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> These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. What if a country destroys, literally, the entire conti

by atmosx 11y ago

> These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. What if a country destroys, literally, the entire continent killing around 80 million ppl, 70 years ago. What should we do with this country? Should show some solidarity and pardon it's debt or "abide to the rules" and ask them to pay their dues to all the countries they created damages?

kedean 11y ago
War reparations are in no way related to repeatedly breaking the terms of bailouts.
- atmosx 11y ago
  There's no way any country in the world could keep up with troika's bailout terms given the damage these terms did to the economy. The IMF already noted that the "plan" was wrong. Every single forecast was out by a huge margin, what exactly more do we need to die? Stop breathing? WHat Varoufakis says is that we don't want money under terms the country can't honor, and the troika asks repeadetly for him to be removed. Maybe someone like Stournaras who signs any paper without asking questions would be more fit.
  - htns 11y ago
    The funny thing is that now we will see whether that was true.
jwdunne 11y ago
I haven't down voted you because this has been on the tip of my tongue but I've held it back because it's such a low-ball response which achieves nothing. I think this whole "look at X" is why we're in this chaos. We can point fingers this way ad infinitum but it's only served to keep the EU in stalemate over this issue.
- atmosx 11y ago
  You're free to down-vote me, I don't care :-) I can assure no hard feelings about it... I had expressed many unpopular opinions on HN and had been downvoted many times, never held me back from expressing my views. What I'm saying is that solidarity towards Germany was key in 1945. Now it's time to make a Marshall plan for Greece that will bring 'justice' to the country, fix our tax-system, etc. Every Greek would welcome that sort of change even it came from abroad. The troika didn't do that at any point. It just sucked money from Greek tax-payers.
  - jwdunne 11y ago
    I agree with you in that Greece's debt does need to be substantially restructured because it's unsustainable. I just think the whole "setting of precedence" is what's keeping us fixed in the same place. I don't believe that it sets any sort of precedence where everyone in the union can just not pay their debts. In society, we allow people to negotiate debt repayments in a way that isn't harmful to them and their families. People who can pay their debts and don't need this facility do so. That is the only precedent we should look at: if debt is unsustainable for individuals they are given the opportunity to restructure repayments in a way that is affordable to them without detriment to their life. In Greece, this isn't what's happening. We see relentless spending cuts, stupidly high unemployment and a group of people who know what to do but are being told they can't do it. That and I don't downvote based on something I don't agree with, I just wanted you to know I didn't downvote even though I don't agree with that approach, as much as I really want to. I use downvoting on comments without substance, especially ones that are overtly negative without substance.
    - StavrosK 11y ago
      You're right, nobody is saying "screw it, we just won't pay". Hell, I'd be ecstatic if changes were instituted that reduced bureaucracy, made the public sector simpler and more transparent for citizens, and fostered entrepreneurship, rather than the current climate of uncertainty. Unfortunately, right now, everyone in Greece is paralyzed, because they don't know if, a few months from now, a new tax or law will be instituted that will kill their business, or mean they will no longer be able to feed their family (for the ones that still can). I think this prolonged uncertainty is the biggest problem right now.

by atmosx 11y ago

kedean 11y ago

War reparations are in no way related to repeatedly breaking the terms of bailouts.

atmosx 11y ago
There's no way any country in the world could keep up with troika's bailout terms given the damage these terms did to the economy. The IMF already noted that the "plan" was wrong. Every single forecast was out by a huge margin, what exactly more do we need to die? Stop breathing? WHat Varoufakis says is that we don't want money under terms the country can't honor, and the troika asks repeadetly for him to be removed. Maybe someone like Stournaras who signs any paper without asking questions would be more fit.
- htns 11y ago
  The funny thing is that now we will see whether that was true.

jwdunne 11y ago

I haven't down voted you because this has been on the tip of my tongue but I've held it back because it's such a low-ball response which achieves nothing. I think this whole "look at X" is why we're in this chaos. We can point fingers this way ad infinitum but it's only served to keep the EU in stalemate over this issue.

atmosx 11y ago
You're free to down-vote me, I don't care :-) I can assure no hard feelings about it... I had expressed many unpopular opinions on HN and had been downvoted many times, never held me back from expressing my views. What I'm saying is that solidarity towards Germany was key in 1945. Now it's time to make a Marshall plan for Greece that will bring 'justice' to the country, fix our tax-system, etc. Every Greek would welcome that sort of change even it came from abroad. The troika didn't do that at any point. It just sucked money from Greek tax-payers.
- jwdunne 11y ago
  I agree with you in that Greece's debt does need to be substantially restructured because it's unsustainable. I just think the whole "setting of precedence" is what's keeping us fixed in the same place. I don't believe that it sets any sort of precedence where everyone in the union can just not pay their debts. In society, we allow people to negotiate debt repayments in a way that isn't harmful to them and their families. People who can pay their debts and don't need this facility do so. That is the only precedent we should look at: if debt is unsustainable for individuals they are given the opportunity to restructure repayments in a way that is affordable to them without detriment to their life. In Greece, this isn't what's happening. We see relentless spending cuts, stupidly high unemployment and a group of people who know what to do but are being told they can't do it. That and I don't downvote based on something I don't agree with, I just wanted you to know I didn't downvote even though I don't agree with that approach, as much as I really want to. I use downvoting on comments without substance, especially ones that are overtly negative without substance.
  - StavrosK 11y ago
    You're right, nobody is saying "screw it, we just won't pay". Hell, I'd be ecstatic if changes were instituted that reduced bureaucracy, made the public sector simpler and more transparent for citizens, and fostered entrepreneurship, rather than the current climate of uncertainty. Unfortunately, right now, everyone in Greece is paralyzed, because they don't know if, a few months from now, a new tax or law will be instituted that will kill their business, or mean they will no longer be able to feed their family (for the ones that still can). I think this prolonged uncertainty is the biggest problem right now.