marshall plan was worth 5.2% of German GDP (of 1952). Greece has already received 185% of its GDP, in other words, other countries have given Greece already 36 Marshall plans!